Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i might be purchasing one. i was under the impression that not all citrus pastels carried the whiteout gene, and asked the breeder if this one does carry the whiteout gene - his reply was that all citrus pastels carry the whiteout gene. he's a major breeder and good guy, but admits that he is new to working with these.

so am i getting this wrong? do all citrus pastels carry the whiteout gene?

My understanding is NO, Only certain Citrus Pastels carry the white-out gene. I'm sure others that have more experience working with them will also comment. It is also my understanding that there are certain markers to help tell them apart.

To further comment, A very good friend of mine Clark Tucker produced the first super pastel white-out Calico, produced from a citrus pastel calico x Graziani Pastel. The original Citrus pastel calico male was not a premium example of the morph by any means. However, when crossed with other pastel lines, It brought out the (white-out). My understanding is that the true white-out factor is only expressed when it is shown in the super form: (super pastel or super pastel cross)I also know that not all super forms express the whit-out factor when crossed with a citrus pastel white-out.

actually jason, a citrus super pastel Calico is what i'm looking at.

if what you say is correct, the project seems pretty confusing -very drawn out, and a bit more random than most.

losing it's luster for me if you are indeed correct - my problem with what yr saying is that i've seen folks post whiteout stuff not in super form - so i'm not sure yr 100% correct there, but what do i know. need other breeders to comment.

i do appreciate the info.

Paul, I had encouraged other breeders to comment on your question. The white-out gene in my opinion is indeed very complicated. I also think the Citrus Pastel is a superior grade of pastel. (Not all Pastels are created equal)I too think the citrus pastel queen bee in a prior post was an exceptional looking animal.However, I did not see the white-out effect that the Citrus white-out gene has washed out the sides of other mutations. Mike Bell, also a good friend of mine has worked with the Citrus pastel and also produced some super pastel white-out calicos last season using the citrus pastel. Mike may be another good source for information.

-Jay

actually jason, a citrus super pastel Calico is what i'm looking at.

if what you say is correct, the project seems pretty confusing -very drawn out, and a bit more random than most.

losing it's luster for me if you are indeed correct - my problem with what yr saying is that i've seen folks post whiteout stuff not in super form - so i'm not sure yr 100% correct there, but what do i know. need other breeders to comment.

There is more going on than meets the eye. Not all citrus carry the whiteout gene. I agree there are probably some selling citrus that don't have the whiteout gene. If it was a straight forward one gene type of deal, it wouldn't hold value as well, or be as interesting. No need to be put off by this, you just need to be careful. The whiteout gene does exist without being in the super form, it just doesn't show itself enough to deserve that name. It really shows in the super form with calico also. Who knows what it will do with other things.

Hatchlings

Super Citrus Pastel Calico at a few months old

I beg too differ. The whiteout gene does appear in our whiteout pewter. No super form here.

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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Paul,

As we all know some people advertise animals they are not 100% sure on as being something they are not. Usually by accident... That doesn't mean its true.

Paul,

As we all know some people advertise animals they are not 100% sure on as being something they are not. Usually by accident... That doesn't mean its true.

jason and mike, thanks for all the great info. much appreciated.

snake-lab, i hear you. the individual i'm dealing with is one of the truly big boys in this industry. he may need to inquire a bit further and or explain to me that it truly is as he reports with this particular snake. as you can imagine, theres a big price tag - i trust him, need to make sure he and i truly understand the known factoes of citrus and whiteout.

If it is a super pastel calico, it should show the whiteout. If not why bother. Do you have any pics.

sorry for my double post before. mike i dont have pics to post at the moment, but yr right - thats the place to start. but i'm also trying to gauge the complication level of the project. i like to keep my breeding hobby small, simple, streamlined. space is an issue in my home, so because of these factors holding onto stock to breed back to see what exhitibs what as a super is not what i want right now - i have plenty of that sort of thing with all my recessives. with my codoms i try to be more short term results driven - so this might not be the best fit.

jason and mike, thanks for all the great info. much appreciated.

snake-lab, i hear you. the individual i'm dealing with is one of the truly big boys in this industry. he may need to inquire a bit further and or explain to me that it truly is as he reports with this particular snake. as you can imagine, theres a big price tag - i trust him, need to make sure he and i truly understand the known factoes of citrus and whiteout.

I have a Citrus Pastel Yellowbelly I bought from Amir 4 years ago. He is a good looking animal but by no means looks like the Whiteouts. But the babies he makes are both Whiteouts and normal looking Pastels. I was also concerned about the ones that were not Whiteouts,wondering if they carried the gene or not. So when I talked to Amir about it he explained that the ones that express the Whiteout of coarse have it and the non Whiteouts can make Whiteouts, which I have done.
When they come out of the egg they have completely White heads almost looking like Super Pastels. The Citrus gene also affected the way my Citrus Pastel Ivories look. They are pure white with no yellow coming through on the side or back like typical Pastel Ivories have. I have even had other morphs come out looking different with no Pastel in them that were offspring of the Citrus. Something in the gene is influencing them. Even the normals don't look normal.
I agree it is a difficult morph to explain and there is still alot to learn about how the gene works. It is demanding a heavy price tag and that may scare some people into thinking they are nothing more than a nice looking Pastel.
Hopefully Amir will have some more answers this year about how the gene is working.

I have been working on this project before they were called citrus whietouts and just citrus with a "hidden gene".

I do also talk to amir often on this subject.
Both I and Amir have been hatching some very very weird normals and siblings.
This year I have 1 normal female with flames from a citrus whiteout clutch that I will breed to either a citrus or lesser with what looks to be the hidden gene.

As Jason said earlier that what we do know, obviouslly personal opinion here, is that Citruses are by far the best looking pastel, or a superior pastel line. Now when it comes to the whiteout part and the crazy stuff that comes out there is still a lot to learn... It has been pretty random

Another thing about these is that citruses come in grades.... There are some high grades and some lower grades. The higher grade funky ones are currently being called whiteouts.

Hopefully we will learn more about what exactly is going on with more people within this project!

Look for the citrus enchis, citrus fires, citrus superstripes and those colorful combos..... these tend to glow like no others!
I attached a comparison with a regular pastel next to one of our citruses.

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thanks
Jonathan
Breeders Circle

Until now for me all real Citrus Pastels are Whiteouts because for me it seems that Citrus Pastel is a combo of Citrus X Pastel. Last year I bred my Extreme Citrus Pastel to a classic female and the result was 3 Citrus Pastels, 1 Pastel, 1 Classic and 1 Citrus (Classic which is going brighter with each shed).
This year I also had Citrus Pastels and normal Pastels in each clutch so I thought my thinking was right. But if you have produced Citrus Pastels (Whiteout) with a for me "Citrus Pastel sibling" it seems my thinking was wrong!

I hope we will understand the genetic next time...

Best regards
Markus