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Taking Stubborn Feeders For a Drive

pyromaniac Aug 17, 2011 06:55 PM

Okay, to day I took my six baby pyros for a round trip drive of 50 miles. This was to get them sexed by my friend John. (3 males and 3 females!) So anyway I have heard that the experience of riding in a vehicle can stimulate a feeding response. I have received many baby snakes from UPS, Fedex, and the like, and they almost always eat that very evening even if they were not big eaters before. So I put my babies back in their cages and have given each one a fresh live pinky, and we'll see. Four have eaten pinks on their own in the past but two I am still having to hand feed. I am hoping the two stubborn ones will get with the program.

Has anyone else ever experienced this odd way of stimulating appetite?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Replies (40)

trevid Aug 17, 2011 07:29 PM

That method works great for getting kids to fall asleep! Dave.

a153fish Aug 17, 2011 07:40 PM

>>That method works great for getting kids to fall asleep! Dave.

If I'm not in the drivers seat I do too, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

a153fish Aug 17, 2011 07:42 PM

I've hear stories about it but can't remember experiencing it? Now when you say hand feeding, what do you mean?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

pyromaniac Aug 17, 2011 09:27 PM

Hand feeding is holding the little snake in one hand just behind the head and getting it to open its mouth by rubbing the food on its jaw until it bites the food. Then put the snake down and see if it will keep and swallow the food. These two problem children will eat pieces of snake but wont eat pinkies.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

a153fish Aug 17, 2011 09:32 PM

I see! Have you tried scenting the pinks with the snake parts?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

pyromaniac Aug 17, 2011 09:38 PM

I have tried scenting the pinks with both lizard tea and snake parts, braining the pinks, dead pinks, live pinks, washed pinks, pinks in deli cups, pinks next to hides in cage, casting spells from Slytherin...They just wont eat pinks but at least they will eat the snake parts. Today I captured a very small fence lizard...that is on the menu next if they don't eat tonight.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

a153fish Aug 17, 2011 09:42 PM

Yeah, I know how you feel, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

thomas davis Aug 17, 2011 08:12 PM

works like a charm
lets go ridin in the car in the car, lets go ridin in the car!
good luck,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

rtdunham Aug 17, 2011 10:51 PM

here y'go. A classic...

click here for video and audio

mrkent Aug 17, 2011 10:57 PM

That was great!!!
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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) corn snakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded king snakes, blairs phase, 2008
0.0.10 Gray-banded king snakes, 2011
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, w/c 2000 and something

Colossians 3:17

denbar Aug 18, 2011 08:17 AM

That was really cool. Darn, my last non-feeder ate last night or I could have tried it!

--Dennis

DMong Aug 17, 2011 08:24 PM

Yes, it sounds really bizarre that it could get many stubborn hatchling's actually feeding, but it can't be argued that it does indeed work quite often. My best guess is that the vibration and bumps get the snake moving and crawling around some and at the same time gets their sensory organs stimutated and gets them out of "dormant mode" from being in the tiny container just sitting there for days on end...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

TonyT89 Aug 19, 2011 12:02 AM

LOL!

Coincidentally I tried that today but it didn't work on 2 absolutely stubborn a$$ hatchling Alterna. They were each placed in a deli cup and I drove for about 15 minutes. Just wondering Doug, but do you think it has to be a bumpy ride? Where I drove it wasn't very bumpy and plus I wonder if driving longer would have helped?! The gas did me in. I'm honestly about to give in with these guys...

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You can never have only one snake!

DMong Aug 19, 2011 12:38 AM

Don't give up on them. They still have plenty of weight and eventually they will eat something that you offer in tight secluded quarters if they aren't disturbed and feel hidden. They can go a very long time on their initial yolk reserves. If they were only hatched within a couple weeks they have barely even became hungry yet. Just keep offering different things every several days and they should eventually start to feed. Offer to the problem ones first so if they still refuse you can then give it to the others that will take them so the food doesn't go to waste.

good luck!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

pyromaniac Aug 19, 2011 09:50 AM

I agree, don't give up. This whole experience with baby montane snakes sraight out of the egg is a new one for me, and I am trying to grok the snakes as best I can. I am not in a big hurry to get them all feeding so as to get them on the market; if some go into winter having not fed and feed in the spring, good enough. They do that in the wild all the time. In the wild they may not get a lizard right away and will have to wait til spring to catch the first meal, so nature has designed them to be able to survive over winter and come out the following spring ready to catch their food.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

DMong Aug 19, 2011 10:29 AM

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

m77mcreedy Aug 19, 2011 10:33 AM

OH YEAH! You should never give up trying to do stuff so keep up the prety great work and such!!!! And your the B.E.S.T. To!!!?

a153fish Aug 19, 2011 10:05 AM

Here's a video!
Link

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

pyromaniac Aug 19, 2011 10:00 PM

I've seen this before. Do you think the little snake just finally got hungry and the guy is thinking his method is what did the trick when the snake actually just was going to eat anyway. LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

a153fish Aug 19, 2011 11:07 PM

No! That was me, and that little bugger gave me hell feeding it. It actually didn't even eat on the video, lol. but all his stuborn siblings did. Of course I picked the one that would make me look bad, lol. Still the technique is the important part. I used that technique/bandaid to get many Graybands to eat years ago also.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

pyromaniac Aug 20, 2011 08:13 AM

Actually I use a similar method with my hand feeding. Hold the snake by the neck, and with the other hand rub the pinky on its jaw until it gets annoyed enough to bite it. If it looks like it is going to keep the pinky I set it down and watch it eat. This works if he snake is already willing to eat but for some reason is just not getting the pink on its own, and needs a sort of boost.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

a153fish Aug 20, 2011 11:16 AM

Bob if they are eating that way, just keep doing it. Eventually the pinky will imprint on the snakes brain, and hunger will take over. Remember you have a short window before those snake where you live shut down, and stop eating for winter.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Bluerosy Aug 17, 2011 09:10 PM

n/p
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

rtdunham Aug 17, 2011 10:46 PM

>>Has anyone else ever experienced this odd way of stimulating appetite?

Yep. Dealing with hondos and pyros and the like, I didn't have many non-feeders. But i used the method routinely, because it usually worked.

(NOTE TO PARENTS: these drives are also successful at putting to sleep kids who are having a rough bedtime. Oh, the miles I've driven...)

pyromaniac Aug 18, 2011 08:50 AM

I checked this morning and it didn't work. I guess lizard is on the menu...sigh...

About getting kids to fall asleep; a couple of times when I was a young guy I fell asleep at the wheel and drove a few hundred miles asleep and woke up as I pulled up to a bridge toll booth in the Bay Area or a gas station in Tahoe City after driving from Oakland.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

denbar Aug 18, 2011 01:41 PM

The question is, did you feel like eating a mouse when you got there? HaHa.

--Dennis

pyromaniac Aug 18, 2011 05:41 PM

Actually I was so rattled that I had fallen asleep at the wheel and could have killed someone all I wanted was a cigarette and a drink and a good night's sleep. I have not offered the baby snakes any cigarettes or alcohol as they are too young.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

mrkent Aug 17, 2011 10:59 PM

I may have to give that a try if I still have stubborn feeders after I get home from NM. Thanks for the idea.
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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) corn snakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded king snakes, blairs phase, 2008
0.0.10 Gray-banded king snakes, 2011
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, w/c 2000 and something

Colossians 3:17

FR Aug 18, 2011 12:11 PM

Congrats, but what actually occurs? Why would that change things?

This is another of the bandaid fixes. Which is fine if you learn from it.

First off, they should feed well in their cages, that is, if the cage is to their liking. Temps/hydration/security.

If those areas are met, then feeding is what the snakes do.

And yes, these things I keep breeding up are important in this area.

Whats most important is, there is something lacking in the cage if all you have to do is take them for a ride and they feed. Thats common sense.

Also its important to note that a range of conditions for the snakes to pick and choose, also enables a range of individuals to meet their individual needs. Which do vary from individual to individual, as you are now seeing.l

I wondered from the snake world and landed full on in the world of varanids. I was very lucky and very successful. The methods of choice I developed breeding many species of snakes, worked far better with varanids. They use a huge range of temps.

Same lows to hotspots over 150F and yes, they use it ALOT. even up to hotspots of 200F, which works but is dangerous and expensive.

i produced many world firsts and established many species in captivity. Folks asked me how I produced so many species(over 18 species in a single year) I said, I keep them all the same. I treat them as individuals, not species. I give them a range of choices and let them work.

Varanids do not play the average thing at all. its either right or they are done. When its right, its way right and they multiclutch to the extreme, one individual produced 14 clutches in a year.

One female I hatched produced over 80 clutches in her life(13yrs) Which is astonishing. A healthy female averages 3 to five clutches a year.

Now consider the average lifespan for varanids in captivity is less then a year. 99% of all imported monitors are dead by the next years quotas. Its better for captive hatched but not much.

Back to kings, the varanid method was developed with kings.

In a nutshell, its very normal to feed, if one does not, thats not normal.

Why some feed in your conditions and others do not is your question. Its about this simple, each snake is an individual, some are smaller, weaker, etc etc. Yet if they can find the conditions they need, they thrive and catch up quickly.

Again, your task is to figure out how thats done. Its easy.

Remember, most folks support a average range of temps/conditions which will work for some or even most of the animals. A full range of temps/conditions, will work for the vast majority of individuals. And yes, maybe one out of five hundred that appears normal is not normal and will fail.

This is the good part, you do not have to provide a full range to the neonates are are doing well in your conditions. Just the troublesome individuals, Humidity choices are key, as well as a decent temps range and security is off upmost importance.

Its also my experience that hatching/nesting conditions and overall health of the female are what causes this variation in neonates.

So what your seeing is how you guage your conditions. Its a teaching tool for you to learn from. Keep learning. Thanks

DMong Aug 18, 2011 12:25 PM

"Congrats, but what actually occurs? Why would that change things?"

Good questions. Nobody really knows why, and I'm sure that you don't either. It could easily be just like I said in an earlier post, and it gets their dormant senses stimutated from them getting active and crawling around.

This is NOT meant to be argumentative, but knowbody has nearly all the answers of the universe, and I'm quite certain that you don't either.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

FR Aug 18, 2011 01:32 PM

You cannot help being arguementative, hahahahahahahahaha.

I do know what causes them to feed. Its right there in the reply.

They are not getting their needs met in those setups. Or they would feed.

It could be temps, or humidity, or security, which I mentioned. As Bluerosy once stated, If I was at his house, I could pick the exact reasons quickly, but I am not. So I do not know what hes actually providing.

Also, most keepers miss the point of usable temps. If you put a hot spot in the open for a timid individual, it will not use it, therefore rendering it useless. Or moisture related to dehydrated individuals. These two are very important. If the snake exposed to air movement, then its without question going to be in some state of chronic dehydration. AGain why you do not see baby kings crawling here and there on the surface. Even on humid days. They are always in dry humid places avoiding air movement.

Again, what the posters neonates are exposed to, I cannot say. So only generalizations can be used.

About you being arguementative. You seem to like to find or pick out the exceptions hahahahahaha cup half empty type of thing. Which is fine but all methods have lots of that.

But what we are taking about can be lessened to a point of its not a problem.

Also as husbandry is something applied, the keeper must maintain the conditions, and adjust as necessary. Thanks

DMong Aug 18, 2011 04:01 PM

..HAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!

You state you DON'T KNOW why they would feed after going for a ride, and then you state in the very same breath that it has to be something very wrong with the persons husbandry. It is a direct contradiction if you don't know why some hatchling feed because of this.

It is clearly YOU that wants to always portray to everyone here like you have all the answers to everything regarding snakes, when you very clearly do NOT! this is what is so bizarre about every single one of your posts..LOL!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Aug 18, 2011 01:36 PM

The poing FR makes it is a bandaid fix. Just like i fed hairless rats to pitophus to make them grow faster without regurging.

Sometimes the bandaid fixes can be fun. But wouldn't it be more fun to experiment with temp/humidy/feeding/nesting choices. To think outside the box and think what the snake is missing- WOW! ..that would be more fun!

I learned up, learning from the snakes by keeping them in a freezing cold room with turned over water dishes to create humidity. Now if we could learn up what thse snakes need. I bet in nature under a rock. they would eat.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

DMong Aug 18, 2011 04:13 PM

It could very well be that they sense the different outside air and even the different degrees of humidity pertaining to it as well, I don't know. It could be other factors too, my only point is nobody knows exactly why, and FR doesn't know either. That is all that I am stating. No human on earth can possibly have all these answers as to exactly why certain hatchlings don't feed initially and never will in my opinion. All anyone really knows is that rides can elicit them to sometimes.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Aug 18, 2011 04:21 PM

If hatchlings did start feeding after a ride, and they continued to feed from that day forward in the exact same environment they were kept in before, it would mean the conditions were just fine that they were kept in, but the snake itself was stimulated for whatever reason(s) to feed simply by the continuous vibration of the RIDE itself. This would be like what I was describing earlier that it could very likely be the vibrations and movement ITSELF that gets them to crawl around and gets their "on-the-move" predation senses working more.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Aug 18, 2011 06:33 PM

Or it could be most snakes are kept in a mrginal enviroment at best. Dehydration, even temps (insted of thermregulating), inprper substratem etc..

So just because a snake CAN eat in 78F and live with newspaper and a water bowl in a plastic box, does not mean that all snakes can. It is also far from optimal. And that is what FR is trying to make peopl do, is think. You from anyone els ehere should see that by now. but for some reason you keep trying to break up the discussions.

maybe the fact that some feed and digest in the worst conditions keeps them going.That is. like a person on life support practically.. That is why i see people with kings that die early, shut off food, get sick etc.

They (the kingsnakes) are tough snakes compared to other species of snakes. They can survice in a more bullet proof enviroment. Not so with other sopecies.

that is why kings, milsk corn are so popular. they are easy to keep in marginal conditions.

So, SO..maaaybe, the vibrations stimuated someting that makes them eat and survice under poor conditions. just enough to digest and grow. That is why some eat from the beginning and some don't. Once they start eating. We think that we are successful. Whts next for the kings, SHOCK treatment? twirl them above our heads to get them to eat??? LOL!

I will use a recent example. I sold amkingsnake to someone who has other snakes, Though he has been keeping snakes he knows very little of husbandry for snakes. he is more like a pert keeper. Afte rhe got the snakes i sent him he said he never saw a kingsnakes with afeeding response like mine. All of my kings have a great feeding response. But i guess if you keep the kings at one temperature and feed them once per week. they tend to slow down from what is natural. They may even seem lethgic and "tame" to the poing of hardly having a feeding response. they just sit there and survive. Kinda like being locked in a room with soup and bread for 20 years. Would survive? maybe some people can. others would crack and not survive,

okay i know comparing people to snakes is bad.Buy for you Doug i have to use people examples because you clearly don't understand snakes yet. ..just saying. When certain snakes don't eat and others in the same clucth do. Why assume they are mental and need some unatural stimili to feed (or get going on feeding) the snakes are telling us something is inadequate. WHY BLAME THE SNAKES?

Work with some harder to keep species and you will know what i am talking about.Pick a species no one has worked with yet and so that you cannot copy what they found out! Kings, corns- milksnakes ect are pretty tough. Other species not so. Otherise we would all be keeping them as well.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

pyromaniac Aug 18, 2011 05:55 PM

I have a very strong suspicion that the babies eat when they get hungry, which is when they have fully utilized their yolk reserves. Today I hand fed each baby a lizard scented pinky and the smallest baby tore into that pinky in a most ravenous frenzy. I was very happy as this was the littlest baby, although he had eaten a pink on his own a couple of weeks ago. Hand feeding just entails getting the snake to bite the pinky. Then I carefully sit the snake down and leave it to the business of eating. As time goes on the feeding response is improving with all of them, so like I said, once the yolk is gone they want to feed. Then whatever exotic trick one may have been deploying at that time seems like the trick that worked. But the snakes were just finally ready to eat.

The habitats they have are the same set ups I have used with my other pyros as babies and they all ate.

So what happens with monitor lizards at 200 degrees Fahrenheit; do they really explode? LOL!
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

FR Aug 19, 2011 10:09 AM

Nope, they use it just fine, no problems, but the same result can be had at 150F. And its safer.

about your pyros, This is the thing, you post your thoughts(worries) and we I have no way of knowing if your worries are real. So I respond as it they are.

The truth is, hatchings can not feed for a month or so and thats normal. Its not normal if they lose weight and become skinny. That is the point you worry.

if you read these forums, your problem is not only about you, or maybe you. Many people have problems getting neonates of some species to feed properly. Mostly other type kings like the mexicana complex and small milksnakes.

AS well as pyros and zonatas. The main reason is dehydration. These species can be small and have a huge surface to mass ratio, so they dehydrate quickly in air.

In nature, these kings are IN moist ground or in crevices in moist ground. They rarely ever expose themselves to open air.

If they do, its only for minutes at a time. Even neonate rattlesnakes of the smaller species do not expose their selves to open air for any length of time.

Yet most keep them in boxes that are mostly air. This is the main problem. AS neonates they are only a little more tolerant of air, then say an earthworm. get it. Leave it out and it dries out. Same for baby kings, only much slower, but the same.

Little hides and other stuff on the bottom of the cage helps, but is not the entire answer. AS you have seen, it works for some individuals, but not all.

What I am trying to get across to you is, if you address those problems, its good for the vast majority of neonates of many species. The understanding that these neonates live IN the ground, not on it. And require a stable humidity and temp choices.

If that was done, there would be no need for tricks and dead neonates.

A thought I talked about many years ago with adult snakes, you know, when people had to trick adults to get to feed, that thought is, are they that picky in nature, or do they feed on, anything that is considered prey? In my experience, they are such good feeders in nature, they grab it first and decide later if its prey or not.

Not this, take it for a ride, dip the prey is hummingbird yolk or whatever.

The reality is, snakes in nature have a much wider range of prey, and that includes insects for many of these species.

FR Aug 19, 2011 10:10 AM

I wish we could dedit these posts, I meant to say, hatchlings do not have to feed for a month or so.

pyromaniac Aug 19, 2011 09:42 PM

All my snakes, both babies and older, get moist sphagnum moss hides made out of cottage cheese containers, Glad containers, etc, which they really like. I would no more put a snake in a cage without a moist sphagnum moss hide than I would put it in without a water bowl. They get one over the UTH and one in a cool spot, their choice.

-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

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