Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been interested in learning about how to devenimize snakes, but I don't know where to begin. Can anyone tell me if there are any good resources that are available on the subject? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Jared, try asking this group
venomoid@yahoogroups.com

First, learn how to spell it, then, if you really must tear apart these beautiful creatures, go to school and become a vet. At least this way you won't be like all the other hackers. The fact that you're asking the question and even remotely interested in it says that the latter is probably out of the question though.

While we are on the subject.........

Can you tell me the most efficient way to remove a childs hands, 'cause I don't feel like cleaning up fingerprints anymore.

Thanks.

This is tongue-in-cheek humor and has no basis in reality whatsoever!
Answering in the most common tone of the forum:
You should consider not having children at all then.
Mood altering drugs and other such methods for changing children are not natural and no real parent would even suggest them let alone a clinical procedure such as the commonly garage based hand removal procedure done by redneck butchers!
Or something along those tongue-in-cheek lines.
Karl

If you are not a licensed veterinarian, what you are proposing is to make an amateur butcher's attempt at doing major invasive surgery on a live animal. This is highly illegal in most states, though penalties are not normally enforced because cruelty to snakes is not taken as seriously as cruelty to other animals. However if you are planning to make money at this reprehensible practice, that puts you into the whole other ballpark of "performing veterinary surgery for money without a license". That may be taken more seriously by local authorities.

To do major surgery on a snake in any way that is remotely humane you need anesthesia, analgesia and a respirator. You can't legally buy any of those things without a veterinary license.

The practice of amateur venomoiding without proper drugs or sterile technique is a disgustingly common one, and not one that any halfway ethical or responsible keeper should support.

I agree that you really should learn how to spell and probably should go through vet school before attempting to operate on any snake. That being said I must put out my argument in favor of venomoids and this seems like a good time to do it:
I've read quite a bit about venomoids while looking into getting a family "pet" and ultimately decided against it for now for safety reasons (I got a beautiful Albino Whitesided Bull snake instead). My reasons for wanting a venomoid are practical in pursuit of a spiritual objective. Simply put: Naja is a sacred serpent and I have a very strong compulsion to build a relationship with one. I also am in no hurry to die while attempting to build that relationship so my feeling is that a properly (vet performed, sanitary, anethenetized) done operation on one of the species of Naja may allow me to have a much closer and more profound relationship with that particular animal without risking my life to do so. That relationship may also potentially be of great benefit to the serpent in that by being "safer" it would have alot more freedom than the sealed enclosure and trap box it would otherwise spend 24/7 in. In a perfect world the notion of Venomoids would be moot and the only venomous specimens in captivity would be in perfectly humane environments and cared for in such a way by professionals where the operation would be pointless. However, in a world where there are "Black Mamba Blow Out Sale's" on line and Western Diamondbacks for ONLY $14.95 apiece I must say that breeding has reached a point of critical mass and the five choices available that I can see are 1) Stop Breeding snakes for fun and profit. 2) Euthanize unwanted snakes, 3) Drastically lower the standards for keeping such creatures and thus probably put many of them in unhealthy environments with people who could end up getting themselves or others seriously injured or killed by their impulse purchase. (This also increases public outcry against all venomous snakes) 4) Create more legislation and licencing requirements to make the breeders only sell to licensed people or keep the offspring themselves. 5) PROPERLY steralize and make venomoid animals that are not for research purposes so they have a real shot a decent home and life.
AS for me, I don't much like government interference and I also don't want to see snakes killed or go to unsafe homes. That leaves only two options as far as I can see: Stop "for profit" breeding and focus soley on research breeding for scientific purposes (medicine primarily), or as a general practice make sterile venomoids out of ALL venomous animals sold to the general public. I realize the procedure is not perfect but if researched and done by professionals the success rate may reach acceptable levels for public ownership. This would allow snakes who my otherwise be destined for a life as either a behind glass showpiece, a threat to inexperienced keepers, or dead to perhaps have some freedom and the opportunity to teach people about the wonderfully diverse and special creatures that they are.

Thanks,
Ron
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Ron

"What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do..." Peter Weiss

Those 15 and 20 dollar WDB's aren't being bred, they're being collected. CB ones are usually worth at LEAST 30.
But how is a seller supposed to judge if a buyer is 'worthy' or not? Even if WDB's cost $400, that wouldn't make their buyers any better or smarter. That's a very personal decision and all we can do is hope the buyer is smart enough to make a good one.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

But how is a seller supposed to judge if a buyer is 'worthy' or not? Even if WDB's cost $400, that wouldn't make their buyers any better or smarter. That's a very personal decision and all we can do is hope the buyer is smart enough to make a good one.

Perhaps an informal "guild" of hot-keepers where it takes a word of mouth recommendation to get the breeders to sell a fully functional hot to someone? I don't like Unions or Legislation much but self-regulation on the part of a group of people working with and selling creatures as potentially dangerous as hot snakes seems like a good idea to me. It seems a reasonable way to avoid drastic legislation that may entirely stop the hobby (and possibly very important research) and leave the only specimens available as WC black market ones sold by people who love profit more than wildlife.

Amor et Lux,
Ron
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Ron

"What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do..." Peter Weiss

That leaves only two options as far as I can see: Stop "for profit" breeding and
focus soley on research breeding for scientific purposes (medicine primarily), or as a general
practice make sterile venomoids out of ALL venomous animals sold to the general public. I realize
the procedure is not perfect but if researched and done by professionals the success rate may reach
acceptable levels for public ownership.

>What about number 4? That seems like the only logical option you mentioned. Do you honestly think that making all snakes venomoids and sterile is acceptable? You seem to forget that PETA and the HSUS are looking for exactly those reasons to keep people from keeping reptiles, regardless of how you look at it, they are VERY influential.
As far as the getting rid of the captive breeding hobbyists, they are the only ones that have any morals in this hobby. They are the only ones not depleting wild populations to the point of species being threatened. They are the only ones that don't pay someone from another country a few dollars to catch a snake ONLY to bring it to a show and sell it in completely emaciated condition for 50x's what the paid for it.
It seems there are alot flaws in your reasoning. Let me ask you this, it's obvious you endorse venomoids, but how do you plan on getting snakes to venomoid if all snakes we keep are sterile and there are no breeders? Do you plan on taking snakes from the wild population to venomoid? That happens all too much as it is, without private breeders we will destroy certain wild populations.
Here's my two cents, increase legislation to weed out the riff-raff, increase permit costs and use the money to establish an AV bank for each state. If you can't afford the cost of the increase, you sure as hell can't afford to house and properly take care of a venomous snake or any other animal for that matter.

"but how do you plan on getting snakes to venomoid if all snakes we keep are sterile and there are no breeders?"

I did'nt mean all snakes as in every snake, but at least the ones going out for general public "display" and "Pets". I don't have any problem with qualified private breeders at all.

"without private breeders we will destroy certain wild populations."

I agree entirely and would very much like to limit the impact on the wild populations, but I also seriously worry about having a fully functioning captive bred cobra in every amatuer herpers garage.

"increase legislation to weed out the riff-raff, increase permit costs and use the money to establish an AV bank for each state. If you can't afford the cost of the increase, you sure as hell can't afford to house and properly take care of a venomous snake or any other animal for that matter."

I agree in part, but in practice I am a Libertarian who would greatly prefer to see self regulation of a private industry. It may very well be that the only way to effectively control the "riff-raff" in venomous circles is government intervention, but I worry that the intervention will go to far (as with many other government ideas) and have me paying for un-necessary licences and permits to keep my bull snake.

Amor et Lux,
Ron
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Ron

"What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do..." Peter Weiss

From the cobra's point of view, it's better for there to be a captive bred cobra in that garage than a WC one. And the vast majority of people really aren't dumb enough to get a cobra if they're not ready, most bites from captive snakes happen to 'qualified private breeders'.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Venomoids are a sin against the snakes anyway you look at it. Keeping venomoids in an enclosure that is less secure than you would use for a venomous snake will only lead to possible escapes and future legislation. Handling venomoids like you would handle a non-venomous snake sends a bad message to anyone who would witness such an act. Venom glands are an essential part of what makes a cobra or a rattlesnake what they are. Venom is a major part of what makes these animals spiritual. After venomoid surgery all you have is a mutilated, abused animal. This is not like declawing a cat. If you aren't up to the responsibility of keeping venomous snakes there are plenty of beautiful and harmless species out there to keep.

I am really curious to know why you would want to learn this procedure? I have several other questions, but that is the question I would really like to know.
Thanks
Kevin

I'm interested in learning this mainly for "an incase I would want to devenomize a snake for me" sort of thing. I'm only 16, so I'm deffinitely not considering this now. I would only perform this operation on my snake (if I get one) when I'm in college and maybe afterwards, because I'm gonna major in genetics and other fields of biology so I might have a professor that would that can help me with this sort of thing. Basically this interests me because I love venomous snakes and its just that it seems like a much better idea in my opinion to keep one that can't kill you.

as far as to fix one snake that you "might" want to get in the future, I would highly recommend just buying a hot and finding someone that will perform the surgery for you. It is not a thing that you learn to do on one snake, one time. It takes ALOT of hardwork and effort to be able to do something like this. It is something that you can't just pick up a scalpel and get some sutures and do. The few people that do perform the operation have been doing it for several years and are still learning. There are the occasional idiots that do hack jobs and try to make a living on the net, but they usually don't last too long. I can think of one very good example, but I am not going to name names. I am not flaming you or your ambition. I would say that you should definately go to school, learn about the genetics and biology of the animals, by then you can make a very educated opinion if this is still something you want to do or maybe you will feel differently about it. You can read on this very forum and see the varied opinions on the subject. As far as to simply keep a "venomous" snake that "won't" kill you, that is kind of a conflicting statement. If you are really interested in keeping a hot, I would definately say you need to keep a hot one and learn about the handling and husbandry with an unaltered snake and then think about getting a venomoid. They should be treated as hots with the same respect and precautions, whether they are altered or not. That last sentence is the really important part that alot of people miss.
Hope this helps,
kevin