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I have only one MTS.I didnt buy another one because i dont know whether the one i could buy is a male or a female and i do know that if i buy another male he and Leonardo will fight.Do you think Leonardo is depressed because he is alone? Iguanas and Leopard Geckos love to be alone in their cages, MTS are not like that?

Besides, like you mentioned, you do not know his sex, so worrying if he is lonely or not is a waste of time. Focus your worries on his husbandry (food, enclosure) needs. That is all you can do. I will say this. Just because they can be found in groups does not mean that all of the sudden we have an animal with the capacity to feel loneliness. They are also found in solitary situations. I am all for keeping them in colonies, but it is also a very dangerous undertaking that requires constant monitoring, and often rearranging of the furnishings, and removal of members that may trigger fights. More often than not seemingly peaceful colonies loose all sense of order for no apparent reason, and very nasty fights break out, often resulting in serious injury and/or death. It usually takes a great amount of time, patience, and luck to get a harmonious colony going. It is not always as easy as it seems. It would seem that being kept in a colony can be even more stressful than a singular situation.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Hi James,

In what you describe holds True for Blue-Tongues but, at least in my experience, does not apply predominately for Corucia. Once a Circulus is established, There is usually harmony. True, If a 2nd male is introduced, pandemonium breaks out or in the case of 3 year old offspring - they may be shoed off by a female with a newborn; but generally speaking I don't see the scenario with Corucia you mentioned. BTS yes. It could be also that one has misfired in sex determination when pairing Corucia which might be the reason for the lack of harmony.

Reverentur,
Brian
SFCRC

I've always had trouble accurately sexing these. As a result My SURE pair, using the ratios of body size and head structure turned out to be reversed. My male was female and my female was the male. In any event, I have been rescuing several more and there was a smaller younger one that was kept with another for about 4 months. After I was sure of health I introduced both to the new enclosure. The younger one (not a juvenile tho, just not full size) got along great and the other (which is blind not that that matters) immeadiately began fighting with my known female. I removed him obviously. I watched every evening for a week or so before i began to trust them together for sure. The blind one has been alone since it seems incompatible with my other circulus. I recently acquired another such rescue that is rather skinny but n good health besides this. I'm going through the normal beef up drill, but I obtained it rather suddenly without warning and put it in with the blind on at first. They got along fine, but it still seems to eat less than normal PTS and does not pack on weight as easily. The pelvic girdle and backbone is slightly visible, but not bad. Is this likely due to intimidation from the blind PTS? Should i remove them? The blind one is VERY fat. I have never observed any aggression between them. NO new scars or blemishes. They often share hiding places, eat from the same plate (i still put 2 in there on opposite sides just to make sure)etc etc. Any suggestions?

As a side problem is almost always escapes when i try to observe it eating etc etc. What would you do to this individual?

oh yea the reason i mentioned sexing is that the new one looks more male to me as I see you guys sex them from pictures. My male in the larger enclosure looks female and the blind on looks EXACTLY like my other male, but I think the newer skinny one was attempting "foreplay" on the blind on the other night, licking its sides, sltroking sides, small nips that didnt leave a mark etc. any ideas? I;ve had leopard geckos that I've had to seperate so the male will eat and stop breeding, You think this "female" may be distracting the "male"
Justin

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location LEE/1.

JCAL,

Female Corucia do indeed often take the first inititive in mating.

reverenter,
Brian
SFCRC

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

JCAL,

Although stress due to an environmental factor could be a cause, If this individual was not dewormed or deparasitized in other aspects, This would also cause behavioral problems and loss of appetite. The proof is in the poop. A runny foul smelling odor-off color is a taletale sign. Depending on what they eat, Corucia poop should be a dark brown-shaped like a pretzel nugget- and should have a 'smokey wood' smell. You can try separation, but if this last one was not quarantineed, you better have both evaluated.

I hope this helps,

Brian
SFCRC

I have seen proven females that have gone bizzerk on any other skink that would get near it. I did not say that colonies do not work, I said they need to be monitored closly. I was not speaking about BTS, as I have a great deal of experience with other herps. I was speaking of PTS. I like colonies, but they do need monitoring, and they do often go "bad" and need to be reworked. I do agree that mis-sexing is probably a big contributer to that. I will say that you are the only person that I am aweare of that has never had a problem with fighting in your colony(s). In the past I had great luck, in that I would not mess with a good thing. If I aquired a proven pair, then I kept them that way. If I started a group, I limited the size to a trio (1.2). In doing this, I never had a problem with agression. I was just too worried about everyone else that would tell me about their horror stories. I did however have that one female that was absoluetly anti-social, so that is how I housed her.

James,

Not to disregard what you say, but to say Brian is the only person to experience harmony within an established Circulus would be an incorrect assumption. Granted, I have witnessed initial male-male, Female-female territorial disputes, but in my experience and in conversations with others; have I known of abrupt relationship changes within an established Circulus. There are exceptions to most things, But I believe the general trend is for Harmony to prevail.

Best Regards,
Jean

Sorry, The sentence should have started, "I Have not known..."

I feel compelled to attempt to clear up what I see as a few misunderstandings:

1st – J-Cal said:
…as a result My SURE pair, using the ratios of body size and head structure turned out to be reversed.
…oh yea the reason i mentioned sexing is that the new one looks more male to me as I see you guys sex them from pictures.

Brian mentioned when he posted the C-A ratio information that it is not a definitive method, and he is correct. In the same vein, you cannot reliably sex PTS based on pictures.
The most reliable way that I am aware of to sex them is to examine genitalia, and even that is not 100%. If you do manage to pop hemepenes (difficult in adults) you can be certain you have a male, but failure to do so doesn’t automatically indicate a female.
Someone mentioned blood tests earlier. This would be an even more reliable method. I’d love it if whoever posted that could post some info on what lab is doing the tests (especially since I have a suspected female that I would love to verify).

2nd – as to keeping Corucia in community situations – there seems to have been a misunderstanding. James Wilson wrote:
…I did not say that colonies do not work, I said they need to be monitored closly.

And Jean P wrote:
…but to say Brian is the only person to experience harmony within an established Circulus would be an incorrect assumption.

James is not saying (if I understand him correctly) that Corucia can’t reliably be kept in a community tank. He’s just saying that they can’t always be kept that way. There have been instances of individuals living harmoniously one day and killing each other the next. It is a risk all keepers need to be mindful of. It is also a risk that some might not be willing to take.

Sorry if I'm intruding, just couldn't help myself.

-Z

n/p

Here is the link.

If it doesnt open you can copy it.Tell me if it doesnt work!
Flavia

http://www.zoogen.biz/forms/dna_form.pdf

I will call Zoogen- they are located in the same town as me. They are an excellent company for DNA sexing parrots- but they DNA test specific species of parrots and not others. They can do some 20 species, but only the ones they have done the research on for DNA comparision. I only see green iguana on their order form- totally different animal than the prehensile tailed skink. I doubt they would run the test, or if the result would have meaning- but I will ask! If they can do it, I will sending blood samples in next week....
Cheers, Jess b

According to a friend of mine who used to work as a technician in vets clinics they can sex any reptile!

Please let me know what you find out. I would love to have
a confirmation on my "girl".

-Z

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Good luck Jess on this important Quest. Please let us know the outcome.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Thank you Z, That is exactly what I was trying to say. People seem to let their strong emotions on the subject of PTS interfere with their interpretation of what I am trying to say. I get tired of constantly trying to reexplain myself. At least I know there is one person that is understanding what it is that I am saying. For the record, I actually do like to keep PTS in groups better, but I would never critize anyone for keeping them alone or even raising up a baby alone, and I do not think it is fair for others to either.

In your guy's opinion, should I add a second female to my pair to make a trio or not? I understand that it'd be a difficult undertaking, but I also know it's possible. If I do, would a baby or an adult be a better choice? In his book, Phillippe de Vosjoli also states that harmony is hard to accomplishing. He specifically mentions females who are gravid or have young being extremely aggressive and how hierarchy has to be re-established if one should die.

You can try, but I probably would not. In the past when I kept trios, I started out by introducing one male and two unrelated females into a new enclosure all at the same time. Once a pair is established it can be a bit scary adding a new potentially disruptive element to your harmonious situation. It would be a tough decision for me. I could write all day (and night) about this.

Thanks James. The pair are imports that I just received. My supplier placed them together a month ago and they've only been together for a month. They're currently in quarantine right now. If I was to acquire a third PTS, she'd be in quarantine separately. The pair is in temporary housing because I want to make sure there's no mites and they're completely healthy before placing them in there. Does that reduce the risk any? I definitely do not need to have a trio.

This is a much better situation than establishing a new female to an established pair in their established enclosure. it would be even better (f space permited)to quarantine all three of them in seperate enclosures until they are all ready to be introduced into their new enclosure. Either way, your situation is not so bad.

.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1

Hi,

We usually keep single pairs but two enclosures (C99-1, C22-2) Have 2 females with a single male. The C99-1 Circulus is noted for the adoption and raising of several GFO youngsters. If the circulus is formed and long standing, the introduction of a new female may prove to be a forelorn hope. You could remove all into a new enclosure to disrupt familiarity. A male introduced to a existing enclosure of 2 females is the best way to create a triad. C99-1's Alpha female (SFCRC 9902) has produced 2 young.
The Beta female (SFCRC 9903) has had her first this year.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Thanks!Although i know Leonardo is a male (i saw his "parts"!)i was starting to wonder if i had done any good saving his life (at that filthy petshop he should be dead by now!)!According to the messages below it seems that a MTS's life only matters if you can breed it!

Flavia,

With all due respect, You are taking things out of context.

Yes, You rescued him from that 'filthy pet shop' and although that allows the 'filty' dealer to restock as he has a sellable item, You did a noble thing to that point. However, to deny an endangered species to ever pass his genes is not saving him overall or doing his species justice. Perhaps not now-but someday soon-this should be a priority if you love Leonardo.
Otherwise, he will lanquish as a table-top plaything. That becomes just as bad as staying in the petshop because his future HAS ended as his line has ended.

Best Regards,
Jean

I think you are right and i know my responsabilities regarding Leonardo and the specie to which he belongs! But as i said before besides Leonardo i know only 3 others MTs in Malaysia.All of them are males!The one that is in the petshop i dont know its gender but it looks like a male becuse he is identical to Leonardo!Twins!What can i do right now?Of course when and IF i find another MTS, a female, ill try to breed him.Anyway, its too early to talk or to think about that because Leonardo is still a Juvie!

Flavia,

Think of it as if you were ripped away from your family and your home transported far away and placed with strange items (Toys) and never see another of your kind again. Never to have chidren-to love etc. Would you be happy to have a family?

Whebn you made the commitment to take on an endangered species you took on an obligation to do whatever you can to ensure the species survival. This means aquiring a mate. If you cannot arrange this, This is sad because these type of things should have been considered before Leonardo was purchased.

Best regards,
Jean

My GOD! Im not leting a helthy and gorgeous MTS die in a filthy petshop because i dont have a female RIGHT NOW!Cant you guys wait a little bit? Leonardo is only a juvie, he can wait!

Here I have Dill. The one and only PTS I have ever seen in my life.
I too suffer from the guilt of feeling like I am doing her a diservice by ONLY having her.
I look at her, and I feel sad. Sad that she is alone. Sad that she will most likely never have a mate.
When I acquired her (also from an evil petshop) the intention was that she would not stay with me, but make a journey south of the border. With no CITES papers, no proof of origin, this was soon realized to be an impossibility.
I know of TWO other people here in Canada, reasonably close by that have PTS. One is another pet shop owner, who can't guarantee that he would keep Dill forever, rather than turn around and sell her...the other person is quite a distance away, and presented themself as something they were not, to try and get me to GIVE Dill to them, then turned around and bought five of the illegal imports.
So, what else am I to do? My choices like your's are very limited.
If falling head over heels in love with Dill, and wanting to give her the best life possible makes me a bad person...then I guess I'm a bad person.
Perhaps one day I will find a mate for her...but I don't have a crystal ball to know that for sure, and because of that chance that I may never find a mate for her, I should of left her to die in a pet shop?
I don't think so.
-----
Kim

I also dont have the intention to let my sweet Leonardo to die in that evil petshop because i couldnt until now find him a girl friend! As i said before , marriage can be postponed, death is definitive!
I think Brian or perhaps any other person that raises MTS can help you find a husband for your girl!I wish i lived closer to you like that we could introduce Leonardo to her!lol!

While I understand the points made that there's a responsibility for an endangered species' owner to breed & help maintain the species, I think everyone's anthropomorphizing a bit too much. These are lizards. They don't get "lonely" or "sad" or "wish they had a mate". Those are all human feelings. On the same vein, it is silly to ask how you, a human, would feel being seperated from your family & not allowed a mate. Lizards do not dream about their futures or spend their days philosophizing & imagining "what would life be like if only..." Just take good care of them, give them your love & care & enjoy their presence in return. They will neither love you nor hate you for it. Care about them for what they are- your lizard pet.
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0.3.0 leos, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 frogs Buffy the Cricket Slayer, Butrose Butrose Froggy
0.0.5 firebelly newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Juice Newton & Olivia Newton John
1.1.0 cats Gus & Mena

I am personally tired ofstating this. Thank you for saving me the trouble. Thanks again!

.

I believe the saying is "ignorance is bliss." However, when I look at how you put it it explains many of your views. It is funny, but I cannot see how my agreeing to that post could cause you to feel so threatened. The opionion presented was a valid one.

Flavia

I commend you on saving the PTS from the pet store. Simply because an animal did not have a mate doesn't mean that it cannot or should not be saved. We may try to be noble, but we are only human.

You are not making more room for another PTS to come into the petstore because importation has been closed. Even if you are never able to find a mate, that does not mean he has to be condemned to die. The survival instinct in animals is much higher than in humans. He simply wants to survive and thrive.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Buffy's mom,

It might be educational for you to view the post: Reply: VERY- VERY long.

Reverentur,
Brian

SOUTHERN CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

If you can't swing it-you can't swing it. But to say you would never entertain the possibilty is what was in question. As it has been stated before, you are both to be commended for your rescue efforts.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

Hello Brian, I just wanted to let you know that what you have said on this forum is without a doubt helpful to other MTS breeders and owners. But I also wanted to let you know that I paid to do a backround check on certain people that I feel have a problem in dealing with a social environment!! I feel that I will be attacked for this, but feel that you should know that I have found that certain individuals are past the age of reproducing and attack the opposite sex as sort of a comforting felling to venting thier frustration. Some people have taken on a certain attack mode because their environment does not permit reproducing and never will. Monkey Tail skinks need an evironment that will ensure and facilitate reproduction, not everyone who owns one can do this and that is OK!!!! Bottom line is help who you can and let those who do not know much or want to know much about a certain species say what they want, for those truely concerned will understand what exactley you are saying and take it to HEART!!!!!!!

Uh, you've confused me.

Are you trying to say MTS become aggressive when they are not in a breeding situation or that there are people on this group who attack because they're not in a breeding situation?

If it's the first -- what skink did you do a background check on?

If it's the second -- well, you're just a strange person.

-Z

>>Uh, you've confused me.
>>
>>Are you trying to say MTS become aggressive when they are not in a breeding situation or that there are people on this group who attack because they're not in a breeding situation?
>>
>>If it's the first -- what skink did you do a background check on?
>>
>>If it's the second -- well, you're just a strange person.
>>
>>-Z
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Edward
Carpe diem

You really do enjoy your perspective on things, and the way you present it. Truly objective, intelligent, and even humorous at times. I am not worthy!

I really do enjoy your perspective on things, and the way you present it. Truly objective, intelligent, and even humorous at times. I am not worthy!

Kim, this may sound a bit strange, but as much as I do not like you, I must agree with both you and Flavia. You Both did what you felt was right. Noone can take that from you.

ohmygoodness!!

That made me LAUGH! "...as much as I do not like you"

I appreciate your honesty! I'm sure you didn't intend for me to find that humorous, but for some reason, I did!
I'm really not such a bad person! You may come to like me one of these days, you just never know!

Regardless, thank you for your support!
-----
Kim

I find almost everything I say to be very funny. I also realize that our animosity was based on a misunderstanding. Brian may be able to fill you in.

HUNH?

I'm lost.

Email me, and fill me in....pleeeeease.
-----
Kim

.

What are you saying? Listen, in the past I have been quite outspoken in my opinions in regard to some of Flavia's decisions. She has made me furious at times, and I have been critical of Flavia when I felt it was appropriate. However, I can't for the life of me see what she has done wrong here. I am personally sick of all of these PTS people forcing their anthropamorphized opinions on to others. Please give me a break, and start looking at these animals for what they are, and respecting them for what they are. If you want to put some emotions on an animal check out the plight of the Gorilla, or the Elephant, or maybe the Tiger. These animals all live in a fragile existence. Shall we pull as many of them out of the wild and into captivity as we can so as to "save" them? First, PTS are not listed as endangered. Second, it is not the job, or responsibility of the private sector to reproduce them, and third, it can be argued that anyone that purchases a PTS is contributing to this species demise (at least in the wild). I realize that everyone is going to go bananas responding to this with terrible stories about how their habitat is going to be gone in a matter of a few years (I have been hearing this for years). Come on now folks. I will save all of your fingers some work. This argument is a rationalization to justify their actions. I am tired of people deluding themselves into thinking that by keeping a species in captivity that they are somehow saving the species. At best they are saving them in captivity, while contributing to the loss of them in the wild. Flavia's efforts here are as noble and honest as any of ours. I do not see how anyone can judge her for what she has done. I realize that she too is guilty of anthropomorphising PTS but so are many of you. I find it Ironic that others of you criticize her. Cut her some slack here, and take a long look at yourselves and your motivations, and the ramifications of your decisions when you go buy an animal. Who is to say that every PTS in captivity should be bred. Who are we to play God. How does breeding them justify keeping them? If you guys really cared that much about the plight of PTS, then you should donate them to a zoo. However, the fact of the matter is that there are more than enough breeding PTS in the Zoo sector to maintain a genetically diverse breeding population in captivity. Without specific genetic testing and local specific information, the animals in the private sector are of no use to the real captive breeding efforts, and only add to their decline in the wild. If you care so much, then go stop the habitat destruction. Just don't harp on flavia for not breeding her PET. At least she is not fooling herself into believing that her noble efforts are going to help save the species.

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/1.

Mr. Wilson,

It is definately you this time who is letting unfounded emotions run wild. If you read thoughly ALL the posts, you would see that both Flavia and Ice Queen were praised for their rescue efforts. I can't go into details for reasons of confidence but Flavia put herself at great personal risk doing investigative work for the SFCRC/Green Iguana society/USFAW (It was a joint venture).- (Yes, the imaginary SFCRC did form this combined effort.) For that, She will always have my respect and appreciation.

To deny the rapid deforestation of the Solomon's by the Mauving Brother's and other loggers, that the natives are eating them at an accelerated pace due to the economic conditions, and thinking Corucia is perfectly safe in the wild is TRUELY putting your head in the sand. Now more than ever, I was right in stating you would have gone for the Geocentric theory in Galileo's time.

Reverentur,
Brian
SFCRC