Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm on vacation in NorCal and I found this in the Santa Cruz Mountains.

As found:

Posed:

Third Eye

That's just awesome Tim!

Very cool to see she was so healthy and about to produce more of her kind.

Nice pics too!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

So considering they normally lay in may/june, do you think that could be a second clutch, or third???? and why not if you think its not?

It is possible it is her first clutch of the year. It is also possible it is her second, etc. I had a cal king that would breed in the spring as with all my females and she would not lay eggs until August, months after being with a male.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

It doesn't imply anything other than she is gravid now.

And if it's her second clutch, then good for her and that particular population.

As you said, some snakes can breed and lay at very different times of the season. Nobody knows exactly how or why, it is what it is, just like with countless other types of animals in the natural world. There are no hard laws when it comes to nature.

Tornadoes in Canada are extremely rare occurrences too, but they happen from time to time as well..LOL!

BTW, nice Cal. king morphs you posted earlier there Kerby!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks on the compliment......I have 4 more clutches to hatch then I will post clutch pics. I won't post individual pics until after they have shed.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hi Kerby,

From your vast experience, and you do have that. It would line up with your second clutches wouldn't it. I am just saying.

What gets me is, why do folks automatically go against logic and evidence? There is more reason to call it a second clutch, from WHAT WE KNOW, then a late first clutch, based on what we do not know. Funny thought huh?

And if you look at that female, shes a bit thin, like it is her second clutch.

If you want to debate what it is, the entire lack of evidence that points to being a first clutch, vs. repeated events in captivity that match up very well with her timing and weight. Fun stuff hey. As an ex cop, you should be very good at this. No enough to convict, but enough to investigate further.

And don't feel picked on, when I see this in the field I ask that of the other biologists I am with. I ask them why not, they have no answer either. Thanks

yeah...I have to agree...there is nothing to say its a second clutch or 1st....other than time of year....maybe she is thin and thats why it is her 1st clutch...maybe there are not many cal kings in the area and so she just did not hook up until late...maybe both...you really cant say anything without a detailed study of the area...population...food source...etc...unless you just want to argue??
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

Why does it have to be about arguing?

Why does it always have to be black or white with most of you.

All I am saying is, there is far more evidence that its a second clutch, then a first.

All of you have animals, and keep them in all manner of different conditions, yet, they have all reproduced in about the same window. And yes, most of you have already had second clutches.

I do wonder, which means, I do not know, but think about, these animals are bigger stronger and healhier in nature, yet produce less. hmmmmmmmmmm NICE. even individuals that were caught last year, will can multiclutch this year. Odd I tell you.

FR,

Don't you know that kingsnakes stay at constant temp of 82F and only clucth one time per year in the spring. Then they HIBERANATE from Thanksgiving until feb. Just like they do in nature!
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

It has to be black and white because that was a black and white kingsnake.

I had a rat snake that for the three years she bred here, ALWAYS dropped a second clutch of eggs just about the same time her first clutch was hatching. I always found that interesting, and for what it's worth, that would be right about this time o' year. Not sure if that's typical (laying a fresh clutch as the first clutch hatches).

...that I was arguing with you or anyone...the argument here is if it is her 2nd clutch or 1st...and I like others believe there is plenty of evidence to show either ARGUMENT. But you on the other hand seem to want to attack me...why? not sure...Im a Science teacher...I have a degree...and I can tell you in science...you need plenty of evidence to prove something...and their IS evidence for both...
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

Hi Micheal,

I did not attack you, I talked to you. how is that an attack?

Was I suppose to respond to others not you?

As a science teacher, lets be fair, what evidence supports its the first clutch and what evidence supports it could be a second clutch.

The truth is, we do not know and will not know what clutch it is, So this is not about FACT, its about evidence, which does in fact lead to facts.

I recently said that I attribute much of my success to a open minded High school teacher

That teacher taught me to question and THINK.

So thats all I ask, for folks to question and think. Is that not what a discussion board is for?

So please answer my questions, what supports first clutch and what supports second clutch?

the post you just posted is an attack...Im not gonna be drawn into the bs of the attacks on this forum...I gave evidence in my other post...READ IT...good day
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

the post you just posted is an attack...Im not gonna be drawn into the bs of the attacks on this forum...I gave evidence in my other post...READ IT...good day

Huh? What haaaaappened? Did some post get removed?

How in the heck did you read that as an attack?
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

I guess if you ask someone a question that THEY are required to answer, its an attack on them. In a sense, it is, it requires them to actually answer and if they have no answer it exposed them in a negative way. As in, they were attacked. Thats about all I can figure out.

Frank, I left you message down below yesterday, I guess you didn't see it. Here it is.

Frank, in Hubbs book on Mnt kings & common kings he states emergence occurs at different times depending on region and elevation. In his common kings book he also states depending on region, climate and altitude, breeding can take place as late as June. What are your thoughts on that?

not a problem with it. June breeding means July eggs and its mid august and that snake has not laid yet. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Thats all I am saying.

Its just about how people think, thats all.

The area around my house, we have gophers gravid, in late april, may, june, july, august, and september. So do you think they are all first clutches.

I monitors a pyro nesting area, for over 8 years. The babies emerged from Late july until Nov. Just saying, hahahahahahaha

The area around my house, we have gophers gravid, in late april, may, june, july, august, and september. So do you think they are all first clutches.

Yes, I'd say those are all first clutches. hahaha Even though I asked you what you felt about those comments, I don't doubt double clutching is possible in the wild. There is a long period I and most others don't see kingsnakes along the coast down here between July and September. Who knows what they are up to during that time? Gravid females could easily go undetected during that time.

Heres the point, why do you say they are first clutches? you have no evidence, what so ever that is what is happening. But you do know, that in captivity they easily double clutch and rarely triple clutch.

You also know that your captives will copulate and lay eggs, aprox the same time as wild individuals in your area.

You also know what a first clutch female looks like compared to a second clutch.

While that does not prove that a gravid female late in the year is on its second clutch, it does indicate that it is.

Sir, that is important information.

On the otherhand, your prejudiced that every wild gravid snake lays one clutch. And for no reason. What are your reasons?

For instance, I observed a female coachwhip at my house and she without question double clutched and may have triple clutched. I observed her copulate and become gravid on her third clutch but did not observe you laying eggs.

I have observed individual pyros, gravid over four months, hmmmmmmmmmmm how many clutches was that?

Have you ever observed a female that was gravid over long periods in nature? If not, why not?

Frank, I was just kidding.

Excuse me sir, you have absolutely ZERO "evidence" of anything. All anyone can see is a photo of a Cal. king. All of your so-called "evidence" is purely speculation, nothing more.

It is good that you aren't a criminal lawyer and present your "evidence" this way in the court of law..LOL!!

You see sir, evidence is something that is absolute proven fact, and cannot be disputed in any manner whatsoever.

Here is the definition of the word "SPECULATION" which is exactly what you apply here so often, along with many other insulting, condescending bi-product of course.

The definition for the word speculation per Webster's Dictionary is as follows.

ideas or guesses about something that is not known

Your opinions and speculations are nothing more than just that my friend, so stop touting your assumptions, opinions and speculations as hard facts sir, because quite often they are NOT fact, they just are in your own mind sir..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

evidence that demands a verdict
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

hahahahahaha This forum cracks me up. I'd rather talk to you guys on the phone. I get the feeling some people don't really know how they come across here and are not as bad as they sound sometimes. At least I hope. lol

Its not so much how people write, its more about how people read.

There is no question, people divide themselves here. Those that search and pick out negative and those that search and pick out positive. The negative ones are squeaky wheels.

You can see that in every stinking thread. And it really has nothing to do with the subject(See Doug)

In most cases here, people post for confirmation, not to learn. To learn, you actually have to want to learn, most don't want that.

Heres an example, what I am doing is right, right? if they recieve a reply that indicates they are not right or entirely right or somehow can show them in poor lite, the war is on.

As me mommy once told me, do not ask questions where you cannot take/like the answer. That occurs here.

Back to this converation, and thats all it is, a conversation.

Hubbs book, his data is broadbased and generalized. What we are looking at is specific. Thanks

Its not so much how people write, its more about how people read.

Delivery can mean the difference between night and day. Then there are those that can't be told anything. It goes both ways.

Heres your problem, this isn't law, and its not a scientific paper that results in a conclusion.

Its merely observation and deductive reasoning. Which is applied and tested leads to REAL facts.

But then Doug, all your ever do is, be as friggin negative as you can be. Which I hope works out for you. Your not a cup half empty type of person, your a cup so dry it turns to dust type person. Sir, you never add to, you only subtrack from. Thanks

I add helpful suggestions and info to many forums all the time. Only it is much easier to do where the forum isn't DOMINATED by one or two people that always think they have all the answers to everything and constantly find the need to be pric*s to everyone. As a matter of fact, I have saved coutless snakes lives for many different forum members in the past as well with helpful advice. That would make it..."all about the snakes", and not YOU wouldn't it..LOL!!

It's great to get personal emails from people telling me that their snakes are doing so well now because of some helpful advice that I offered. Not long ago a guy told me that his little alterna was regurging constantly and was on deaths door and couldn't even hold down the tiniest of meals. After he did exactly as I suggested, he later told me his previously close-to death snake was holding down huge rat pups now and was 4 times the weight that it once was before all this.

Yeah, I don't ever add anything good to the forums, do I.......SIR!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I love you man!

And even though it was pure sarcasm, I respect that you just left it at that FR. It beats what could have been said by a long shot..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree, it is probably a second clutch.....I was just saying that it can be a first clutch. It is just a picture, so it is just a guess.

If I was in Vegas I would bet that it is a second clutch.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Thanks Kerby,

Thats all I was looking for, rational thinking from someone with experience.

In most cases people look at whats in front of them and base what they see on some preconcieve notion that has nothing to do with what they are looking at.

My bet is, most people here have no idea why they "think" its a first clutch. Other then snakes are only suppose to have one clutch.

But many here know better, and even these people still view the snake world with eyes from the distant past.

The huge question that has always bothered me is, everyone thinks snakes have a hard time finding food in nature, yet nature is full of perfectly healthy snakes. Someone has to explain that to me.

On our sites, if a snake is hungry, it finds food and comes back, not a problem, that is, in normal years. In drought years, not so much. hahahahahahahaha but what are they designed for, drought years or normal years or even abundant years? This is my point.

>> From your vast experience, and you do have that. It would line up with your second clutches wouldn't it. I am just saying.

I'm confused here. His first post in this thread explains he's had some breed with the others but lay on a later schedule, like this one. So his vast experience could line up with first or second clutch.

>> What gets me is, why do folks automatically go against logic and evidence?

Confused again. I've read the posts preceding yours in this thread and can't find anyone saying it's more logically first OR second. If they're not taking a stand, how are they going against logic and evidence?

>>There is more reason to call it a second clutch, from WHAT WE KNOW, then a late first clutch, based on what we do not know. Funny thought huh?

I'd agree with you that it's more likely a second clutch. By "WHAT WE KNOW" I'm guessing you mean "that which more often is the case". That's evidence, but hardly conclusive. You so often write about learning from what the snakes tell us, I'd think you'd be complimenting those who are keeping an open mind.

>> If you want to debate what it is...

Here's where you really lost me. I've reread the posts preceding yours and i can't find any evidence of anyone wanting to debate anything. To what are you referring?

>>the entire lack of evidence that points to being a first clutch

But Kerby gave evidence of a snake that did just this--lay a first clutch later in the year than others. So I'm not sure what you mean by "entire lack of evidence".

>>Not enough to convict, but enough to investigate further.

I liked your expression here very much. Spot on!

>> And don't feel picked on, when I see this in the field I ask that of the other biologists I am with. I ask them why not, they have no answer either.

Given my confusion at multiple points here, maybe they just don't understand what the question is.

(one more comment in my post below)

In my experience (with captive specimens, not wild, I'll grant you) I've gotten hundreds of clutches from Honduran Milksnakes, which were my specialty.

Yes, patterns emerged. First clutches were generally laid within 30 days of one another, from several dozen or more females each year for more than half a dozen years. But every year there were females whose feeding patterns differed from the majority, who ovulated later than the majority, who first accepted copulation later than the majority, and who laid later than the majority, often one or two post-brumation sheds later than the majority.

So--based on the majority of my Lampropeltis females (also included other triangulums, getula, etc) -- I'd say the likelihood is the female Tim observed is gravid with her second clutch. And I'd say it's entirely possible, though less likely, that it's her first.

and given the absence of further evidence we're not likely to have access to regarding that specific female's history, I don't think there's much to debate.

cheers and peace
td

terry,
.

The female cal king looks to be a very healthy wild female which suggest a second clucth. most late clutcers I have had are small or weak in some aspect (finicky feeders etc)and/or i have not figured out why they are..and yes they lay at different times due to their inherent weakness or lack of proper support (whichever). And they look like it. Not sure if this is true with Hondos. but we are talking about cal kings here.

i also lived up in the santa cruz moutains (Boulder creek) and saw and collected kings up there. Some even in my back yard. From what i exprienced in that area make it reasonable to beleive this was a seond clutch animal .

I think the real point here is peoples anymosity to the whole bonding and feeding issues we have had.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

In your first reply you over analized the entire world.

This reply is what I was looking for.

Heres whats funny, there is knowledge to be gained from every observation like this one. Being absolutely right is not supported in nearly all observations, so why are you asking for math, when its not math?

Events like this one, when repeated will lead to one or two observations that can allow a conclusion to be made. But you must keep your mind open. Yes it could be a first clutch, or a second, even a third.

The point is, most say, its a first clutch and you cannot proof its not. Now, how does this help learning about the animal? All this type of thought does is wall that person in from actual learning.

Back to this photo. You will also notice how thin the female is, which is also an indicator of a second clutch. You know this from your experiecne as well. again not conclusive, but it adds to the observation.

Are there other details in that photo that can indicate ANYTHING?

I lived up in the Santa cruz mountains for a stint. From when i found neonates, I would assume it the second clutch.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

Frank, in Hubbs book on Mnt kings & common kings he states emergence occurs at different times depending on region and elevation. In his common kings book he also states depending on region, climate and altitude, breeding can take place as late as June. What are your thoughts on that?

I have found several Cal Kings in the Nor Cal Mtns that were gravid in late June with their first clutch. Once you gain a little elevation spring comes later. Even with the prolonged cool weather we had this spring it is difficult to think this is a first clutch unless this female had a difficult winter and took a while to put on some weight. Even that is a reach for how late this is in the season. The weather up here has remained mild this summer so is perfect for second clutches. My Santa Barbara zonata double clutched this year and I live in the Valley where it usually gets burning hot by July. Not this year.
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Rick Staub

Thanks Rick. After reading Hubbs comments, I imagined there would be a bigger gap between here and the upper elevations up north. I've found gravid females in mid June here, which is pretty close to your findings up there.

Hi Ross, you seem to be working on an assumption as to when snakes cycle.

If you actually check, there is very little varaiation between Kings in SoCal and kings in Washington/oregon. Or here in tucson where its much hotter earlier.

The point is, assumptions or prejudices. You have them, and thats fine, but do not let them control you.

So again, you have no evidence that a kingsnake gravid in mid august is on its first clutch and in fact, that is highly unlikely based on what you know.

Hi Ross, you seem to be working on an assumption as to when snakes cycle.

The point is, assumptions or prejudices. You have them, and thats fine, but do not let them control you.
Frank, I only assume what I don't know but I'm not using those assumptions to make a point. All I asked for were your thoughts to see if I could learn a little more about what I don't know and then maybe I wouldn't have to assume. So far I have got all my info from Hubbs, but I like to hear what others, that have been around longer than my self, think as well.

So again, you have no evidence that a kingsnake gravid in mid august is on its first clutch and in fact, that is highly unlikely based on what you know.
Maybe if I was making a stance here, I would need evidence, but I'm not, so I don't need it. lol Like I said, all I wanted to hear were your thoughts on that because I thought it was interesting that aspect hadn't been discussed here. Thank you.

i am doing exactly what you ask. To help you understand.

Do not prejudice your observations. In this case you do, you assume its a first clutch, when in fact it could be a first OR a second. So without any evidence what so ever, your SAYING its a first, or thinking its a first.

Doing that does no good for you, or others you talk to.

For instance, I do field work, The first thing I had to relearn was, do not judge the data. That is, do not even bother to think its this or that. You take data.

After you have numbers, then you can crunch them and the data speaks for itself.

I believe the biggest problem with this is not about the first clutch or second clutch. Its some base belief that snakes cannot find food well. Biologist in many cases assume the same. They and you think or react as if wild snakes cannot find food when its needed.

Again the evidence shows something other then that. Most wild snakes are very healthy. Some extremely healthy. Of course in drought years in the west, the percentage of healthy snakes drops. But still there are numbers of extremely healthy snakes.

So, as a collector breeder, you should know that you can catch a wild female and the next year in captivity she can or will double clutch. So its not a genetic type of thing, its merely a support type of thing.

So you assume, wild snakes cannot find food or support their natural abilities. Yet, the average wild snake is as healthy or more healthy then the average captive. Is that not true?

I hear you, Frank. I don't know why you think I don't think snakes can find enough food to double clutch. This very well could be this snakes first clutch or second, IMO. I see the possibility as both, do you not and why if not?

I think what Frank is trying to do is to get people to think outside of the box. . To open up your minds and try not to be so constrictive...LOL!

The way the mindset is in herpetoculture. It is at a standstill.. Nobody will learn anything about the snakes. Just what they were first indoctrinated into. It is time to grow up and look at the data again. and are very resistent. Most of you are way past that maturity.. going by how long you have been keeping snakes.

What baffles me is how many of you are resistent to change. To want to master that. That starts with you!
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

"What baffles me is how many of you are resistent to change. To want to master that. That starts with you!"

Exactly what is your idea of this "mastering" snakes and herpetoculture that you are speaking about?, producing a bunch of scaleless Texas Rats x Pueblan milks, etc...?

....big, heavy *sigh*
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I do not know what it is, but the timing and condition of the animals indicates it could be a second clutch.

Because its without history, we will never know.

If we go back to the start, several stated its the first. Then backtracked and said it could be the second.

Whats odd is, it could be the second also means it could be the first. So you do not need to say, its the first or most likely the first, etc. Simply stating, that it very well could be the second, based on timing and condition, that also implies that it still could be the first.

As I stated, there is no evidence that it is the first. And merely timing and condition that its the second. Which cannot prove anything.

What is odd to me is, observation is not about exact or proof, observation, is merely observation, us guessing at what an animal is doing.

Repeated observations are what lead to facts. Or other observations that are tied/connected to the original observation.

Thanks Frank, one more question and I'll leave you alone. lol In all your years, have you ever seen breeding, in wild populations, pushed back maybe a couple of weeks or more due to abnormally cool Spring time temps or any other factors?

testing 123
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Excellent find. I normally herp the northern edge of the SC mountains in the Santa Clara/San Mateo county areas and noticed that a lot of snakes can be found gravid around this time (such as gophers, Charina [pregnant?], etc). I've recently stumbled upon a pair of San Mateo zonata that apparently were breeding in mid June.

What county are you herping? Any details on the cal king? (temps, AC vs. natural cover, etc)? No need to spill any specific info...just like to know more

Man...field herping rules

What did it taste like?