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For GerardS, about reproductive

FR Aug 10, 2011 08:56 PM

About reproductive potential.

Let me start this post by saying if you look at any field guide about all reptiles, muchless kingsnakes. You will read a range of adult sizes, and a range of clutch sizes. There is reason for that. The reason is, they all have a range of adult sizes and clutch sizes based on local support and yearly support.

This is based on dietary support for any individual snake.

For instance overall size is based on prey availability in the first two years of life. Large adults have been supported by lots of food early in life. Small adults have not been supported well. This is with wild snakes and captive snakes.

Snakes grow very quickly when young, first 2 or 3 years, then very slowly after that. The old wifestail about reptiles never stop growing is just that, a wifestail. If it were true, there would be really giant snakes like Bluerosy allowing 10 foot Fla kings, with all the food he feeds. But he doesn't have that does he? Their growth occurs when they are young, just like everyother animal.

So you have two things, genetics and support that allow an individual to reach its full potential. Support is food, temps, security, etc. And this goes for both captivity and nature.

In your post below, you said you feed every four days and your animal is fine. Yes, your animal could be within normal. What has it done, How old, how large, how much as he/she reproduced? etc, that is how success and how normal is measured. Not feeding every four days, that is meaningless.

ALso, if you use Bluerosy as an example and hes a darn good one. He allows his animals to control their own destiny. That is, they can eat as much as they want, they are not controlled by him. So he supports bigger snakes and more reproduction.

The absolute truth is, if you give the snakes the choice, they always choose to do the most they can do, not the least.

Yes, in poor years nature suppresses their growth and reproduction. The snakes do not have a choice.

In captivity, your(controlling keepers) surpressing their progress, again the snakes cannot put food or higher temps in their cages. But if you do, they will utilize it.

Again reality, you measure success with wild animals by the QUALITY of recruitment. That is, how many offspring they produce. All biologist measure success that way.

If a population(numbers of individuals) produce well, then the population is considered healthy. If reproduction is poor or low, its not healthy.

In captivity, Bluerosys population is VERY FRIGGIN healthy. Yours not so much(as an example). Yours can be considered well within normal, but it cannot be compared to what Bluerosy is experiening. How could it, you do not feed much. See what I mean?

Also Growth and reproduction is based on more then food. ITs a reflection of supporting conditions. For instance, if your temps are low or not useable, then the snake will not feed much, therefore not grow much, and not reproduce much.

When Bluerosy states his captives commonly triple clutch, that means they are recieving very very good support in the areas of diet and supportive conditions. His captives are effectively converting energy into reproduction. Which is what these animals are designed to do.

Remember, reptiles use heat and humidity from their surroundings to fuel their metabolism. So the superior results that Bluerosy is showing means more then just lots of food. It also means good or great supportive conditions.

If he did not support them with the proper temps, they simply could not digest and utilize the food they consume.

What confuses me is, most here have no idea of how these animals live. They do not use the same temps all year long. Or year after year. The schedule thing is oddly not appropriate to snakes. Its a mammal type thing.

They, reptiles are experts at taking advantage of good condtions and experts at laying low and surviving poor condtions. There is no schedule.

The problem is reptiles have toooo many stupid wifestails and even experts fall for them. Like it taking long periods of time to digest large meals. hahahahahahahahahaha, use your head, what would a piece of meat be like a week after it died, hahahahahahahahaha it ROTS. LArger meals require more heat to break down and digest, but do so in the same amount of time as large meals. You should know what happens if they cannot digest it properly, they puke it up and do not wait a week to do so.

If you consider that, all a pair of snakes have to do to maintain an even population is replace themselves one time, That is make TWO babies that grow to adults. Why would they have to live so long?

Kings make lots of babies in a year, muchless in their lifetime. What happens to them?

Also, why do snakes and other reptiles live so long? Considering they only have to replace themselves once. Why do they live 25 to way over a 100 years. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm that is a good question.

The answer is simple, it may take ten years to have one good year of recruitment. Now we must learn the difference between reproduction and recruitment. Reproduction is the amount of neonates produced. Recruitment is the amount that survives to adulthood. Those numbers are not equal. They are never equal, and at times there is a massive difference. In many years, the entire reproductive effort FAILS to survive. In fact thats common. Other years, there may be a 80% survival rate. So now we measure success by survival rate. Not reproductive effort.

What I see is, your questions are based on you, which is great. But you were judging those that had their animals produce near their potential, as something wrong with them, like being commerical or something. Sir that is wrong.

Let me tell you this, a pair of snakes does not know what commerical is, they only know when supported well, they grew well and reproduce well and recruit well.

When conditions are limited, they do not. There is no commerical or hobbyist approach in their efforts.

So when you or others make statements about mass producing or whatever, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIOLOGY OF THE REPTILE and what its reproductive potential and ability is. Its based on human thoughts of some odd nature.

Replies (35)

Jlassiter Aug 10, 2011 09:05 PM

>>About reproductive potential.
>>
>> Let me start this post by saying if you look at any field guide about all reptiles, muchless kingsnakes. You will read a range of adult sizes, and a range of clutch sizes. There is reason for that. The reason is, they all have a range of adult sizes and clutch sizes based on local support and yearly support.
>>
>> This is based on dietary support for any individual snake.
>>
>> For instance overall size is based on prey availability in the first two years of life. Large adults have been supported by lots of food early in life. Small adults have not been supported well. This is with wild snakes and captive snakes.
>>
>> Snakes grow very quickly when young, first 2 or 3 years, then very slowly after that. The old wifestail about reptiles never stop growing is just that, a wifestail. If it were true, there would be really giant snakes like Bluerosy allowing 10 foot Fla kings, with all the food he feeds. But he doesn't have that does he? Their growth occurs when they are young, just like everyother animal.
>>
>> So you have two things, genetics and support that allow an individual to reach its full potential. Support is food, temps, security, etc. And this goes for both captivity and nature.
>>
>> In your post below, you said you feed every four days and your animal is fine. Yes, your animal could be within normal. What has it done, How old, how large, how much as he/she reproduced? etc, that is how success and how normal is measured. Not feeding every four days, that is meaningless.
>>
>> ALso, if you use Bluerosy as an example and hes a darn good one. He allows his animals to control their own destiny. That is, they can eat as much as they want, they are not controlled by him. So he supports bigger snakes and more reproduction.
>>
>> The absolute truth is, if you give the snakes the choice, they always choose to do the most they can do, not the least.
>>
>> Yes, in poor years nature suppresses their growth and reproduction. The snakes do not have a choice.
>>
>> In captivity, your(controlling keepers) surpressing their progress, again the snakes cannot put food or higher temps in their cages. But if you do, they will utilize it.
>>
>> Again reality, you measure success with wild animals by the QUALITY of recruitment. That is, how many offspring they produce. All biologist measure success that way.
>>
>> If a population(numbers of individuals) produce well, then the population is considered healthy. If reproduction is poor or low, its not healthy.
>>
>> In captivity, Bluerosys population is VERY FRIGGIN healthy. Yours not so much(as an example). Yours can be considered well within normal, but it cannot be compared to what Bluerosy is experiening. How could it, you do not feed much. See what I mean?
>>
>> Also Growth and reproduction is based on more then food. ITs a reflection of supporting conditions. For instance, if your temps are low or not useable, then the snake will not feed much, therefore not grow much, and not reproduce much.
>>
>> When Bluerosy states his captives commonly triple clutch, that means they are recieving very very good support in the areas of diet and supportive conditions. His captives are effectively converting energy into reproduction. Which is what these animals are designed to do.
>>
>> Remember, reptiles use heat and humidity from their surroundings to fuel their metabolism. So the superior results that Bluerosy is showing means more then just lots of food. It also means good or great supportive conditions.
>>
>> If he did not support them with the proper temps, they simply could not digest and utilize the food they consume.
>>
>> What confuses me is, most here have no idea of how these animals live. They do not use the same temps all year long. Or year after year. The schedule thing is oddly not appropriate to snakes. Its a mammal type thing.
>>
>> They, reptiles are experts at taking advantage of good condtions and experts at laying low and surviving poor condtions. There is no schedule.
>>
>> The problem is reptiles have toooo many stupid wifestails and even experts fall for them. Like it taking long periods of time to digest large meals. hahahahahahahahahaha, use your head, what would a piece of meat be like a week after it died, hahahahahahahahaha it ROTS. LArger meals require more heat to break down and digest, but do so in the same amount of time as large meals. You should know what happens if they cannot digest it properly, they puke it up and do not wait a week to do so.
>>
>> If you consider that, all a pair of snakes have to do to maintain an even population is replace themselves one time, That is make TWO babies that grow to adults. Why would they have to live so long?
>>
>> Kings make lots of babies in a year, muchless in their lifetime. What happens to them?
>>
>> Also, why do snakes and other reptiles live so long? Considering they only have to replace themselves once. Why do they live 25 to way over a 100 years. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm that is a good question.
>>
>> The answer is simple, it may take ten years to have one good year of recruitment. Now we must learn the difference between reproduction and recruitment. Reproduction is the amount of neonates produced. Recruitment is the amount that survives to adulthood. Those numbers are not equal. They are never equal, and at times there is a massive difference. In many years, the entire reproductive effort FAILS to survive. In fact thats common. Other years, there may be a 80% survival rate. So now we measure success by survival rate. Not reproductive effort.
>>
>> What I see is, your questions are based on you, which is great. But you were judging those that had their animals produce near their potential, as something wrong with them, like being commerical or something. Sir that is wrong.
>>
>> Let me tell you this, a pair of snakes does not know what commerical is, they only know when supported well, they grew well and reproduce well and recruit well.
>>
>> When conditions are limited, they do not. There is no commerical or hobbyist approach in their efforts.
>>
>> So when you or others make statements about mass producing or whatever, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIOLOGY OF THE REPTILE and what its reproductive potential and ability is. Its based on human thoughts of some odd nature.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

mbrawley Aug 11, 2011 02:07 PM

Yeah, very good...good enough to print and hold on to, which is exactly what I did.

varanid Aug 10, 2011 09:20 PM

10 foot Fla kings

You just described my dream snake. I'll take a 10' WS florida kingsnake please.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

pyromaniac Aug 11, 2011 09:09 AM

10 foot Fla kings

You just described my dream snake. I'll take a 10' WS florida kingsnake please.
One of my 08 female pyros is getting close to three and a half feet; for a pyro that is pretty big! I guess she has been supported fairly well! LOL!
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Tony D Aug 10, 2011 09:59 PM

"Again reality, you measure success with wild animals by the QUALITY of recruitment. That is, how many offspring they produce. All biologist measure success that way."

I thought recruitment occurs when juveniles survive long enough to be added to the adult population.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Jlassiter Aug 10, 2011 10:36 PM

>>"Again reality, you measure success with wild animals by the QUALITY of recruitment. That is, how many offspring they produce. All biologist measure success that way."
>>
>>I thought recruitment occurs when juveniles survive long enough to be added to the adult population.

I believe the point here is that odds of recruitment is increased with Quality = number of offspring......

This brings to mind the ultimate act of "recruitment".......Parthenogenesis........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

FR Aug 10, 2011 10:38 PM

Yup thats what I explained in the post, I did make a error before that. If you want perfect, then I will charge you for it. hahahahahahahahahahaha

I think you could add to this and not try to confuse it. You think???

Tony D Aug 11, 2011 08:13 AM

Just working towards clarity Frank. Not sniping at you.

Relative to your post there is a concept called resource allocation where under differing conditions an organism may choose to produce fewer more quality offspring over a larger quantity. In the end recruitment is the measure of success but nature does demonstrate different paths to the same end.

In captivity much the same can be seen. I once received a collection of coastal plains milk snakes. One female was VERY well supported and she laid a clutch of 16 eggs. The neonates were small and a complete pain to start. In subsequent years she was less well supported and threw clutches of about 8. Those neonates were more robust and much easier to start. A plus in this instance.

I think the prime indicator in captivity is body weight. If you support very well but don't provide condition for the support to be outputted as reproductive effort you end up with fat snakes. If you support for lower production but provide conditions where most of the input is being utilized for metabolism you end up with an animal that is too thin and will not breed. In the end its a balance. I don' think there is a right or wrong to maximizing production or limiting it as long as the animals in our charge maintain relative healthy weights.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

FR Aug 11, 2011 01:57 PM

Hi Tony, what you brought up is absolutely true.

When I first produced lines of cal kings, many females would lay fewer larger eggs. Then as they matured the first clutch would be fewer larger eggs, then the second clutch would be many smaller eggs. Same female same year.

This does bring up so much of what we do not know. Like what controls that.

But thats far above and beyond what we are discussing here. We are just dicussing the use of energy by captive individuals.

Also if these abilities are natural(within their genetic potenial) or not. The main discussion is those thinking its something about captivity. Not something natural.

With your understanding, you should realize its both. They do have a natural ability to multiclutch under supporting conditions. And in captivity, they have little to expend their energy on, other then growth and reproduction. So they should be far more prone to multiclutching in captivity then in nature, where so many other pressures inhibit them.

What we have seen in our studies is, they, snakes, have a range of reproductive abilities based on varying conditions. And the conditions do vary over long periods of time. Cheers

Tony D Aug 11, 2011 03:44 PM

Agreed.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Aug 10, 2011 10:42 PM

That was interesting. Ok, I do not have a problem with mass producing. I do it with my turtles. I get seven to eight clutches from each female. Thats because I am trying to produce as many as I can. Is that a measure of how healthy they are or a product of me keeping them in the conditions to produce that many eggs. I dont agree with the whole "controling their own destiny" thing you said about Rainers animals. I think you said that they are in plastic boxes and there for he is controling them. He decides how much he will put in for them just as I do. He just puts more. The whole point started with that. There is no right or wrong. If your animals produce eggs or not, grow fast or slow, they are still being controled by the keeper. If you want to let them make choices open the cage and walk away.

This has nothing to do with the fact that Rainer and I dont get along. It is just about the fact that his way or my way is not better than the other. It had to do with attitude not husbandry.

I respect you and what you know. I dont know everything and all this is my opinion only. If you are talking about mass production then I agree with you about Rainers husbandry. How ever I do not agree with it being the best way. Who the hell is anyone to say that. Thats my whole problem with what this started out with. YOu write alot of well known things with a couple questions in between. I understood what you were saying the first time you said it. You keep repeating the same thing I am saying and answering your own questions. You even have me writing like you(really long).

Simple question, is the way you or Rainer or I keep are animals better than the other?

That is the answer Im looking for. Not Kingsnake care sheets or Wives-tales. That is a one word answer.
Thank you,
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Bluerosy Aug 10, 2011 11:02 PM

Simple question, is the way you or Rainer or I keep are animals better than the other?

Better for the animals? Or better for you? Define better.

Long life?
Reprodution?

I would think that "not better" is to do the opposite of what is natural. The natural order in place...how and what the snakes were designed for.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

GerardS Aug 10, 2011 11:12 PM

Better for the animals. What you are saying is the upper level of normal to quote FR. Its what would happen in the wild if everything went perfect(optimum)). Like I said, there's nothing wrong with mass producing but is that whats required for a person that just wants to keep a pet snake?
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

FR Aug 10, 2011 11:16 PM

Why do you keep saying mass producing??? Thats a term you pick. not a term based on what they do.

So if Bluerosy did it, its mass producing and if a female did that in nature, its a really healthy female?? What is it?

GerardS Aug 10, 2011 11:24 PM

It is what they do when they are given optimum conditions. If a female does it in nature she was in a good year. Does a female in the wild that produced 3 clutches one year do the same every year? Or does she do it when all the right thing are given to her?
Thanks,
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

a153fish Aug 11, 2011 03:10 AM

Females in nature don't have piles of food brought to them and placed in front of them to gorge themselves on, without having to even chase or hunt for a single one. They are also not confined in a small space, so I don't see how a snake in nature can produce as much as Rainer claims he produces?
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

WillStill Aug 11, 2011 10:31 AM

Hi Jorge,

I think that many wild females take full advantage of piles of nestling rodents as often as they can. So in a good year, one in which keeps the mice, voles, rats etc pumping out babies, the snakes will take full advantage and gorge themselves and do very well reproductively for that year, likely producing 2 or 3 or more clutches per season. Now obviously in those lean years, the snakes will not have access to "easy" prey and may not be able to support multiple clutches.

Will

a153fish Aug 11, 2011 02:52 PM

Will, but they still have to chase them down, and hunt for them. Nests might consist of pinkies or fuzzies, then they have to go about looking for the next one. They are not sitting in a 30 inch tub eating ten full grown lab produced mice. I do agree that in years when food is plentiful, the snakes will respond by producing 2 or 3 clutches. That's why I always tell people if you want a double clutch you have to feed them very well, after they lay their eggs. I do feed my animals well, just not all they can consume in one sitting. Thanks, for your input!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

FR Aug 11, 2011 09:19 AM

why do you dwell on every year? in nature, there is no next year. Its not something nature worries about.

If there is a next year, then its a good thing, but natural snakes, hmmmm snakes in nature do not worry or plan for the next clutch muchless he next year. They produce as well as they can and face the next day as it comes.

Now you mention you multiclutch your turtles and you do it for commerical reasons. As you state, you mass produce them.

Please explain how do you do that? Do you do something totally unnatural? or do you just give them good nesting, good food, good temps, etc?

Do you use some manner of drugs?

Do you practice gene splicing or something to increase their natural ability?

Or is it something the are genetically and physically capable of doing already?

If so, why are they capable of doing that if they do not do that or never did that in nature?

Back to your question about multiclutching every year. In captivity, you and I have both learned they will multiclutch as long as you feed the crap out of them and keep doing so on a timely basis.

So what is that weird to you with snakes, surely they will not preform like your turtles and my varanids, but they surely do the same.

FR Aug 10, 2011 11:12 PM

I guess with you it boils down to who does it. Well thats not about the snakes.

Of course all keepers have control the snakes. But he puts in enough food, so the snakes can decide when to stop feeding. In others cases, they put in one fuzzie and a dime, then wait four days. That is control.

The question becomes, why do his snakes feed that much. They do that on their own. They are NOT FORCE FED OR FORCED TO FEED.

THat is under their control.

I will stop now as gerard, you seem to not to overlook biology in place of social arrangements.

Guess what, Bluerosy cannot force anybody to do anything and neither can I. You have a choice and you make it. Thats your problem and your joy. So why do you worry about bluerosy?

I do not know Bluerosy, but he cares enough to work hard at supporting his animals.

i don't understand how hes any different then you. You think one end is fine, he thinks the other is fine. Both of you are the same. I happen to agree with Bluerosy. In my opinion and thats all it is, we should support our animals the best we can, as we can and will fail from there.

Not start in the middle and go backwards from there. Good luck

GerardS Aug 10, 2011 11:19 PM

Thank you for your opinions. I dont know Rainer either and Im not saying anything he does is wrong. I said that saying his way, your way or my way is the best is wrong. Good luck to you. Good night.
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

DMong Aug 10, 2011 11:35 PM

"I happen to agree with Bluerosy"

Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone gets that part so far, and vice-versa too...........geeez!

~Doug
Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

FR Aug 10, 2011 11:57 PM

I am not sure you get it, I agree that we as keepers need to explore the entire range of their reproductive potential. Not just pick some arbitrary middle of the road level and say, thats what its suppose to be.

The absolute reality is, even if you feed like I did and bluerosy does, you will recieve many levels of reproduction, as each animal ages. The thought that they are suppose to be the same all the time or on schedule is what is odd to me.

I think it boils down to this, I like to ask the animals what they are by providing different levels of husbandry, not tell them what they are or what to do, but providing ONE level of husbandry.

The actual point is obscure, like bluerosy or I do not rag on what you or the other poster do. he seems to associate bluerosys results as better, therefore right or more right. Then feels bad. You have to ask why that is?

GerardS Aug 11, 2011 08:42 AM

'' he seems to associate bluerosys results as better, therefore right or more right. Then feels bad. You have to ask why that is?"

No I dont. Thats what you guys are saying. Im asking the same question you just asked. I asked you why its is that that way is right to you. I dont feel bad at all. You put to much into a yes or no question.
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

FR Aug 11, 2011 09:27 AM

I have already stated many times, what Bluerosy does is within the genetic potential of his animals. So its as right as any other positive result.

Again, we judge reproductive levels by the numbers produced and the health and continued health of the animals envolved.

So if his animals produce more healthier babies and do so for several years or a lot of years, then Bluerosys results are BETTER then those LESS then his. And it has nothing to do with bluerosy.

In nature, those that recruit the most successfully WIN, they are the genetics that continue the species or population. Not the ones that DO NOT.

What your thinking is not about animals, biology or snakes. It appears your stuck with your own misundertandings about snakes and your blaming Bluerosy for his success that you cannot achieve. Thats what it appears like to me. Why not take rainiers name out of it and continue or redo this discussion. If you did that, there would be no discussion.

In a friggin nutshell, one average clutch a year is normal, more is superior, less is inferior to normal. That is simple enough. Of course the females must remain healthy and by all indications, Rainiers snakes are super healthy, hahahahahahaha which is why they have super reproductive results.

GerardS Aug 11, 2011 10:22 AM

This all started with telling someone with a pet snake to feed as much as possible. It has nothing to do with the amount of babies that are produced. You are confused about what Im asking you. If someone has one snake, do you have to feed them as much as they can eat?

You aked me, how do I get so many clutches from my turtles? I do the same exact thing.High amounts of food, temps, and a clean enviorment(optimum conditions). This is not a mystery to me. I understand what you are saying. Please understand that. Now, if you just have one turtle as a pet. I you use myself as a example and not Rainer so you dont get mad. One turtle kept by someone as a pet doesn't require the same amount of food that I feed. The temps and water quality still needs to be there. Just like temps and water need to be there for a snake. The turtle will not grow as fast as one of mine will. Just like in nature. The turtles will live a long time and be perfectly healthy.

So, if someone is just keeping one snake or turtle as a pet do they need to feed that much? Its not a wrong or right. Its a yes or no question.
Thanks,
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

jr56 Aug 11, 2011 01:52 PM

Seems like common sense to me. No, if you just want to keep a pet snake, you do not have to feed it massive amounts of food. If you want that snake to produce 2 or 3 clutches of eggs a year, then yes, you do. The energy-protein to produce that many eggs has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the food you provide. As it has also been stated, proper temps, humidity, etc have to be provided too to alow the snake to process that much food efficiently.
Jeff
www.4lakessnakes.com

DMong Aug 11, 2011 09:51 AM

It all reminds me of that guy Timothy Treadwell that also thought he knew absolutely everything there was to know about Grizzly Bears. .........

Of course he later found out the hard way that much of this was simply pure speculation on his part.

Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

WillStill Aug 11, 2011 09:03 PM

Did you read that book about his and his girlfriend's final adventure? They said the audio kept recording long after the video luckily quit. Poor arrogant bastard.

Will

DMong Aug 11, 2011 09:24 PM

Will,...yeah, I read some things about it, but have seen several documentaries in the past about him and the bears. Yes, the video and audio of their final moments had to have been pretty darn grizzly to say the least...(no pun intended..LOL!)

yes, poor arrogant bastard indeed!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

WillStill Aug 11, 2011 10:52 AM

Hi Gerard,

I think you just answered your own question with your turtle example. I have done the same thing, I've supported my turtles enough to allow them to lay up to 8 clutches a year. I've also done the same with my kings, by supporting them to the point where my females would triple clutch. Now I am controlling my kings by not supporting them to that point, I simply do not want that many baby kings to care for every year. It is a conscious, controlling choice on my part. I choose to limit my support to effect their reproductive output. Was my support better in the past? Heck yes it was. It allowed them to achieve their potential. Should the snake police come and hassle me for neglect? Nope, because I all I'm doing is slightly limiting my support to allow one big clutch a year. I guess I'm simulating a series of average years for them, and I think that's ok too.
I am certainly controlling their behavior just as we all do on some level. I just think Rainer is controlling his animals less by giving them more choices.

Also, I'm not jumping to Rainer's defense here. He doesn't need that, certainly not from me, as him and I have gone several rounds in our history here. But I do agree with him on this issue because I honestly believe that his way is better for the snakes. If they don't want to eat so much, he has some leftovers. But if they do want the calories, they have the choice and that allows the snakes some measure of control to do what they are designed to do. Good conversation. Thanks.

Will

GerardS Aug 11, 2011 11:05 AM

No defense is needed. We are having a good conversation here(no fighting). I am not saying at all that Rainers way is bad or wrong. Im asking from a pet point of view, is it the best way. I agree that for high production, heavy feeding is required to produce the energy needed to get that result. The animals grow fast and make lots of babies. Should someone with one animal feed them that much? If the goal is not to produce babies just to care for the animal as a pet is the larger amounts of meals needed? Thats what I asked and I guess answered. What I was looking for was Franks answer to that one question.

Thanks,
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

DMong Aug 11, 2011 11:47 AM

Ya know,..I never once heard the person say they wanted several clutches of eggs out of that small splendida pair they had. I also know that this person being pretty new to the hobby probably didn't understand all the optimum conditions that are needed to feed that amount of food continuously. The person simply wanted healthy snakes, NOTHING more!. He never ONCE said that he was striving for a maximum number of clutches from these snakes,...not ONCE!. Without having a substantial temp gradient in the enclosure, I don't think it was a smart thing to advise these gigantic and continuous meals at ALL. But hey, what the hell do I know about snakes after 44 years of owning them..LOL!

I just can't understand why this thing always has to be a silly carnival ride that never, never, ever stops..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

mbrawley Aug 11, 2011 02:28 PM

On a side note, I love that picture man! Really cool turtles!

GerardS Aug 11, 2011 02:33 PM

Thank you. They are fun to work with.


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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

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