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Is the Whiteside Brooks a sub species of the Brooks King or just a color morph?

>>Is the Whiteside Brooks a sub species of the Brooks King or just a color morph?

There is much debate over the origins of the WS, but a quick answer is that it is a color mutation, of the Florida King. It is a recessive trait which is passed down in the same manner as the Amel gene.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Additionally, it would accurately be considered a "pattern" mutation as well as a mutation of the color, with the one gene doing both at once. You are also right about the somewhat questionable origin. Only the originator knows how this actually went down. Some say it originated with the white-sided Black Rat(licorice), and others think the white-wall speckled king came into play.

Another forum member (Upscale) had this very detailed history of it's origin a good while back that I have saved. I have all sorts of different morph history's saved over the years. It's hard to believe he would have this many extremely precise details about it if it were not so, so I will just post it and leave it up to the reader as to what they think to draw their own conclusion. It is a very interesting read I must say..

WHITE-SIDED floridana HISTORY 12/8/09

posted by ~ Norm “Upscale”

The whitesided was originated from a single wild caught specimen found on September 17th, 1989. It was found under a fallen road sign in Deem City by Rubio Castro who was serving time and working along US Highway 27 picking up junk when Hurricane Hugo was two hundred miles from Florida and they were picking up loose debris in case it came towards Broward County. The snake was taken to the road crew supervisor, Matt Schenker because he liked snakes and was always checking the roadside while the crew were working. He didn’t know what he had, and brought it to a guy named Leo Dunbar who kept it for a month before selling it to the guy who started the line. The original was a male, and was bred to two female Brooks. One of those daughters was bred back to the father and the first whitesided and known hets were produced. The offspring were divided into two groups and sold to two different parties, unknown to each other that the other group existed. One guy was told they were from a wild caught het pair, and the other was told they were created from the witesided black rat, both lies, by the way. In addition, the original male and a single female were held back, also, without the investor’s knowledge. The original male died before breeding to the female, and the owner bred her to a Florida king male from the cane fields. That started a line that is not pure Brooks, but has been crossed with the other line and is wide spread as a part of the current whitesided line. They started out pure locality from south Florida until that pairing. Supposedly the line from the out crossed cane field crossing actually became a vigorous and bigger line. This breeder acquired a pair from one of the first investors as part of an agreement, and was able to jump start the project because the investor was not aware of the holdbacks. Within just a few years there were about six different people producing these snakes, and they just expanded like crazy and it seemed like all of a sudden everybody had them. Believe it or not, I admit it’s quite a story...
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

He didn’t know what he had, and brought it to a guy named Leo Dunbar who kept it for a month before selling it to the guy who started the line. The original was a male, and was bred to two female Brooks

This is where the story faulters. As you know I was indirectly involved with this line.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

>>This is where the story faulters. As you know I was indirectly involved with this line.

Rainer, could you be just a little, little more specific? It sounds like you know more about the story. But your comment tells me nothing. I'd love to hear more.

It is a really long story and I typed it here before a couple of times.

Just take my word for it.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

cool....thats great...so just provide a link so some of us can read it.

thanks
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

If you really think about it.

Just the fact i said it, makes it true.
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www.Bluerosy.com

These animals live in nature, without you. They know when to eat, when not to eat, how much to eat, etc. Why do you think they cannot do that in captivity? They do know, you are suppose to support what THEY DO, not hold back food because you keep them at temps they would not pick.
Frank Retes

Sounding a whole lot like Retes there, Ranier!!!! Notsaying it's not true but that's what gets him dumped on frequently!!!!

Pat

Pat,
I was indirectly involved with the making of the Florida x WS Blackrats.

Now what I meant by "if you think about it", was that since I make my living off of Florida king morphs. Why would I make that up if it was to dirty the gene pool?

Also it is a long story. I have no idea where the links are. I am not that interested in broadcasting the history anyway.

So either take it or leave it. I don't care.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I know--just poking a little fun!!!! Sorry if it came across as serious!!! You know how long FR and I have been friends!!!
How's the hatching this season going?????

Pat

It's pretty easy! But you last staement sounds like you did cross the Black Rat with Florida King? So either way you know, something about the animals you sell, and are keeping it obscure. If your not gonna back it up then...
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

yes sir! Whatever you say SIR!
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www.Bluerosy.com

So....they have obsoleta in them?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>So....they have obsoleta in them?
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>>Gerard

If they do, Rainer put it there.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

This is very interesting - reminds me of watching "in search of bigfoot". Everytime you almost get an answer, it goes to commercial or the show ends with the classic "it will have to remain a mystery".

How could a WS black rat be in the mix ... that doesn't seem possible. If someone could provide some additional explanation, I would be grateful - I did not realize that this could be so complicated. thanks.

I would like a definative answer too! But the possibility is real! It is even more possible that a WS Speckled King was used, but it's all speculation. Hybrids are mad all the time. that is why so many purists insist on tracing animals back to the original stock. A WS Black rat coold have been bred to a Brooks resulting in hybrids all of which would carry the WS gene. Then you simply selectively breed for the ones that look most like florida kings untill you have bred the Rat influence completely out of it, yet retaining the WS gene. I really hope this was not the case though!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

It seems like the Speckled Kings would have been the best choice for him to use. They would have just made animals that already looked close. That does suck if that's the case.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Nope, they were ws blackrats.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

Damn, that's crazy! So all the WS brooks are hybrids?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Just another reason why taking the high ground against hybrids is a difficult position to take. Unless you are dealing with wild caught critters that you know the origin of, it's dicey to make bold assertions of it not being a hybrid. I used to be a real Nazi about keeping/breeding hybrids. Not so much anymore. Life is too short to get my panties in a wad about it. Several types of snakes that I have kept in the past and probably will in the future are suspect or outright hybrids. WS Brooksi, Albino Brooksi, Creamsicle Corns, Ultra/Ultramel Corns, Honduran Milks to name a few. And as long as hybrid vs Intergrade is a hot topic and the possibility of wild hybrids exists, again life's too short. Just my $0.02!!!!!!

Pat

Pat,
You alrady know this but. A lot of the old timers did breed hybrids back then and they passed them off as pure. nobdooy questioned them as it "was not an issue"...also because this was when people just started to learn the old receipe book for breeding. Bsiclly this hybrid subject was to new to even be considered in the realm of possibilty in most herpers minds.

And today those snakes are in the hands of purists who are the current "hybrid nazi's" of today.. it funny how life can nip you in the rear.lol , .

Just sayin, a lot of the origins of recessive traits came from hydridzing.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

Don't want to beat a dead horse but I just want to say a couple things more. In 1981 there was a program given at the San Diego Zoo about snakes where two of the speakers showed outstanding slides of snakes that were breeding for them and I thought at the time how cool they were. Half the snakes were hybrid milks and other rare kings. The two guys were named Bob Applegate and Frank Retes!!!! I guess the last thing I would say is that from this point forward I'm not going to go off the deep end every time a hybrid issue is brought up. So I apologize to Rainer, FR, Tom Davis, et al, for the past. And to those who I respect that feel the opposite and are trying their level best to stand for some degree of purity and integrity, I apologize for not standing with you, especially Jorge and Doug, two individuals I've come to know and respect. And finally, to those whom have preached purity in the past, vehemently, yet even now have questionable critters on their Websites and price lists I just say identify the questionable types. Don' just shrug your shoulders and go on. I value your friendship and expertise. Boy, that's about $0.50 worth!!!! Sermon's over.
Pat

Pat you certainly don't need to apologize to me. I know I have some hybrids in my collection with the Thayeri/Ruthies. However that was my choice! my big beef is when I buy something that is not represented truthfully. Maybe I'll buy , or maybe not, but that should be my choice. I love the look of Gold Dust Corns, and I may someday get some, but if I do I'll keep them unto themselves. I got rid of my Sina/Nelson's and got a screaming pair of Cosalas Sinaloans, and I may someday sell off the Thayeri mix, but I really like them, but I still represent them for what they are. Good to see you posting again Brother!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

It used to be such a big deal to me that I wouldn't even buy non-hybrids from individuals that had hybrids in their collections. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that I have a Masters Degree!!!! I am so stupid at times. I guess what is most important to me now is to not try to please anybody by what I keep. If I choose to keep White Sided Brooks (one of my favorites) I'm going to keep them. And I'll breed them if I want. And IF I get rid of some I'll tell folks what they are!!!!I like what Soderburg has done on his re-done Web site in descriptions of ultra, ultramel derivitives in Corns that he sells. As we find the hobby shrinking in this poor economy and the Feds after our bones, getting into pissing matches makes no sense. And Jorge no matter what you do, I still think you have one of the most awesome websites out there.

Pat

Yeah I have some WS brooks too! Just think of them as "Hobby Kings!" Thanks for the nice word on my site. I need to update it soon with some baby pics.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Ya but look at them. You would never know unless i told you.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

This is what i think gerard.

Some of the these snakes like the whitesided trait in Floridana has been bred back so many time that for all intense purposes, THEY ARE A FLROIDA KING. I mean that is what happene in the wild with hybrids. They just get absorbed back into the population. Don't think for a minute that a Florida king never bred to a ratsnake in florida. AND YOU WOULN'T BE ABLE TO TELL THEN EITHER.

I wish i neveR brought it up. Because people hear the word hybrid and just assume ..OH UNPURE! NASTY! COBRA FOOD !etc.
Which is not the case.

Lets talk about something else like nesting or bonding,, KKK!? LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

Actually, I have no interest in arguing about hybrids. None of my snakes are hybrids so I don't have to worry. I think the people that are smart enough to know what's right can find what they want.

I'm gad you brought it up and told the truth. What else is not pure out there?
I think you guys have covered the bondage theories enough as well. What else do you have to add to that one?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I always told the truth about the snakes. I was also not the one breed the WSmorph into the Floridana. I just found out that the persons who did (one passed away) and the other left the hobby (Tim Ricks)who lied to me and others. I prsonally had nothing to do with making the hybrids. I was just involved in a business transacation early on that the supposed founding stock which produced a ws brooks. Which ended up, was NOT the actual animals that produced the ws brooks. So that is is not where they cme from at all. Thats what got me into researching it. Then after speaking to serval people involved I was able to trace the history of the animals as well as George miskimmon who originated the ws blackrats. Sevral people were indirectly involed like I was. But had nothing to do with the breeding or coverup and falsly claiming these were the real deal.

It was all just detective work on my end.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes