Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Even in the late 70s......
None of this is a new concept.....
Gartska kept mexicana in groups and fed them each 10 mice a week......

Some continue this way of keeping snakes, but other have chosen the "cookie cutter" way to keep snakes.....both work so quit y'alls bickering......LOL

Check out this link

http://www.sierraherps.com/bibliography

And go to the Garstka, W. R., B. Camazine, and E. Jacobson. 1981. (It's in alphabetical order btw....)

Read the first two paragraphs and you can see that none of this that Frank and Rainer speak of is a "NEW" way of keeping snakes........Just no one had the internet back then to share like we do now........lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

You may have completely missed the whole point of the many that think bonding and heavy feeding is ridiculous. People, like you have shown with this article, have not thought about the proper health and well being of the animals, since the 70s. This is not new, and it is well known among myself, and many others. You are preaching to the choir, my friend. Maybe this was new to you, but not myself.

No one has ever argued that people have NOT ever kept kings in groups, just like no one ever argues that people have been killing brain cells with smoking weed since the 60s. People do it and it happens, and neither one may be the most intelligent thing to do.

People HAVE been keeping some kings like that together at times. We all know this. One of my friends keeps adult pyros together, and guess what John? He had a minor emergency this past week dealing with feeding time, as he almost possibly lost one of them to an " accident ".

Just like some live out food addictions thru their poor, obese animals as well, saying they need to eat buffet style, all of the time. Easy to make decisions for animals when they can't physically speak. Do loving parents let their kids eat all the candy they want? Of course not, as we now have the most obesity among people in our nation, and we are ABLE to live in a space bigger than our snakes can in their plastic boxes.

The authors kept Mexicana, Lampropeltis Mexicana, together, not getula. Even though they are kings, they simply are not as notorious for being cannibals like those in the getula complex. With that said, it still can happen.

And feeding 10 mice a week? HAHA!! Wow!! Talk about ridiculous, since mexican kings like Mexicana, and alterna, can easily possibly become obese with diets on mice to begin with!! How natural is it to give a Mexicana 10 adult mice a week??? They feed primarily on lizards in the wild, NOT mice. See how back then, they were not acting out with proper data?

Please, do not take this the wrong way John but please spend some time reading up on obesity and stress in animals, especially reptiles. Speak with top breeders who actually have good reputations in our hobby, and have been doing this a while. Spend some time looking into the subject of reptile medicine and health ailments. Knowledge is power.

People haven't been making the wisest decisions for themselves, and others, including animals, since man has been on this earth. Thank you for illustrating that even more!!

Take care!!

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Genesis 1:1

Billy....
My ONLY point here was stating that this was nothing new like many think........I never mentioned you......

And after 2 decades of keeping snakes I know all about obesity....No need to "read up on it."

Obesity occurs mainly when snakes aren't brumated and bred.......
During those cycles calories are expended as well as reserved fat......
If the snakes are never bred these calories and/or fat is never used up.....causing an obese snake.........

Why would you say that Gartska was wrong feeding 10 mice a week to each snake and had no problem with obesity?

I feed mine nearly that and have no problem with obesity.......WHY?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

What is the point in feeding 10 mice a week? Was that the healthiest thing to do to an animal that has very limited mobility and space in captivity? Have you thought, if that is even correct with what you are saying in regards to snakes becoming obese with not breeding or brumating, which I don't agree with, if the snake has that much reserved fat in it, and if that particular fat is not even used up causing obesity, that perhaps the snake WAS too fat to begin with?

I have not brumated since 97. No fat snakes here. Many other collections I am familiar with that didn't have successful enough brumations or didn't breed or brumate, no fat snakes. So, in actuality, that whole thing may be a moot point and another theory at best.

The fattest snakes I have seen were from feeding too much. The fattest snakes seen by reptile vets, biologists who specialize in reptile medicine, and the like, that I know, were from feeding too much. Heck, even to the point where it became an annoyance to have people bring in fat snakes for them to see all of the time.

All of our snakes in captivity can become obese, mine included. The key is balance and a choice made with actual data and knowledge about health and husbandry with our snakes. Like I said, spend some time talking with breeders in our hobby that have good reputations and are not using snakes for particular agendas. You may be surprised.
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Genesis 1:1

"Like I said, spend some time talking with breeders in our hobby that have good reputations and are not using snakes for particular agendas. You may be surprised."

You act as if I haven't in my time in the hobby......well Billy, I have.....I don't just live here on KS......I go to many shows, know many folks and talk husbandry alot.....

BTW....I don't feed my adults that much...they don't want that much......The growing snakes want that much and sometimes more......Again....my observation, not yours......hmmmmm

I keep my snakes a little different than most folks though.....One day I'll be able to unveil a little invention I have been working on, but until then bear with me.....hehe

Now I just need to conquer getting these snakes of elevation and cool weather to breed in South Texas better.......LOL

And again...where is this thread headed.....ALL I WANTED TO SHOW WAS THAT THIS WAS NOTHING NEW...........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I hear ya John, and no worries mate!!!

I feed my growing snakes more than my adults as well.

You saying that this was nothing new still comes across assuming others didn't know or think or were igorant of people who have been doing so since the 70s, that is all.

I just happened to be very thorough in my response, and I also speak for many people who have no tolerance for what goes on here on this forum.

Take care buddy!!
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Genesis 1:1

>>I hear ya John, and no worries mate!!!
>>I feed my growing snakes more than my adults as well.
>>You saying that this was nothing new still comes across assuming others didn't know or think or were igorant of people who have been doing so since the 70s, that is all.
>>I just happened to be very thorough in my response, and I also speak for many people who have no tolerance for what goes on here on this forum.
>>Take care buddy!!

No worries either man....I know your snakes are good and healthy in your hands.......That is a given in my opinion.........I know mine are too.....LOL

I believe it was Rainer stating once that this was a new way of keeping snakes........But I could be wrong.......I find it interesting when reading all the old papers and documents that nothing we do is new really.....The groundwork has been laid out for us........I still like to THINK a little though instead of just listening and reacting....Like so many folks do in this hobby......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That was perfectly said Billy. I have never fed "all a snake can eat" and have had no problems with breeding or weight.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That was perfectly said Billy. I have never fed "all a snake can eat" and have had no problems with breeding or weight

Yes I undertsnad "YOU" guys breed the kingsnakes. But how about letting the kingsnakes breed themselves?

How many of you get 3 clutches per year? How many keep your snakes in communal groups to allow breeding? None of you, right?

1) A snake cannot be overfed if it is still growing.

2) An adult snake cannot be overfed if it is allowed to breed as many times as they want to.

3) take away the choices and you won't have as much fun learning.

So it comes down to...can you maintain a healthy kingsnakes by preventing and taking away choices... Yes!

But would it be more fun to learn about your particular species of king that you like to keep?...I would hope so. Otherwise you make yourself out to be more of a collector. Or to make the snakes out to be something they are not, by tending to think of snakes like other "pets" ..(like dogs), but that is not what the snakes are.

Sometimes i wonder why you guys keep snakes. That may be a better question and one that I need to bring up on a seperate thread.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>How many of you get 3 clutches per year? How many keep your snakes in communal groups to allow breeding? None of you, right?
>>

I do!!! I'm not one of those Ding Dongs!
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Joe, I know you do.

But I think the solution for these debates is we need a seperate forum. One for Kingsnakes (like we have here now) and one for "Pet Kingsnakes".

That way this group of persons won't get their agnedas mixed up.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>That way this group of persons won't get their agnedas mixed up.

thought for sure you were going to say >>> panties in a wad!
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

You are talking about your PET snakes Rainer. You have pet snakes!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Wow, this is the second time you're calling for a new forum here (first was for bonding, right?). Wow.

>>Joe, I know you do.
>>
>>But I think the solution for these debates is we need a seperate forum. One for Kingsnakes (like we have here now) and one for "Pet Kingsnakes".
>>
>>That way this group of persons won't get their agnedas mixed up.
>>-----

Excuse me Rainer,

But aren't you the one that always says there are different choices? You and my dear frank?

People make choices on how they keep, as a profit and as a pet. And if their animals are thriving and surviving they are obviously doing something right. I agree with and keep my animals in a vast variety of cages from large extensive caging with wide options to the shoe boxes. And you know what? I bet others do.

But one thing that is fact positive is that no one single way is correct. Demanding that people leave or we set up a different forum for those that keep separate is ridiculous to the max. And this mentality is down right annoying to me.

I said before and I will say it again. We are all allowed to disagree, but this is crossing the line to getting personal. I will NOT allow it to get personal. There will NOT be bullying on this forum.

Is that understood by all?
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Thats all fine. Except you are not giving them anymore choice than anyone else. You keep them in a plastic box and force them to do one behavior. I am a collector. I love kingsnakes. I dont care about producing as many as I can. Thats what you are trying to do. Thats all you care about. What exactly do you learn from your snakes that you haven't learned already in all these years you have been doing this. What do you do different every year to keep learning. You keep pushing and repeating the same stuff over and over.

"Sometimes i wonder why you guys keep snakes. That may be a better question and one that I need to bring up on a seperate thread."

To watch them and enjoy the way they were made. Not to produce as many babies as they can. All my brooksi are WC and they are awesome. I love watching them. I feed them all different kinds of things they would find in the wild. You seem to have lost sight of what this is suppose to be about. I am designing a naturalistic cage for them with 6' visions. So I wonder, why do you keep snakes? How do you keep your brooksi? I would imagine the way you go on about this that they are in some awesome room size cages with saw grass and oolitic limestone. Now thats the makings of a cool cage. Im going to start looking into that.
Also, I dont understand your dog analogy. Dogs bond and eat everyday. Where are you going with that.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

" Thats all fine. Except you are not giving them anymore choice than anyone else. You keep them in a plastic box and force them to do one behavior. "

Exactly! Well said Gerard!

Even these who perpetuate the bonding myths are keeping the snakes the way THEY want to, and feeding them as much as THEY want to, while giving this lame excuse.."ooooo...I am listening to the snakes! "

HA!

It is basically laziness not wanting to house each snake individually, while trying to sound scientific. People see thru this. Just my opinion.
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Genesis 1:1

I don't think so Billy,

I think we're just being honest when we say that we can't match nature in a cage.

It's admitting that there is always room for improvement.

That's not the same thing as throwing them in a plastic box.

I keep my Bullsnakes in a 7.5' long cage. The gradient in that cage right now is 67 to 92. Hardly a plastic box. But you have understand that it's going to be 103 degrees outside in Texas today, so 67 on the low is pretty dang good.

The new getula cage isn't finished yet, but it is only 4' wide.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

What are you matching? What do you do different? You feed them all they can eat to give them the energy to produce alot of eggs. You keep them together so you dont miss ovulation. Whats matching Nature?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I never said I was matching anything. All we're talking about here right now is choices, the choices available in a plastic box vs the choices I'm offering in my cages.

Let's pose the same question to you. How large are your cages? Are you offering a thermal gradient? How about a humidity chamber? A true cold spot? Under 70 degrees F? How much are you feeding? Are you trying to pump out as many eggs as you can? If you read my reply in another thread, you saw that I am NOT trying to crank out as many eggs as I can, so NO I do not power feed. Yet, all my females bred.

And let me make this clear, I disagree with YOU & Bill when you say " Thats all fine. Except you are not giving them anymore choice than anyone else. You keep them in a plastic box and force them to do one behavior. "

It is basically laziness not wanting to house each snake individually, while trying to sound scientific. People see thru this. Just my opinion.

Laziness should not even enter the conversation, I can promise you that if you have x additional animals in a cage is not less work, period.

Lastly, bonding is not a myth. These kingsnakes live in family groups in the wild. I've seen this first hand in the wild with alterna and getula for over 40 years in the field. You can making fun of it if you wish, but it's not a myth

I think you guys are jealous of FR and Ranier
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

" I think we're just being honest when we say that we can't match nature in a cage. "

Of course we can't match nature in a cage. We never will, no matter how hard we try, so of course, we do what we do to provide what we can. We should NEVER stop trying.

" It's admitting that there is always room for improvement. "

So giving snakes LESS room is an improvement!? LOL! Come on Joe!! You gotta be kidding!!

So, putting multiple snakes in a cage, while they are not social animals to begin with, causing them stress, crowding them in a cage, where due to multiple snakes, multiple piles of fecal matter show up, more snakes crawl thru that, then crawl in the water dish, thus creating more filthy conditions, THAT is improvement?

If one snake is sick, being crowded in a box or cage, and the chance of others contracting whatever it is, that is improvement?

What about figuring out who puked, if one is sick, that is improvement?

What about figuring out whose poop looks less than stellar, when trying to figure out who is sick, that is improvement?

Be honest. Giving less attention to particular individual snakes in your collection..while saying.."oooo..they are found under the same board in nature..they must be bonding.." is just laziness. You should care enough about each individual snake to be able to administer INDIVIDUAL care to each one.

Case closed.
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Genesis 1:1

cheese and rice your reading comprehension sucks Billy

>>" It's admitting that there is always room for improvement. "
>>
>>So giving snakes LESS room is an improvement!? LOL! Come on Joe!! You gotta be kidding!!

Here's where you got stupid.... how did you get that out of what I said??? lmao.... saying room for improvement is not the same as saying it's an improvement lmao

>>So, putting multiple snakes in a cage, while they are not social animals to begin with, causing them stress, crowding them in a cage, where due to multiple snakes, multiple piles of fecal matter show up, more snakes crawl thru that, then crawl in the water dish, thus creating more filthy conditions, THAT is improvement?

who said they are not social animals? they live in groups, you find multiples of adults in the same spots, under the same boards, and in the same holes. You are wrong, again, they ARE social animals./

>>If one snake is sick, being crowded in a box or cage, and the chance of others contracting whatever it is, that is improvement?

First of all, I'm not Jorge, my snakes are not sick, puking, crypto carrying snakes. However, since I care for my snakes, It would be pretty easy to tell if one had a problem. I think you guys that lock your snakes in plastic boxes have problems for those very reasons. Try offering more choices.

>>What about figuring out who puked, if one is sick, that is improvement?

Again, see above, I'm sorry you have so many sick snakes, but I don't.

>>What about figuring out whose poop looks less than stellar, when trying to figure out who is sick, that is improvement?

>>Be honest. Giving less attention to particular individual snakes in your collection..while saying.."oooo..they are found under the same board in nature..they must be bonding.." is just laziness. You should care enough about each individual snake to be able to administer INDIVIDUAL care to each one.

you're just being stupid, again.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

>>Billy....
>>My ONLY point here was stating that this was nothing new like many think........I never mentioned you......
>>
>>And after 2 decades of keeping snakes I know all about obesity....No need to "read up on it."
>>
>>Obesity occurs mainly when snakes aren't brumated and bred.......
>>During those cycles calories are expended as well as reserved fat......
>>If the snakes are never bred these calories and/or fat is never used up.....causing an obese snake.........
>
>>
>>I feed mine nearly that and have no problem with obesity.......WHY?
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

Man...you need to reread my post.....You read into this WAY too much....LOL

Reread it and listen to what I am saying.......No way is wrong in my book.......I was just stating that this is NOTHING new.....

BTW...that mexicana in those black and white photos hardly looked obese.................Just sayin.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Ten mice a week are okay if the mice are small, like fuzzies. That is what I sort of assumed the article meant when it was referring to mexicana, a small snake species. It said ten juvenile mice...little baby mice? My pyros balk at eating big items but love multiple little items.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.