Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If you keep a kingsnake in a cage with room heat and feed it once per week how will the snakes do? Will they grow to a decent size and be able to breed?
What kind of gradients do you recommend? UTH under perhaps 1/4 of the cage or something else?
What feeding regimen do you put baby kings on? How about the adults? Do you 'hibernate' your adult kings?

Thanks,
Dan

First off, there are many approaches to keeping snakes, they depend on you.

Do you want to see what abilities kings have, or do you want a snake in a box.

Also, I cannot speak for others, but in reality, I do all the above. I feed some alot, others not so much, some I let go down/hibernate, others are active year a round.

Some I feed when they are hungry which means daily, others not.

Some are in sweater boxes and others nice cages with lots of options.

These kings use a temp range from the mid fifties to 100F hot spot. Which means the must be able to get totally to those temps and temps inbetween. or you can keep them in the low 80's and be happy(you)

Breeding or better yet the quality of breeding will indeed reflect how well you allow the animals to do what they want.

For instance if you give them the above choices and humidity thats normal to them and they hunt everyday, why would you not feed them? So if they hunt feed them. Then see what happens. If they have choices and you feed them when they are hungry, what could be wrong with that? True is, they will eat a whole lot and grow like weeds and reproduce to the best of their ability.

How well you support them is measured by growth, reproduction and longevity. Not one, or the other. All three.

Aside from those three areas, you can also enjoy their behavior. That is, how they behave with eachother. Which is the pairing and grouping we see. Or you can keep them solitary and time the animals. The first is natural, the second is about you.

When given temps choices, there is no need to do anyting but feed, clean and dig up eggs. Keeping them at constant temps means you have to do everything, you know, raise the temps, lower the temps, hibernate/brumate, etc.

WIth the first method, all you have to do is maintain the cage, the second you must do everything for the helpless animal.

They are not helpless, we just make them that way. Consider all the wild snakes are on their own and do very well that way.

So, what is your interest? once thats decided, then we can help you achieve your goals. Thanks

p.s. my best results have always been by letting the snakes do what they want. Give them choices.

Great post, Frank.
There's an interesting article in herp nation this month about black kings in Ky. In one instance a pair found together more than 10 days apart, albeit under same piece of tin. On second finding a second male present, but under different tin. And later, eggs found under the tin. Contradicted my suspicion pairs would only remain together for shorter duration.

Thanks, in my field experience, the pairs that are what I call bonded, often stay together, within the same area, year a around. Other pairs don't, most breeding pairs, stay or attend the female for at least six months. Remember, together, does not have to mean, constantly on top eachother every minute. Attending means the male follows the female from place to place.

With our rattlesnakes, they can be found coiled together, or three feet apart, or ten feet apart. what makes it interesting is, its the same male and female.

of even more interest, there are indeed other males that come and go and other females.

There are females that do not have mates and males as well.

Again with our rattlesnakes, hmmmm they are much easier to see, the single males do not chase females, but instead they do what I call POST. they find a spot and stay out in the open waiting for something, They will stay there until the breeding season is over. Over the years some have gotten lucky and found mates.

The point to be made is, its behavior, and does not follow strict rules. If pairing fails, they do something else. So you see many degrees of pairing and bonding and grouping.

Overall, the coloney works for pairing and grouping. But its not 100% all the time.

THe problem is we people want it to be a DONE OR DON'T type of thing, and its just not going to do that.

So yes, you can find longterm tightly bonded pairs, and single animals, and everything in between.

What I feel is most important is, the bonded pairs are RELIABLE, which means its very important to recruiting. They are successfully doing the same things over and over. And that means they are avoiding interference like predation and weather changes, etc. Sorry for going on.

AT the BOR meetings last month, there was a paper using cameras that showed mothers brooding, and following others neonates and all manner of social behavior. It was a revolution of sorts. The lady giving the talk was scared out of her mind. She thought she was going to get shot down. But she didn't. Things are changing with the understanding of snake behavior. Thanks

Let me start by making this disclaimer...I don't mean this to be insulting or argumentative... I say that because all too often contrary points of view are taken that way here, but...

You can not attempt to justify/validate/endorse/etc your views on the "bonding" of kingsnakes by citing as example the observations made in rattlesnakes.

The entire topic is interesting... arguments and observations, both pro and con, could be of equal interest... sadly, the presentation of those observations/arguments leaves much to be desired... it all but leaves this forum little more than a joke... sorry Cindy.

Gerry

Although the frequent and repetitive arguments and fights are certainly a distraction, I would have to disagree with "it all but leaves this forum little more than a joke...". I've learned, and CONTINUE, to learn different and new things all of the time.

Stay safe!

You can not attempt to justify/validate/endorse/etc your views on the "bonding" of kingsnakes by citing as example the observations made in rattlesnakes.

No. There is no "attempt". Kingsnakes bond in the wild. if you followed posts on bonding kingsnakes as far back as a year, you would know that.

The rattelsnake talk was brought up because it was recent and worth mentioning.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

Hi Gerry,

No offense taken.

Why can't I compare rattlesnakes to kingsnakes? did you make up a rule that said I cannot?

Second I have done lots and lots of field work with many types of kingsnakes, and they follow the same basic patterns.

Seriously, people have a complete lack of knowledge of what these things do in nature. So comparing Basic behaviors is very easy to do and should be done.

I am sure there are differences, but then there are differences amoungst the rattlesnake species too.

for instance, the montanes seem to pair up and group up a bit differently. They do not seem to seperate like the larger rattlesnakes do.

But that is fairly easy to explain. Small snakes can find prey very easily without traveling much. Larger snakes that consume larger prey, must cover larger areas to support their diet.

With the kingsnakes, everyone here should know that species like mountain kings live in fairly dense colonies and for those who watch them and do not collect them. The same individuals stay in a very small area.

There are some snake species that do not fit this mode of behavior, but kings and rattlesnakes are fairly close. One up and out more, the other down and in more.

may already be familiar with these findings:

www.boston.com/yourtown/milton/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=1

i can post links to articles that summarize this info if need be.

That was actually a good read.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

Yes a good read, I am aware that these battles do not or may not help the actual poster, as their minds are already made up.

But there are other readers who are actually interested in more options of keeping snakes and more about the snakes themselves.

The the case below, its a simple problem that the reader can ask themselves. If a wild snake can digest and process large meals, why cannot their captives?

Its a simple ability thats lost with their manner of keeping, which then brings up another question, what other abilities are lost for the same reasons?

Then of course the main question, what reason causes that ability to be lost? That is the key.

The great part about kingsnakes is, even those keepers who are hindering the progress of their captives are by and large doing well. With varanids, its rare to see any success by those type of keepers, varanids weed out the recipe keepers. Varanids require the keepers to use their brains and apply themselves.

So if those recipe keepers never see the light, they are still not total failures. Thanks for the link

In these cases, the keeper does not want to change and is merely asked for backup or confirmation that what they are doing is good. So if that is not given, they are offended and upset and the wars begin.

There indeed are others who want more from their captives, its those keepers that keep us older keepers posting.

Here is my situation. I keep Eastern and Speckled kings. I prefer to keep them alone because it allows me to keep track of them and peace of mind too although I am not opposed to keeping more than one animal together. I don't provide heat because they have done so well without it. I don't have the ability to provide temps in the 50's so I keep them at room temp (70's to 80's) and they have done well. Should I provide a hot spot with a UTH? Will that be enough?
I feed weekly once again as a matter of convenience as I am traveling a lot. I would like to know how much should I feed them? And how often. As hatchlings to juveniles I fed them one item every other day. As long as they were not in shed they ate and grew fast. In the winter I don't feed them. I keep them down lower where it is cooler and darker and just make sure the cages are clean. I keep them in tubs now but plan on using cages in the future. I have never bred them because of my schedule (never attempted it).
I want my kings happy and healthy. I do plan on some breeding but it is not that important. First and foremost is long healthy lives.

Thanks,
Dan

I'm sure they'll get back to you after they stop admiring themselves. Now that they see my name it will be quick!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Hi Dan,

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements

You see, most likely you picked these kind of snakes because they could be kept with minimum effort. You know, your busy and do not have time for daily care.

And yes you can keep them that way. But thats not about those snakes. Its your requirements.

How reptiles and in this case kingsnakes can compete with mammals is, they have the ability to exsist and survive in poor conditions, that is, they can lower their metabolism and outlast mammals.

Which is what we are taught in school. Unfortunately, school forgot to teach us that reptiles can also speed up their metabolism and perform much like mammals and birds(even higher metabolism then mammals) and they do for short periods.

So I ask you, you do not have much time, but you have several species and most likely several individuals of each species. Why not have fewer individuals and support their abilities to their potential. This is just something to think about.

Or take a couple individual snakes and support them better. Usually once you see what they are capable of, you have a hard time not supporting that. As its fun.

The point is, you have options, and you surely do not have to jump in head over heals. Start slow and have fun learning.

About your temps. room temps are fine. The higher the base temps are, the more energy is required to maintain that level of metabolism. During the times they need energy, they would stay in the higher temp areas anyway. As Bluerosy mentioned, information to help you would require actually knowing more about your particular situation.

About heat, kingsnakes only require a very small hot spots. There are many many ways to accomplish that. What exactly you do is based on what kind of cages you have. AND other conditions.

For instance, UTH's would not be good for plastic cages. But ok for glass cages. The only problem there is they are not designed properly. They need to me smaller and not heat up some much cage space. A friend of mine uses small lites, 7 to 15 watt, outside of the cages in one corner and it works really well. again, its not a hard problem to solve. but the exact method would be particular to your setup.

Good luck

I will be settling down very soon. I am willing to put the time in. I picked kingsnakes because I have liked them as a kid and still do. It was never about the ease. If the care was extremely difficult then I would have put it off much as I have done with racers.

How about feeding. How do you approach feeding. I have had kings that pound the food every time. I have had kings that would refuse one week and eat a lot the following week. Since I feed f/t I don't want to thaw out 20 mice and only 8 get eaten.

Dan