Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Even back in the late 70s.....

None of this that Frank and Rainer speak of is a NEW way to keep snakes....
Gartska and many others kept snakes in groups and fed each animal 10 mice a week........

Check out this link:
http://www.sierraherps.com/bibliography

Goto the paper:
Garstka, W. R., B. Camazine, and E. Jacobson. 1981.

It's in alphabetical order btw......

Read the first paragraph and quit the bickering....LOL

Some folks still keep snakes this way.....Others chose the NEW "cookie cutter" way.....both seem to work so quit your bickering.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I got an error everytime I tried to post this.....
Can you delete some of them and leave one????????????
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

it's not new! I didn't read the article just don't have time right now, but I did want to say that I have been keeping kings together since a teenager. It's not new, we learned from mistakes. I still keep kings together now. I never said it couldn't be done, I just said there is a certain risk with certain species mainly Getula, and that risk needs to be understood and acknowledged. I have a trio of Brooks together since spring, but I understand that there is a chance if I don't keep them well fed that I may have one eaten by it's cage mate! This has been my complaint all along, that Rainer and FR post this stuff many times not thinking that a newbie might read it and try it, only to lose one of his prized snakes! I know the risk and I am willing to take the risk with certain snakes, and not with others. The heavy feeding can be overdone also, as you have already stated.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

An excerpt from this PDF.
This is how I house my pyro trios and pairs.
Gotta do it right, though.
Feed a lot.
Plenty of room.
Introduce at onset of brumation.
Everybody same size.

I like this method as then I don't have to guess when she is ovulating.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I think I mentioned this about ten million times, its not new, its old, but somehow people lost their their way.

Its not that keepers have to do this or that. Its an option and parts can be utilized.

My particular concern is nesting, Nesting is a KEY
important behavior, and its just sad to me that many FORCE their gravid females to suffer, because, and let me be frank(fr) because your too boneheaded to actually think. I am not talking about anyone in particular, just a huge number of keepers only play follow the leader and the leader is other keepers, not the animals.

Many common sicknesses seen on this forum are TOTALLY preventable. But most want to fight and not learn.

And yes, Bill Garska was a good friend and field partner of mine, hahahahahahahahahaha which does make your post funny.

Only I was breeding snakes about the time Bill G was born, naw, but close.

The quality of how they process food, is a direct indicator of what conditions they are exposed too.

Consider, no animal can digest food faster then its designed to. i don't care what you do to them.

So if an individual snake can process and place energy on a daily basis, that is within its natural ability.

No offense here, but all the kings I have worked with, will feed to their full, daily, without problem, and all they require to do that is, the useable temps to gain the type of heat they need.

In my experience, they would consume food daily, for a period of time, say 4 or 5 days, then take a couple days off before hunting again.

Also, actively looking for food is the key. If they look for food, why don't you feed them? To me that is a great question. Ask about it!

With snakes that is easily provided in all but the smallest cages.

So again, how much they can process is a direct indicator of captive support.

I get the feeling folks do not want to think of that because it will reflect poorly on them. The truth is, it only reflects poorly, when you take what you feel is important over what the animals know is important. That is, when keepers make rules and such that are directly related to the keepers and their methods, then from or about, the actual potential of the captives(snakes).

No offense here, is that amount of food necessary? Do they eat that much in the wild? Have you ever seen brooksi in their natural enviorment and seen them hibernating together? Even if it gets cold enough here to slow them down that much. Also, have you ever seen brooksi in the wild that eat as much as they can fit in their mouth everyday for a couple days and then take a few days off? These are serious questions for you not sarcasm.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

In the wild they eat HUGE meals! 1/2 or even 2/3 their own body weight and have no problems.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

I agree with that. The question was do they eat that everyday?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>I agree with that. The question was do they eat that everyday?

Yes, some do. Metabolic rates vary considerably depending on a myriad of factors, species, places, seasons, etc. It just depends but there are real life examples.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

"Yes, some do. Metabolic rates vary considerably depending on a myriad of factors, species, places, seasons, etc. It just depends but there are real life examples."

So you put your animals in the optimum conditions. Thats not natural at all. Real life examples would include all the factors that compose their enviorment. Not just feeding them as much as they can eat and keeping them at a temprature that helps them handle that amount of food. Also, do you feed your kings snakes?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Where'd you get that from? You asked a question about wild snakes and then you applied an assumption about my captives. LOL uhhh no.
Don't do that.

>>So you put your animals in the optimum conditions. Thats not natural at all. Real life examples would include all the factors that compose their enviorment. Not just feeding them as much as they can eat and keeping them at a temprature that helps them handle that amount of food. Also, do you feed your kings snakes?
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Yes, I asked about wild snake. You came on here talking about bonding and how we are Ding Dongs for not understanding why it works. I was asking about how the snakes act in the wild. You said a bunch of other examples of factors that happen in the wild that can affect them and the amount of food they get. So how you keep them is not natural like Rainer and you say. You just put them in the optimal condition to make the most eggs. Thats fine if thats how you talk about it. You guys dont keep anything natural. Queen Bees!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>>>You came on here talking about bonding and how we are Ding Dongs for not understanding why it works.

OK so now you are the ding dong??? I was talking about no one in particular, but you interpret my post to mean YOU.... hmmm ok, well the problem here is not me.

>>>I was asking about how the snakes act in the wild. You said a bunch of other examples of factors that happen in the wild that can affect them and the amount of food they get.

Yes, this part is good and fine

>>>>>So how you keep them is not natural like Rainer and you say. You just put them in the optimal condition to make the most eggs.

Whoa Nelly!!! I said don't make assumptions - the part that is true here is that I keep my snakes in GROUPS.

>>>>>>Thats fine if thats how you talk about it. You guys dont keep anything natural.

That's yet another assumption on your part, you're full of them aren't you.

>>>>Queen Bees!

lol, ass.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

No, I didn't think you were talking to me. However you were saying it to everyone that disagrees with that method. You are right I did assume the rest. Thats not fair. I dont know you or how you have your animals setup. How do you house them? The Queen Bee thing is correct though. Thats what you do with that setup. Mass produce. Which there is nothing wrong with but you cant say thats the best way and cutting edge. Its just your way. My snakes are happy why is my way wrong?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I keep them in groups, but I don't mass produce, and I don't offer optimum conditions (IMO) or anything close to it. I try not to produce too many snakes because I can only care for a limited number.

In the wild these snakes are have access to temp extremes in excess of 60 degrees F. For example, a Mexican Hognose rests in it's burrow a few feet underground at 55 degrees, crawls out the burrow, to the pavement a feet away, and basks on a road surface 110 degrees F.

My captive conditions are not that good. But I think we can get a lot closer, and I'll put it into practice when I build my building.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Please take no offense, but you start with a base assumption that these snakes are NOT adapted to their natural enviornment. Do you understand that?

You are under the false assumption that these snakes are better adapted to captivity and will produce more then the "NATURAL" conditions they are adapted too.

You see nature allows these animals a reproductive potential. That potential is used in nature, from one end, very low or no recruitment, to the high end, What you think captives are doing.

The reality is, a wild animal cannot produce more then its natural capabilities. Not with just the application of food and temps, what is normally used in captivity.

ALso, all attempts to induce/increase snake reproduction with the addition of steriods, as used with fish and frogs, has failed.

So all we can do in captivity to reach the upper areas of what is natural to them is, apply temps and food. Which are both totally natural.

By design, to little or too much of what is natural will cause failure, it will not cause their genetic limits to be exceeded.

Animals that have a long line of selection still cannot exceed their genetic limits.

So your assumption that a day in captivity will allow kingsnakes to exceed their genetic limits, for the benefit of a commerical breeder are very very very naive.

If i were you, I would ask myself why I think like you do. What reason do you have? are you animals not living up to those numbers? If not, so what!

You see, in nature, they have a range of success, you know from dying to multiclutching. From growing extremely fast to failure.

Even in the area of reproductive success, it can range from one egg or neonate, to many many from a single female in a single season.

Or not having the prey base to even support one neonate. Those are all normal.

what is funny is, some people choose the botton end of what is normal AND CALL THAT NORMAL. Others choose the top end and call that normal.

The actual point is, from death to extreme recruitment success is NORMAL.

As a intelligent keeper, you have the ability to choose which suits you best.

You can even change your mind if you want.

Unfortunately, the snakes, they have no choice, they can only do what their genetics allow.

So how about thinking of this in a realistic way, genetics. Then ask, what developed those genetics. For gods sake, no matter how much you feed a person, they do not triple clutch, thank god

There is no offense. I have no problem learning something at all. I will try to ask what confuses me about what you just said.

"you start with a base assumption that these snakes are NOT adapted to their natural enviornment. Do you understand that?
You are under the false assumption that these snakes are better adapted to captivity and will produce more then the "NATURAL" conditions they are adapted too. "

No I dont. I never said they are not adapted to their natural enviorment. You said there is times when for instance weather can affect the amount of food that is available. Would that affect their reproduction at all?

"You see nature allows these animals a reproductive potential. That potential is used in nature, from one end, very low or no recruitment, to the high end, What you think captives are doing."

So the potential is affected by enviorment or based on the individual animal?

"So all we can do in captivity to reach the upper areas of what is natural to them is, apply temps and food. Which are both totally natural."

OK, so is that what you would call optimum? Allowing the amount of heat and food required to achive their "reproductive potential"?

"what is funny is, some people choose the botton end of what is normal AND CALL THAT NORMAL. Others choose the top end and call that normal"

So 2 normals = a noraml? Why is it that Some on here say their way is best when its just the other normal?

"As a intelligent keeper, you have the ability to choose which suits you best.
You can even change your mind if you want.
Unfortunately, the snakes, they have no choice, they can only do what their genetics allow."

I agree, and thats why Im talking to you about this. I am not afraid to learn something. However, I dont think coming on here and telling other people their way is not the best when you just said its just to sides of normal. I feed one meal every 4 days and my animals are healty and act like it. Is that not inside the ends of normal you metioned?

"So how about thinking of this in a realistic way, genetics. Then ask, what developed those genetics. For gods sake, no matter how much you feed a person, they do not triple clutch, thank god"

So if its Genetics the why does Rainer say that feeding that much is what allows him to triple clutch EVERY female? If its genetics thats fine. Thats not what is told.

Correct me if I dont get any of what you said.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I have no idea where you get the idea of what is ideal or optimum and then think it does not occur in nature.

My first epiphany was in the late fifties when I read a report that a midwest farmer ran over a bullsnake and the snake had 96 mice in it, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha how idea is that.

Or a four and a half foot yellow rat that had just consumed a rabbit. A RABBIT, not a baby rabbit.

The point is, wild snakes are far stronger more hardy disease resistant, etc then captives, and they do it with every meal containing parasites.

Somehow people lose the FACT that there are successful snakes and unsuccessful snakes in nature. They keep looking at the unsuccessful ones to make comparisons.

I have been doing field work forever. And the successful individuals are far more optimum then any captive I have ever seen, including any of my own.

Also what gets lost is timing. In captivity, you base your thoughts on a schedule, you say feed everyday, to you that means forever?????? Thats silly, wild animals do not work that way. They will eat daily during there foraging season, then go months without a single meal. Most of the snakes I have studied go about six months on and six months off. That is breeding adults.

If there is prey to be found, they increase their metabolism to fit, if not, they lower it. optimum is when prey is abundant. Their task is to consume that prey base as FAST as possible. And grow as fast as possible. Neonates are prey for all manner of other animals, Adults, not so much. In fact, successful adults do not seem to be impacted by predators at all.

i have watched some individual snakes and gilas, for over thirty years.

The point in captivity is, they can utilize lots of food, grow strong and quick, then reproduce like crazy. As that is what they do in nature, when available. In nature if prey is scarce, they lower their metabolism to not lose energy, any time of the year.

In captivity, when fed like the snakes WANT to be fed, they grow up quickly, within 18 months. Reproduce to their potential and do so for a very long time.

To their potential means, two or three large clutches.

What is funny is, keepers say, I do the very best, ideal, optimum, then feed them like lean years in nature.

You answered your first question yourself. You just said that some times in the wild there is good years and bad years. That is why when you feed them all they want and make them produce eggs none stop you are keeping them in optimum conditions.

I agree with you about wild snakes eating large prey. One day I found a four and a half foot Evrglades Ratsnake that had caught the biggest rat I have ever seen in the wild. I sat there and watched it for almost two hours as it killed and ate the rat. That snake was so stuffed there is no way it would have ate for atleast a week. I never said they cant eat big meals or that they cant eat alot. I just said that they dont have to.

I am glad you have had alot of success with your methods. I think that your monitors are amazing. I have had success with my methods too. So does that make anyone of the ways right or wrong?
Also, you never answerd and of my other questions.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!