Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys, I'm still new at this and have heard a few things here and there about double clutching but I am unsure how it happens or what I can do to help make it happen. I think I read somewhere the female doesn't have to breed a second time to double clutch, is that true? In this case, I'm working with Cal kings, do they double clutch as easy as Florida kings?

Double clutching is primarily triggered by the females receiving plently of food as soon as possible after her laying. Although I have some (corns) that double clutch no matter what. The male does not have to be introduced again to double clutch, but it will certainly better the chances of fertile eggs. But you could very well get a second clutch of perfectly good eggs without introducing the male again if circumstances are right.

--Dennis

Thanks, Dennis. I will remember that.

I specifically try to NOT double clutch my cal kings. For starters I do not bring them up early. I wait until March to bring them up and I shut them down in October. Why? Because I live at a higher altitude and that is closer to the cycle of the cal kings found in the wild WHERE I LIVE. So that does not leave much room for double clutching.

If you WANTED to double clutch your cal kings, then I would feed right after the first laying of eggs and feed often, and introduce the male. Should be no problem. Yes, they can double clutch without the introduction of the male the second time.....it happens to me every now and then. I don't power feed my snakes.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Thanks for that bit of info, Kerby!

kerby,
My Florida kings breed late as well. I have my first clucthes in August. They still double and triple for me.

I do something similar to you. I go by what the season is doing outside. The snakes breed when spring actually arives. Which is not the exact time on the calander every season. They havn't read the receipe cook book on breding and can't read calendars.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

And although I am in Arizona and Frank is 225 miles south of me,.....and a lot lower in elevation (unless he lives on a mountain) well lets just say that Arizona is not the same throughout. It may "rarely" snow in the low desert, but it definitely snows up here, and this winter we were -4 below on New Year's Eve. I use the outside weather as my key to when to shut them down and when to bring them back up.

It won't be the same everywhere. And every species is different. I can still find Wandering garter snakes out on a sunny afternoon in November even though the nights are below 32 degrees......and of course rattlesnakes come out of their dens to bask in the sun during the warmer part of the day. But where I live, I have never seen a cal king out and about during November, December, January, and February. Obviously different in the lower elevation. I see them on my property in March through October.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Hi Kerby,

You base your husbandry on you controlling the snakes in a way thats proved successful to you. And there is nothing wrong with that.

What you miss is, the snakes have the ability to make their own decisions. As that is what they do in nature. They work different areas, and achieve the same results. As you mentioned. We are lower then you and have warmer winters, yet in both areas the snakes produce eggs about the same time. And yes, it varies a tab from year to year, but not much.

That variation covers our different locals. Your kings are gravid and laying the same time our kings are gravid and laying.

Decade ago when the protocals for kingsnake husbandry was being developed, there were two/three schools of thought.

One was photoperiod developed by Ernie Wagner. The other was hibernation developed by the Tucson gang, Ron Savage, Brent Martin, Steve Hale, and I, theres one more, dang if I can remember his name.

I was also a member of the third school that is, free choice(very primitive then)

Ernies completely attributed his success and it was massive, on photoperiod. Of note, multiclutching was rare. I practive hibernation and all my snakes double clutched.

As a zoo builder, I move to seattle to work on woodland park zoo, of which Ernie was curator of reptiles.

I drove up in the fall and dropped all my snakes off at Ernies, while I found a house and moved in.

Ernie came to my house and I went to his. What was funny was, he kept his snakes in his basement and it was 55F year a round. But he also used heat strips. If he saw a snake active in the winter he fed it, he said they would feed in the winter, but less often then in the summer, maybe four or five times over winter.(individuals varied)

of course our snakes were kept at 55F in our basement and we did not feed them.

Well the outcome was very funny, I told Ernie was in fact hibernating them and said no. His animals fed in the winter. hmmmmmmmmmmm

Well, I guess it was Ernie that allowed me to see it was more about choices snakes make then telling them they are hibernating now. While in fact, our snakes and his had the same low temps. his had a wider range to pick from IF NEEDED.

Well what resulted was funny, my snakes either produced right off the bat or they were done. his bred over most of the summer until fall.

Like if I have a small female, it may not produce that year, his would grow up then produce in the fall. I like that!

So like the copy cat that is me. I intergraded both methods into one. Let the lows be the same, just allow them to gain heat if needed.

Which makes one wonder why those snakes in cold country gather in the hottest spots they can find. Hillsides facing the entire winter sun. Odd I tell you. Where down here, we get that, but in much lower numbers per site.

About your kingnake observations. Do kings ever come up and out in number??? Of course when temps do not permit, kings are below ground level, in fact, thats where they are the vast majority of their lives, including summer. So you make an analogy using less then 1 or 2 percent of the individuals.

I think I would use the other 98% or 99% to back up my thoughts.

I will say, our kings here lay at the same time yours do there. End of may begining of june. Hmmmmmmmmm odd huh?

Hi Ross, ARE YOU READY. hahahahahaha

As the first and pioneer of cal king multiclutching, I do not think or practice it like some others here.

First its not so much about amount of food as it is about the amount of wasted energy. That is the key, to not waste energy or waste food.

From reading your posts your a field collector of cal kings and you seem to specialize in AC and the use of AC.

THat understanding is important here.

So before I pea off folks like Kirby and others, do you want me to go there. Its simple, they do it, you don't. And its very normal to them. If you support them with conditions they know how to use, its so easy on them and normal. Thanks

Hi Ross, ARE YOU READY. hahahahahaha

hahahahah OH NO, HERE WE GO!!!! LOL

do you want me to go there

Please do, I'm all ears.

This is way to long to do in one post, so I will start slowly.

reptiles, kingsnakes are living animals. If you break them down, their task is to consume energy and process it and convert it into more snakes, to recruit. Their task is to do that up to their genetic limit. An advanced thought, they developed that limit to use, they do not have it to NOT USE. think about it.

As reptiles, they are ectotherms. so they utilize their enviornment to achieve those tasks.

In short, really short, they use heat to increase their metabolism.

And cool to decrease their metabolism to conserve energy. With snakes, some species are EXPERT at conserving energy. That is their life design.

I think you understand that. But what falls on deft ears is, they conserve energy in order to USE IT. Use all of it. Why the heck else would they conserve it? sorry, about to rant here. will wait for later.

What is missed on this forum and in many classrooms is, snakes work from a base of cool(conservation) and use heat(expending energy) for short periods. Even in the spring/summer/fall.

Simply put, they stay cool until the enviornment allows them to utilize heat, at that time, they attempt to expend energy. With adults, that means reproduction, with subadults that means growth.

How they do that is THEIR MAGIC. They do that by going to cool or cooler, as soon as they can, so that no energy is wasted. This is how they compete with mammals(which cannot do that)

in effect, they use as little heat as they can. Which for you Ross explains why they are under AC in the early spring, they need the newly available heat to kick start the reprodcutive season or season of growth, thats all they do you know, one or the other or both at once.

So, they come from where ever the heck they are(being cool) to seek only enough heat to do whats needed. Then back to cool as soon as possible.

That paragraph is key. NO WASTED ENERGY, that is their behavioral design.

The actual key to this in nature is hydration, with will not reproduce or grow, to use energy, unless they can maintain hydration, that is their first choice. again as a AC flipper, you know that. If its not suitably humid under that AC, NO SNAKES.

Ok, hopefully folks will not go all stupid and divert this thread in all manner of "other" directions.

So, what do you think so far. Does this meet your field experiences? Once we come to a common understanding with this, then we can move out to the real question of energy consumption and usage. Thanks

Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me, Frank. Even though there are times when conditions (moisture) could support 100% of the population (or even a very high percentage) to be found under boards and other AC, you never see it. So it does make sense they are seeking heat for specific reasons, then retreat to cooler temps under ground after a while. And it can get pretty hot under that AC. I'm sure there are a lot of set ups that don't allow those kinds of choices, I know mine don't.

Now for me being me, you know, irratating others. hahahahahaha

Sorry for any I do that too, its not about you, but about your methods, terminolgy and such.

Such terms are power feeding are such bad terms and very very misused. For instance, it cannot be powerfeeding if you feed a hungry animals, its only eating what it thinks it needs. What is happening instead is, when there are problems, its more about keeper not supporting the snakes efforts. In this case, if a snake is consuming a lot, it must have the metabolism to utilize that energy, which means more usable heat. As Bluerosy says, and I agree, they do not get fat, all they do is produce more.

Of course there are qualifications to that. Old indiviuduals will get fat, they stop or slow down reproduction. Also older males sometimes get a bit out of hand.

Those are not the norm, but exceptions that can be dealt with individually.

What is odd to me is, every method does not fit all individuals, so why do folks want this method where the snakes predict their choices and needs be different?

So yes, if supported, its very normal for kingsnakes to double clutch and at times triple. I have heard of more, but have not experienced it.

I have seen triple clutches twice in nature, once with pyros and once with a black coachwhip.

So how much they need to be fed is based on what control they have on their metabolism. How much they produce is based on the individuals processing energy into yolk mass efficentily.

Thanks

Thanks a lot FR. It all boils down to giving them choices.

Exactly, as a field herper, you know they make choices as to where to go, all the time. They utilize their enviornment. As a AC flipper, your task is to figure out what natural conditions causes them to use your AC lines. You do know what supports that, don't you. You also know, they do not use that AC all the time, just at certain times and for certain reasons.

Snakes pick places they can spend hours at, then move to the next place. Lizards pick places they spend minutes at, then move to the next place.

Its all about finding whats needed to support what they are doing. Yet in captivity, we(whats normal these days) is give them the middle of the middle, then wonder why they have marginal problems.

As a field guy, its so so so plain to see, the way we keep them is no where as good as the average conditions in nature. In nature, they have more of everything. And its not close.

Whats funny is, we all know they live with parasites in nature, not a problem, they can heal from horrifying wounds, they live throught freezing and heat, and floods and drought.

In nature prey is available all the time, 24/7, all they have to do is get it. If they find a lot, is that power feeding???? In captivity they feed when we allow them to feed, not when they are hungry.

Yet in captivity, they must be fixed from those problems and still they are touchy. Worm them, don't allow cold or hot, etc etc.

Then we think the captives can outproduce the wild ones?????????? Why do we think that, when everything else they do in nature is superior to what occurs in captivity? Oh I know, because we know what they do in captivity and do not have a clue as to what they do, reproduction wise, in nature. hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks

I agree. There is no doubt we can't and never will be able to duplicate, in a cage, what snakes have in nature. Understanding what they do in nature, I believe, can further the understanding of these animals and what's best for them, not us. I'll be the first to admit I have a lot to learn about wild kingsnakes and what they are doing during the times of year I can't find them.

j
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http://southerncaliforniakingsnakes.weebly.com/

m
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b
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c
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FR

I like that explanation and it seems very rational about reptiles in general...
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

Feed the female a lot! Food supply is what triggers the females to produce more eggs. It's not rocket science! Nature has built in checks and balances, so if an area is overun with rodents, it triggers the snakes to produce more to achieve a balance! I would definately try to get them to copulate again, but even if they don't there is a chance she may still lay good eggs. I however have not had it happen without the additional Mating. Laying eggs takes a lot out of the females, so make sure you continue to feed her well after she lays regardless of trying for more eggs or not. Good luck, and have fun.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

there is a window of time that needs to be understood. In my experience females will usually be receptive to the male shortly after they lay the first clutch, and have regained some strength by eating. If you try too soon, or much later you may miss the window of opertunity. There is a rhythm to it. Many second clutches are being laid while the first clutch is hatching, or close to that.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

My hypos 2nd clutch was laid about a week before her 1st hatched.

I just left the male in during the whole thing (briefly removed when she looked like she was going to lay, just so he didn't eat the egg).
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Thanks. I will also note that.

Jorge, that will go down in my notes for sure. Thanks a lot!

>>Jorge, that will go down in my notes for sure. Thanks a lot!

The "norm" if for keepers to stop even offering meals when the female refuses her first normal sized prey......Add that time prior to her shed cycle time to the time between her pre egg laying shed and her depositing her eggs in that box you provide and you will have around a month of no food intake.....No wonder they look so skinny when they lay their eggs.......

When your female is gravid with her first clutch keep feeding her small meals....She will sometimes turn down her normal sized meals so offer rat pinks or other smaller meals.....They will sometimes eat through their shed cycle but not always....and only some do....

Another good thing to note is a suitable nesting area (not just a box with damp moss in it).......If your female lays eggs within a few days after her shed instead of the "cookie cutter" 10 days plus then she will not use up all of her reserves and will produce a second clutch easier......

And yes....Caloric intake yields eggs........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks a lot for that, John. Some stuff there I didn't consider.

mine both ignored the normal chicks/small rats when gravid but would eat a few hopper mice once to twice a week (like 4-5 hoppers/week). I'm hoping to do better on the nest boxes; all three clutches took ~10-14 days after the pre lay shed to get laid.
>>
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.