Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok... I have been doing a lot of reading lateley.
Everywhere I turn people are recommending that you feed your snakes frozen food.
Can anyone tell me?
What is the point of having a snake if you don't get to watch it hunt?
Have you ever wondered why frozen mice are so cheap?
What are the feeding it?
What kind of conditions are the prey being subjected too?
Do you like eating frozen dinners?
Do you like putting dead things in warm water?
Have you ever wondered why a juvenile king will refuse to eat?

I will tell you why!
Snakes like to kill and eat there food at the same time.
Juvenile snakes will eat an average of 3 small live mice per week.
If you think that watching a snake kill a mouse is inhumane, perhaps you should sell it on c-list and buy a kitten.
If you think that your snake will bite you because you gave it a live mouse inside it's cage, you are wrong.
Saying that a mouse will kill a snake is absolutely rediculous.
If a mouse killed my snake, I would say that my snake wanted to die! How else could this happen!

I like many started out useing frozen mice.
I became very tired of looking at freezer burnt frozen mice at the pet store, being handled by people who didn't wash their hands, tired of puting dead things in warm water then dripping dead mouse juice on my carpet, only to see my snakes turn there noses up to food that stinks like a dirty closet, tired of my wife telling me that this is dicusting, tired of checking to see if my snake ate there frozen dinner, tired of throwing money in the trash can.

So if you are like me and you are tired of this crap that people have crammed down your throat then do something about it!
It may be inconvient or more costly to feed your snake live mice but it sure is cooler. If you can't afford to buy your snake live food you should give it away to someone who can. If you don't have a source for live mice you may have to grow your own!

Thats not crazy it's called dedication. You will appeciate your snake more and your snake will appreciate you!

Interesting!

I feed my pyros and pituophis fresh mice that are pre-killed if the mouse is old enough to bite the snake. Any self respecting mouse will do it's damnedest to defend itself, and rodent bites are nasty.

I raise my own mice. I live in a rural area where doing this is not going to bother the neighbors. All the dirty mouse litter goes into the garden. In an urban area this enterprise would be unfeasible. So ft mice would be appropriate for those folks.

I have a freezer full of ft as backup, which generally winds up being rotated out and donated to my local wildlife rescue for their raptors and owls. I think ft is just fine if properly harvested, stored, and thawed out. I am just sort of lazy and find it easier to go out to the mouse barn and get a fresh mouse than to have to thaw something out. (I hate cooking, too! LOL!)
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I raise my own mice and I stun them before I feed to my snakes by wacking them on the corner of a desk or something. I have seen a mouse kill and eat the brains of a baby Boa constrictor. Well I didn't witness it, I was a lot younger and I threw the mouse in and went off riding my bike. I came back to see the mouse having Boa Brains for a snack! I have also witnessed mice get in a bite or two before the snake can finnish him off. Imagine a 300 dollar snake with an infected mouth or eye because the mouse was able to get in a good bite before it ran out of breath!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

First of all . I don't think the snakes give a sh!t!

They'll eat anything, anytime they want.

In the wild I have come upon snakes eating dead old rotten food.

In my collection i feed both live and frozen. It seems to me the snakes don't care if the mouse is alive, stunned, frozen ect. They are living in a box. What hunting opportunities do you think they have living in a box?

A lot of my agressive flrida kings come rushing out of the cage even when i change the water and chase me across the room trying to grab my feet. Does that suffice for hunting?..

Mouse comes in *bang* game over.
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www.Bluerosy.com

talk about SPEWING ignorance... just W O W
FROZEN DINNERS? WTF??? mouse juice on the carpet!
hunting???
W O W

just an FYI snakes that dont eat are not happy or are sick it has NOTHING to do with "hunting" please PLEASE read some more.

good luck

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Maybe you should take your snake for a crawl for excercise too. LOL
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Steve W.

This sounds good on paper, but you obviously haven't had enough years of experience to know and see all the many things that can and do go very wrong once in a while when feeding live.

Did a mouse kill a 5 foot Indigo I owned in the early 70's when it chewed the snake's tail to the vertebrae from the very tip to the cloaca?....YES!,..it DID!

Have I seen snakes with bitten up mouths and eyes(permanently blinded) because of bites?...YES!...I have!

Have I seen big boa constrictors totally shredded up from a rat being left in the cage with them?...YES!, I have!

I have seen snakes kill live animals many countless thousands of times, so I don't get excited when I see it, so I don't find the need to do it. In fact, there isn't a need to do it. There are far too many good reasons to feed frozen/thawed instead. Also, you don't have to soak the rodents themselves in water to thaw them, just leave them out on a tray in front of a fan and they thaw out in no time and are dry as a bone. Or put them in a plasic bag then put them in warm water. Again, they will be dry as a bone.

You can never tell me live is the only way, or "best" way, you just think it is for some reason.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If you knew enough to get your frozen prey from one of the reputable businesses that many of us use, and stop buying the freezer burnt garbage from pet stores, you wouldn't have a problem with it.

Anyway, you definitely need to "read up" for another four decades, then get back with me on this and compare notes..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You got Thomas Davis and DMong to agree on something. THat has to be a record of some sort.

But seriously, WTF? You "Need" to feed live? You need to provide stimulation true--the chance to move, explore, etc. You don't need to feed live to keep your snakes from exhibiting signs of stress or unhappiness.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Also you can put the prey in different area of the cage, so they have to find it. and for a lot of people on here, they have a lot more then just a few snakes. I won't give up my snakes and I won't feed live. Thank you very much.
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis

how long do you think it takes a snake to learn its cage, any cage.

now consider, how long does it take to learn a shoe or sweater box???????????? A live rodent is a snake exercise wheel, hahahahahahahahaha, well its not that good, but its all we got.

What that means Dmong is, back in the seventies you did not know your bum from a hole in the ground. Do not lock a lived rodent in with a snake is not going to eat it. Its a very simple concept.

You could have learned to keep your indigo healthy or you kill the mouse. Hmmmmmmmm thats how we have shoebox husbandry now. hahahahahahahahahaha

I kept many indigos and a mouse were never have a chance, not a chance in heck with a healthy indigo. The poor mouse/rodent, would be ripped from here to heck and back, in a split second.

I hope you learned what a healthy snake looks like since then, hahahahahahahaha

Yes, I know you do now, so why do you live by rules you made when you did not know your bum from a hole in the ground. In most cases Dmoung, its called rationalization, you rationalize stuff to make it easy on you, as in to defend your decisions. The truth is, these kinds of snakes KILL they prey and in nature, they kill REAL prey and normally much larger and stronger then what we feed them. That is their natural design.

...the folks that we are trying to target here are the ones who don't yet know their butts from a hole in the ground. Once they get their husbandry straight, then yeah, if it blows their skirt up then feed live. But many, many keepers are gonna read the op's rant and throw in a handfull of live rodents without knowing the nuances of captive husbandry. Then we will once again have the tail-less or brainless indigo (boa, burm, ball, corn) scenario. That's all I'm sayin' buddy.

Will

That is exactly what I was saying too Will, but FR felt the need to put his typical "spin" on it...LOL!

The main point is do not EVER toss a live rodent in and walk away. Because we all know what can happen when a snake doesn't want to eat it what can potentially happen. I think everyone agrees that if live needs to be fed, make sure you see it get dispatched before walking away and leaving the prey in the cage..LOL!

regards, ~Doug

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This is a perfect example of how FR sees thru FR colored glasses! He is so bent on prooving he has such a superior insite on topics, that he actually does the opposite, lol. His comment was not constructive at all but self serving.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>This is a perfect example of how FR sees thru FR colored glasses! He is so bent on prooving he has such a superior insite on topics, that he actually does the opposite, lol. His comment was not constructive at all but self serving.
>>-----

and seriously lacking even the slightest hint of intelligence
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
Draybars Snakes

Hi Jorge,

I actually don't disagree with Frank's post at all. Back when I didn't know my arse from a hole in the ground, I allowed a couple of rodents the opportunity to de-spine a snake or two. Now if I allowed that to happen, I would personally deserve to be chewed on by a rodent, because I know better. I just think we need to make that distinction. I just think that if a keeper is going to feed live, he or she better be within sight of that cage until the rodent is dispatched, otherwise bad things can and do happen.

Will

I have a lot of respect for you, and many others on this forum who seem to know FR better than I do. I realize that he has been around for a long time and has paid his dues. However since I started hanging out here on this forum, I have been trying to figure him out! Why would someone who is so smart constantly write in a condescending tone, and never ending insults to make others feel stupid? You basically said the same thing he did but man what a difference! Maybe I am the jerk here and should stop giving FR a hard time but geeez, can you give me some of the cool-aid first, so I can see what you guys see? By the way thanks for your work with the Eastern Kings, I have a pair of Wide Banded S. Geaorgia's, that are said to be from yours and Kevin Enge's bloodline. I love them and would not ever let them get an infection from a mouse bite. Thanks for your input!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jorge,
You will figure it (him) out over time. Over time .

Whats happens is this forum explodes and it takes a hwile for people to adjust. Their first repsonse is always the same . To defend. After a year or two what FR says become common knowledge and things take a turn where everyone adopts what he is saying.

it is just the way of herpetoculture.

Now people will really hate this answer because i gave props to FR (or so it seems) but really this is what happens.

When the dust settles it is all good for the snakes and everyone involved.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think unless these folks get to spend time with him in person and in the field, they will never understand him.

The first time he called me a ding dong was in person in 1979. When he types it on the forum I just crack up like it was that day all over again.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Thanks for the kind words sir. Enjoy them, they are great snakes. I don't think that I'd ever have to fear those GAs not addressing a live mouse or rat with some love. Mine eat when shedding, breeding, gravid, at 50F, and in every other situation. They are machines in the finest sense of the word.

Like Rainer and some others here, I always try to listen to the content and context of what Frank is telling me, not always the manner in which he does it. But, to be sure, when he calls me a ding dong, or calls me out, I pay attention because he has a reason for doing so, and its always (or seems so to me anyway) for the benefit of the animal. Thanks again.

Will

What it means MR. "know it all" is I was a 8 to 12 year old kid at the time, so I did things a kid would do back then.

So what's your excuse???

You STILL don't know young Bung-Ho** from a whole in the ground.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Why do you think that w/c snakes are so scared up. Because of hunting and eating live prey. Like Doug said buying from a good supplier is the key. One time while I was waiting for my supply to come in from my supplier, I went to the local pet story and bought some from them. All my snakes regurgitated the rats. I learned my lesson. And only get them from someone I trust. I make Dam sure I never run out again. This happened when I had my pythons. Just my $1.25
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis

Your post is a rather strange one. Crammed down your throat?? HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What??? Are you serious??!

Are you that jazzed up about watching a snake " hunt " for its' prey??? Does it really mean that much to you??? If so, think about why you even keep snakes to begin with. The point of keeping snakes is not all about watching it hunt. There is a little more to it than that.

Frozen mice are cheap because they are produced in bulk. Conditions and food for the prey may differ, but I have an idea of how the prey I buy are treated and what they are fed. With that being said, I am confident that they are being treated humanely.

As far as going back to the killing topic, many of my snakes still go about " killing " the thawed prey I give them.

Mice and rats can fight back and will do damage to snakes, if left uneaten, and they can kill them. Think about it..why wouldn't they??? If they are fighting for their lives in a cage, they are doing just that. You spoke about how feeding the snakes live mice is, your words, " cooler ". That shows how little regard you yourself have for the prey items to begin with. Yes, it is natural for snakes to eat prey, live or dead, and it is a fascinating thing to watch how a snake would eat live in the wild, but it is not about a " cool " factor.

There is nothing morally wrong with feeding live either, but, if frozen rodents that are humanely euthanized are available to those who keep snakes, not only is it doing us a service by providing us with quality food to the snakes we keep, buying frozen mice prevents the prey item to go thru fighting for its' life, and the stress that ensues. See, it is about thinking about other living organisms other than yourself at times. See how that works???

Do you keep your own cows and chickens to kill yourself for burgers, brisket, and chicken tenders? Didn't think so.

Maybe the problem is the quality of the rodents you are purchasing and maybe how you are feeding your snakes. If your snakes are turning their noses up to food you are offering, maybe the quality of the food is subpar, and you should shop around and buy better quality food. Then maybe your snakes would eat the better quality food, and you would not be throwing more money away. If your juvenile king is not eating, maybe the conditions in the cage are not where they need to be.

And what is this about dripping dead mouse juice on the carpet? How would that even happen? If you used an assigned plate/platter to lay out the mice onto and use tongs, as you feed, maybe this would not happen. No wonder the wifey is not particularly happy about that.

And are you yourself ready to grow your own mice??? Are you ready for the food cost to feed them alone, the bedding cost, and the most awesome factor..the God-awful stench!!!! LOL!!!!! Are you really THAT dedicated??????

Come on!! Calm down and re-assess your thoughts on this one.

If you need help finding a better quality place to buy rodents from, simply ask, and many of us would be more than happy to point you towards a few good directions.

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Genesis 1:1

Since you mentioned it were are a few good places to get feeders from? I see rodent pro but there they come in bags of 100 and they would go bad before I could use them all. Then there is Laynelabe.com were it looks like you can get smaller orders from. I would rather order less and pay shipping to keep stuff fresh more often. I have 3 snakes one eats pinkies, one eats peach fuzzys, and the other eats fuzzys.

Also my snakes try to kill there f/t mice all the time. I'll take there food and dangle it by them then when they bite on some times I'll move it around just a little more, and they go nuts wrapping around there food.

I hate auto correct. On iPhones and iPads.

i used to use rodentpro, but recently switched to layne labs and couldn't be happier.

since you're in vegas, shipping will be much lower going with layne since they're in central california.

Cool thanks for the info.

>>I hate auto correct. On iPhones and iPads.

I might just be the guy here who knows more about apple gear than he knows about snakes! Two solutions:

1) Try settings>general>keyboard and you should find a way to turn off auto correct.

2) But even easier (because i like the feature LESS in text messaging than email) start your text message with a "z". Then use the finger-touch to move the cursor in front of the z you just typed. You can then type the rest of your message (it'll end with the z, of course) without auto-correct kicking in. and i imagine when you're done you can go to the end and erase the z. Let me know if that works for you. I know it worked in some earlier iOSs.

Cool thanks im trying that here and so far it works thats awsome. Very easy to do. The Z works good. Just have to look all over after. Thanks.

I primarily have used Big Cheese Rodent Factory since it started. Very nice and clean prey items. They package the smaller sizes you mentioned in packages of 50, and they build the shipping box around your order, not the other way around.

Also have used American Rodent Supply as well. Good quality mice as well!!! Very good company! They also pack in sizes of 50 on the smaller sizes.

I have also heard good things about Loxahatchee Rodents.

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Genesis 1:1

I used to use Rodent Pro and Mice Direct but shipping charges got outrageously expensive.....
Then I switched to Big Cheese...they were competitive for a while then their shipping went crazy......

Now I use American Rodent and they ship for free on bigger orders except in the summer.......lol

All have a great product and feed them nothing but multi-nutritional mouse feed.......Not dog food.....None are lab mice or rats that lived through some weird experience.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks for the info.

I placed my first order with American Rodent Supply today. Previously I was using RodentPro, but I saved over $45 on the same exact order with ARS. Hope the quality is what others have noted.

Really? I tried ordering from ARS but got a better rate with rodentpro. That's strange. It probably depends on quantity I guess. I'm going to get a quote from ARS again. Maybe it changed. hmmm...

I order at the most around 200 to 300 mice. I get the best rates at bigcheese and rodentpro. I like how rodentpro is resealable whereas some companies vacuum seal the bag. Some people prefer this way but I really like the convenience of resealing.

Tony
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You can never have only one snake!

N/M.

Hi Steve,

I either order from big cheese or rodentpro, both very good. I order rodentpro nowadays. Just ordered from them today. You know if you speak to them by phone you can get increments of 50 per size. I have 2 kings that eat small and large pinks, 2 eating peach fuzzies, 4 eating fuzzies and 1 eating hops and weans.

I like the way the mouse sizes are specific and the fact that peach fuzzies is not as often available. They are also in resealable bags. The rodents look very healthy and I never seen poop, bedding or urine spots or stains in the bags. Never been disappointed with them and very helpful. They have me as a customer pretty much permanently!

This question should probably be in the other forum but I am not the person patrolling. I do hope this helps you out as this is my experience with rodentpro. I am pretty certain you will feel the same way about them too! I hear Layne Rodents is a good one too!

Tony

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You can never have only one snake!

Good post Bill.

Regarding the OP...very sorry your battle cry to rally the troops didn't go over so well, and actually seemed to back fire.

I too have seen the 8' boa brought in to the shop with a 10" section of spine and rib cage fully exposed from having been offered and left in the cage with a live rat...and this definitely wasn't cool. Now of course I blame the owner for this-NOT the rat, but it does go to show the inherent risks of feeding live.

I offer FT to all of mine. And thankfully I've never had a bad encounter between a thawed mouse and a snake. I will, however, offer live rodents to finicky snakes if this is what it takes to get them to eat. Again, with no problems.

For the hobbyist with just a few animals, feeding live all the time may not be a huge financial expenditure, but for the ones with large collections, FT are without a doubt, the way to go.

I tong feed most of my subs and adults. They violently attack and constrict the thawed mouse usually every time. This tells me in their little peanut sized brain, they think they have successfully stalked, overtaken, and secured their prey. Their "need" to hunt and kill, has been met. Although I've never really considered this as a legitimate need of theirs, I tell you this with the hope it makes you feel better about your concerns regarding it.

I personally have never enjoyed watching live animals get killed and eaten...let alone eaten alive. For me, FT food is just another advancement in reptile husbandry. And I'm glad for it.

Just curious, who's trying to cram something down your throat and force you to do something you don't want to do? If it wasn't for the benefit of your snakes, I would tell you to do the opposite of what someones trying to force you to do, and continue feeding live only...just out of principal. LOL!

Good luck with your research.

.
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Genesis 1:1

Who is this?
First of all.....I think you have more READING to do.....Or forget that, learn yourself and quit freakin reading......LOL

Secondly.....stay away from PetStupid and buy from reputable Frozen Rodent Companies.....

Lastly.....If you REALLY think I should give up all my snakes because I feed Thawed Mice (not frozen) you are delusional.....

Live mice can and will damage and kill snakes....it has happened and it is inevitable that it will happen again, until folks stop feeding live....Stunned is okay....lol

The main (not only) reason snakes turn down food is because husbandry is incorrect.......or you are offering the wrong food......live or dead.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've always found frozen food generally accepted. The splendida i have now I've raised from a hatchling on frozen and it's never refused one (fed every 2-3 days). I used to feed live, finally concluded there's no reason for me to subject hundreds or thousands of mammals to the experience of fleeing, being caught, bitten, constricted, compared to the alternative to a knock on the head and it's over. Thereafter, I had times when I could more easily get "live" food than frozen but i'd kill it first. Frozen's usually cheaper than live, for me. I never had a problem of frozen rodents going to waste, though i can imagine if you only have one snake you'll sometimes find it won't eat what's offered. But if you're in that boat, what do you do when it rejects a live offering? If you want to economize, offer frozen and if it's not eaten in 10-15 minutes remove it and refreeze it. I've done that and i've never had a problem with it. I can watch videos of snakes capturing and consuming live prey if I want to see that, but i don't think I'd consider it entertainment. I could explain ways to avoid dripping thawed mouse juice on your carpet, but i suspect you can figure that out yourself. I suppose it ultimately comes down to whether you are entertained watching a snake chase, catch, kill and eat prey (after the first, or tenth, or hundredth time) or whether any empathy kicks in for the mammal as well. Some people are snake lovers, not mice lovers, but I've seen snake lovers object to the idea of using live snakes as food.

Hey, folks on the forum: maybe someone can help deviney1 but telling how long you've kept frozen rodents without them getting freezer burn or otherwise "going bad", which seems to be a concern to him. I know I've had frozen food for family consumption that i've kept for months--in fact, you can google safe freezer procedures and you'll find lots of frozen foods can be safely kept for months. So depending on how many animals deviney1, or other keepers, have, it seems they'd be able to buy in the small quantities available from some vendors, and still use them up before they'd go bad.

deviney1, let me say it might seem like people here are beating up on you. I hope that's not the case, the forum can be extremely useful and a great place for sharing ideas. May I suggest tactfully that you came on sorta strong, with a position not generally shared here, and that may have generated the tenor of the replies. But if you'd simply asked nicely, "hey guys, why frozen instead of live?" the content of the answers would still be the same.

There are lots of reasons--which folks here have shared--why frozen's better. That's why so many sellers point it out as a selling feature, if they're selling snakes that are already eating frozen/thawed: they've already gotten the babies to a better place for you.

One other advantage: if you ever "dust" your food with calcium or vitamin supplements, it's very easy to dip the rear end of a damp f/t rodent in the supplement, but it can be a lot messier doing that with live food.

The longer you keep snakes and the more species you keep, you will find that most could care less if it's live or dead. Kingsnakes are one of the species that could generally care less.
Although it rarely happens, a live adult rodent can injure a snake when their constricting it.
Do which ever trips your trigger but your kingsnake most likely could care less.
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Randy Whittington

>>The longer you keep snakes and the more species you keep, you will find that most could care less if it's live or dead. Kingsnakes are one of the species that could generally care less.
>>Although it rarely happens, a live adult rodent can injure a snake when their constricting it.
>>Do which ever trips your trigger but your kingsnake most likely could care less.
>>-----
>>Randy Whittington

WOW....that even got Randy to post something......LOL

You gonna be in Daytona?
See you there again......I need to talk Situla & Diones with ya......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I wont be able to make it this year for the first time in about 10 years. I've had bad back problems for a few months now and just can't take that long of a drive right now. Too much jarring around.
I really hate that I can't make it too. I always look forward to Daytona and seeing a lot of you guys I only see once a year.
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Randy Whittington

>>I wont be able to make it this year for the first time in about 10 years. I've had bad back problems for a few months now and just can't take that long of a drive right now. Too much jarring around.
>>I really hate that I can't make it too. I always look forward to Daytona and seeing a lot of you guys I only see once a year.
>>-----
>>Randy Whittington

Well crap....LOL
If there is one next year I will see you then.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

A surefire way to tell if the live mice you are feeding to your snakes can injure the snake or not is hold the mouse firmly in your hand, not just by the tail. You may wear a glove if you are chicken.(LOL) You can even hold the struggling mouse up to your eye to get a real good look at it's teeth, or lack thereof. Teeth is what the snake might see before the mouse bites it on the cornea.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

No offense, but your welcome to do what you want. Just because you read something does not mean your obligated to do it.

I agree, live mice are better, and only because it allows the snakes to do what they are designed to do. Kill their prey.

And your right, they appear to like to kill their prey, and they are friggin good at it. That is their design.

Let me take a stab at why people feed Frozen, hmmmmmmmm they want to. They are easily controlled by what they read. In England, its the law. They keep animals so they can control the animals and take away anything and everything natural to the animals. Etc.

About why its cheaper, this is a funny one as I am a mouse breeder. Normally we freeze mice we cannot sell alive. So in the begining it was EXCESS mice. But that has now turned around.

It takes more time and that means more money to freeze mice, yet they are cheaper, hmmmmmmmmmm Rodent breeders are not that smart.

The big labs, that breed rodents for medical testing, dump tens of thousands of dead rodents on the market for almost nothing. The big rodent internet businesses, buy these rodents to sell on SPECIAL. hahahahahahahaha (good luck with that)

So, the question is, your in the states, its legal to feed live, then do it, if you want. End of that story. Why would you care what others do?

To those ding dongs that have to protect their animals from all possible harm. STOP IT. Snakes are designed to kill rodents, Its their JOB. I think its also about keeping baseball cards, many of you do not care about the animals, you care about the looks. You surely do not want a baseball card with a tooth mark on it. You want perfect.

Well you ding dongs, tooth marks on wild snakes is PERFECT, its what they do.

If you only respected the snake for being a snake and not a baseball card.

That's why I let my hybrid wolves out at midnite to hunt in the neighborhood.
I keep 10 of them together because they are pack animals and cunning hunters with complex social skills. It's a shame to see them treated like your weak family "pets" just being fed science diet and table scraps!

They generally hunt down stray cats and dogs etc.
The occasional infirm senior, that's sad , but it's the circle of life you know....
Kids that are out, that get eaten... Well I figure that's on the parents you know.
There is a curfew for reasons and bad parenting is intolerable!

I don't know why I did this! Lol.
I'm so ashamed. Lol. Ha!

So then why do you even bother wearing shoes and clothes to a restaurant FR?, that's not natural for a human being to do either my friend... Is it only because you will get arrested on the spot?..HAHA!!

C'mon man, let's be real here for just ONCE!, can we????..

When a snake of yours gets it's occular lens crushed in by a rat bite, then how would it be "all about the snakes" as you are always touting to everyone. You just like to make waves about damn near everything here when you are bored is all. If someone says white, you say black, if someone says something is wrong, you say it's right, if someone feeds clean, well-kept frozen rodents, they are "ding-dongs" for chrissakes.

Am I saying anyone that feeds live is a "ding-dong"?, hell no, because I have done it zillions of times in the past, especially years ago. There is also no need to do it now, and ones that eat live are no better or worse off than snakes that eat great quality F/T, simple as that.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very good post Doug. You are echoing what many think and feel.

Now, give him his Jello puddin' pop, so he can get back to swinging on the swingset on the playground...LOL!!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Just for the record.

I used to have Oregon rubber boas that ate Vienna sausages.

What does this have to do with this thread? Absolutly nothing. I am just still amazed that they did this. And I had approx 15 of them that did.

No lie.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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www.Bluerosy.com

That's incredible! My bull snake once ate a raw chicken heart. I just happened to have some chicken hearts on hand and wanted to see if he would eat one.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I certainly believe it too. Especially since some things like canned tuna water, and chicken broth, etc... work on certain stubborn hatchlings as well. I fed chicken necks to my Indigo's fairly often in the late 60's-70's. Not real good for them on a steady basis because they are not a whole animal, but they helped supplement rodents at the time and were DIRT CHEAP! and easy to get whenever you needed them..LOL!

I also fed a big Burmese python of mine in the early 80's a big "Cookin' Good" whole roaster chicken from the crocery store after setting it out for a while and just set the oven on as low as it would go to just slightly warm it up some for a bit..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

....Geez Doug, I did the same thing! Those rosters sure do make a burm's skin shiny, don't they. That's some funny stuff.

Will

HAHAA!!!,...that is some funny stuff for sure Will..LMAO!!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

How did you discover they liked it? Accident (old Reeses commercial comes to mind) or on purpose (old Life cereal commercial here). Too funny.

How natural is that?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I have ingested High Fructose Corn Syrup at one time or another in my life.

Now Jorge, considering what HFCS is, how natural is that???? HAHA!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah I try to stay away from that stuff too, but it's everywhere!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

It is everywhere!

BUT...remember this...if you BOND the HFCS with healthy eating habits, even though it is scientifically proven to be bad for the human body, then, over time, as it raises levels of unhealthy heart conditions, increased triglyceride levels, and weight gain, you will have the understanding that no matter what science says, bonding the two will create a false sense of security......LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

>>How natural is that?
>>-----

Hell we eat hot dogs. Is there any real meat in them?
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Honestly..

I try not to think about that Ciny. LOL

I haven't eaten Margeine since Thomas mentioned it's produced by the plastic companys.......

>>Honestly..
>>
>>I try not to think about that Ciny. LOL
>>
>>I haven't eaten Margeine since Thomas mentioned it's produced by the plastic companys.......

Butter in moderation is much better than the synthetic Margarines. I have to agrrrr, I have to agrrrreeee, with Davis. Did I just say that?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I try not to eat hot dogs but when I do I eat the Hebrew National ones, at least I feel better about it, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I try not to eat hot dogs but when I do I eat the Hebrew National ones, at least I feel better about it, lol.

I wonder how Kosher hotdogs got started? A jew coveting pork products? lol
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www.Bluerosy.com

Believe me most Jews see Pork as filthy meat, like it says in the Bible, but that's for another forum.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

You don't get it as usual Jorge.

The hot dog (weiner) was originally made with pork. A Jew thought of a way to replicate this with beef. but still taste like pork.

Seems like nothing has changed sine the beginning. A man will always try and be clean on the outside and think they can fool God.

That is what i meant by coveting pork (coveting ie wanting something you can't have). They can't eat it but want to. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>You don't get it as usual Jorge.
>>
>>The hot dog (weiner) was originally made with pork. A Jew thought of a way to replicate this with beef. but still taste like pork.
>>

Sorry boys, the fat girl will have the final word.

Hebrew National do NOT taste like the pork hot dogs. They taste like chicago style beef dogs, you can TELL it is beef. Of course when you wrap it in bacon and deep fry it, that is a different mess.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

You mean Rainer really DOESN'T know all there is to know about pork and beef hotdogs either????

GOSH!, what a surprise!!..LMAO!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's me. I would rather be a ding dong and feed my snakes food that wont bite them in the eye (a wound that does big permanent damage) than feed them live food with teeth and hope the snake survives the ordeal of eating intact. I have several snakes and they all are happy to eat pre-killed or stunned food, or even ft if I bother to thaw one out. In fact, one of my snakes prefers his food not moving even though he just eats harmless crawlers.

I am a retired farmer and have raised all sorts of livestock. I always humanely killed my food animals before preparing them for the table. I suppose it would be more "natural" to just go out to the pasture and run a cow down and start whacking away on it right then and there but the cow might strenuously object!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

". I suppose it would be more "natural" to just go out to the pasture and run a cow down...."
Dude you crack me up! Lol

You make me feel less strange! Lol.

Me too!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I agree. But I would take it a step further; those poor, deprived orca's and tigers at 6 Flags Marine World should be fed live seals and gazelles, so they can hunt and kill like nature intended. Additionally I'm sure live seals and gazelles are cheaper to maintain than the junk they're probably being fed now.

Another way to look at it is that we, the cruel, uncaring, selfish humans that we are, are robbing these prey animals of their destiny...which is to be killed and/or eaten alive. Hahahahha!

Here's my point: nature doesn't pick sides, clearly. However, there is the almighty food chain, and this does favor the predator over the prey. In the wild, the predator usually triumphs, but not always without a fight. This is why we do observe the occasional scarred up wc snake. These are simply battle scars. So why, would we subject an animal in our charge, and care, to be faced with potential injury at every feeding? Does the snake really NEED to hunt and kill to feel like a "complete snake"? Is its self confidence and self image some how hurt by this - by NOT being able to hunt and kill? Really!?? Hahahaha!!! I think not, and it seems unecessary to me. A hungry snake is GONNA get his dinner, regardless. All of my snakes eagerly await feeding time, no matter what's on the menu - FT or Live. And I accommodate. I don't starve out a snake who prefers live, in an effort to force it to eat FT. Whatever it prefers is fine with me. I GIVE IT CHOICES. Hahahaha! And my snakes that eat FT (which is 95% of my collection) are more than eager to take the thawed mouse from the tongs. Must of them go through all the motions of attacking and killing. They don't know the difference based on my observations.

Now, if we should, at all costs, attempt to simulate every aspect of nature, and all of its inherent risks, then should we not subject our animals to ALL of the risks? How 'bout all the parasites? Is there a vendor I can buy some parasites from to supplement their diet? Maybe we should introduce an occasional skunk or racoon into the cage once in a while to liven things up and impose a little real-life stress on them, that I'm sure they're so disappointed in missing out on now in captivity. How 'bout feeding gophers to gopher snakes? It's certainly more natural than white mice.

All I'm saying is it's 2011. Reptile husbandry has come a long way since the beginning. There are more pros than cons when it comes to feeding FT...and virtually ZERO risk. This can NOT be said about feeding live.

I almost wonder if you are just playing "Devil's" advocate on this one just to generate some controversy. Hmmmmm?
Frank is a clever guy so I really don't know.

There you go using logic again1 You have to throw away all inteligence and become one with the snake. Feel what they feel, and think like they think. Maybe even eat some live mice so you can experience the thrill of mashing a live one in your teeth!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Maybe even eat some live mice so you can experience the thrill of mashing a live one in your teeth!
Feel what is is like to get bit in the eye! Of course, you would need a prey item comparable in size to a human; like maybe a raccoon or small dog!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Everyone made good points.

Now that I have far fewer snakes, I make a point of playing a little tug-o-war when I feed a thawed mouse. The snake grabs on and pulls, then constricts. Gives the snake a little excitement I think, a little exercise too.
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Mark

Nm

nm
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Is that like Presbyterian?

I think he's looking at the Forum like we are a cage of herps. He wants to
see who is aggressive just for the sake of aggressiveness whatever the
stimulus. Who just rattles, who just hisses. Who hisses and bites. Which of
us bluffs and scoots away. Who are the shy ones. Who responds to kindness.
Who are the ones that will follow you around because you have a mouse in
hand and feed the (approval) . What does it take to make the meek ones bite.
How much can you tease or bother the compliant ones till they strike.......
He's studying behavior.....

Sometimes like the stereotypical kid we've all been, he's just got to get the stick and "Poke it to make it move!". Lol

We are his cage and just names on the computer screen. For the most part not
real humans with feelings etc.

The trade off is you can gain some good info and it keeps the folks at Tums And other antacids employed!

Of course I could be wrong.......

That's a little insulting but it tends to look like that and he's said about
as much at times.... Lol . Which is not to say he doesn't really care about some of the subjects a great deal.

We always end up talking about FR instead of the original topic. Could that be his agenda?

Such a sweet and kind looking fellow!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

" Could that be his agenda? "

Narcissism at its' finest!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Could that be his agenda? "

Narcissism at its' finest!!!

LOL! Why are you guys spending so much time figuring FR out when it is the snakes you should figure out instead.
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www.Bluerosy.com

You just cant not start stuff....

What's going on?

I would rather just get along and have fun about snakes Dude

As far as behaivior. I think you guys as as wrong about FR as you are about the behavior of your snakes.

..But..

Even if FR was to say "study human behavior" on this forum. That means he also studies snake behavior much more.

So either way you guys are wrong.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Cool, And that's your perogative.

You don't need to defend the big dog, he can take care of himself. Lol.

It weren't an attack pardner, just a comic relief observation.

First of all....
I never claimed to be a seasoned snake keeper or breeder

I was just trying to have some fun here!

Just because you do it does't make it the right way.

Snakes are born killers. Why take that away from them?

Why do you feel you need to quote Target me because I am inexperienced. I read eveyones point of view here and I do take all of it into consideration.

I truely am not knocking anyone for feeding Frozen mice,
I get it its a business and thats what you chose to do.

Take a freaking Joke Guys!

I do know my head from my bum and I am here to learn... I thought we were all here to have fun as well! I know it seems like I was attacking your ways but I never meant it to be that way... It sure did get everyone talking didn't it?

First off, I would put money on it that Frank isn't reading this thread so stop the posturing. Plus I kinda know a secret. He does like when you all disagree with him. Merely because it makes you think. Of course you guys sometimes beat that dead horse. Just a lil tidbit to carry on.

Feeding live. BIG debate always. I would venture to say each and every person here, myself included, has fed live. I have one of my personal snakes that feeds on live. Now remember my background as I continue this tale and point of perspective. My personal snakes are pretty things really. Things I love to look at. Don't breed anything even myself. Both rescue and personal animals MUST be able to do public education. And I run a rescue.

When I feed live, I do so very carefully. Monitor the snake carefully. Watch to ensure that the rodent is dead before going on with anything else. Why? Because a snake that doesn't feel like eating wont. I have seen the repercussions of those times when animals aren't hungry.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Forum being goofy so had to break rant in two phases.
I have never ever been wrong when looking at a snake in my rescue care as to if it was live fed or f/t fed. There is a more alert hunt behavior and more often than not, especially with the pythons, they are more reactive to warm wiggly things like ohhhhh say fingers. Not everyone has a reliable feeding routine. I just happen to have one myself. Tap cage front with hemostats, open right side of cage. Left side is for everything else. Yes they learn the routine. For some strange reason there are people who don't like getting bit.
There may be other circumstances involved. Careless keepers, improper care, too many rodents tossed in at once, too small of enclosure, insecure snake not feeling safe enough to come out of hides. The list goes on. I however am not a normal keeper. I would venture to say that all of us discussing this topic are not. But see care information needs to be tailored to the masses. We need to look at things when we are educating folks. And do not think for a moment you are not responsible for that part of it. You sell that snake, you need to take the time to educate on the care. Nuff Said.
With that all said, do I feed live? Yes some animals. Do I endorse, promote and require f/t feeding of my adopters? Yes. And these photos tell you why.




Rat X Savy

Link

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

But see care information needs to be tailored to the masses

Yes they do Cindy. And when someone HERE says to feed sparingly. heck most people underfeed their snakes. The problem is starving snakes. everyone I talk to says they only feed one mouse per week...(that's what they heard) and to repeat it here just makes things worse. So newbies get confused and do nothing to change their husbandry. And all becaus eof a few neorotics posting their advice.

The problem with talking to the masses is they don't OVERfeed their snakes. They underfeed them.

I have spoken to many buyers over the phone about their husbandry and I get the same issues people post here (over agressive feeders, small 2 year old kings etc). No matter what you tell them they adjust s l o w l e y. So to ask them to offer food more ofetn just makes for a snake that is a bit less starving. But still starved.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"And all becaus eof a few neorotics posting their advice. "

You can't even have a conversation with Cindy without dissing someone instead of just disagreeing and feeling they are wrong in your opinion.

Also noticed you don't dare talk down to Cindy like you do others here who have pretty much said the same thing she is saying.

Why is that?

I wish you could just play nice.

I would much rather just get along with you.