Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Figured I'd post a few pics from the last three clutches to hatch.
100% hatch on these and ended up with more babies than I figured on. LOL.
5 Pueblans (I know not a rat but pretty right out of the egg)
12 corns, and 18 yellow rats

As I said in an earlier post I use shoe boxes from K-Mart (KIS brand). Babies are good at escaping but these boxes hold them.
They stay together till they start feeding then they get their own boxes and record post-its.
I also included a shot of the only mandarin yearling to hatch from last years ill fated clutch.
He's a frustrating little guy. To this date he has not fed on his own. I have to stick the pink in his mouth and only then will he eat. Otherwise he's doing great.
Mike

Congrats on all of the babies, Mike!

Nice Mandarin too - I'd love to keep some, but I know that they need more of a brumation than I can provide. Although - I may brumate some snakes in my buddy, John's mountain king brumation room this year.

I have a yearling female rhino rat (from my friend Rob), which has been a PITA similar to your Mandarin - while her male sibling has never refused a meal. The female would take pinks via tease feeding at first, then took a few on her own - then she stopped eating! I had to force feed her for a long time to keep her alive. Recently, I have gotten her to feed via teasing again (see my above post to Cochran), and she is now taking fuzzies and growing. Sort of a pain, but I kind of like the fact that they are not "easy" snakes - at least starting out. Once they are eating though, they are bullet proof...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby, Mandarins arn't hard at all. They keep with the same temps that American rats thrive with. I just keep them at or near floor level with room temps around 78 degrees. They don't get any heat tape. In the winter their tubs are set on the floor with room temps set at around 72. Thats all it takes.
Mike.

Thanks for the info, Mike. I may get some one of these days - or a local friend might get some before me, and I'll visit them...

Not arguing with you, but I have read / heard different about their brumation requirements from others, and in literature - but I know different methods work for different folks and in different situations. What part of the country are you located in (if I am not imposing)? My ambient room temps may be different from floor temps in any given season - either hotter or cooler. Hotter than hell here (south Texas) from about end of May - mid October, and sporadically cool / warm for the rest of the year, with one or two light freezes during the winter usually...

I used to keep Elaphe dione (gave them all to my friend, Rob, this year), which never produced for me until I started brumating them in a refrigerator at mid 40's - mid 50's F for 3 months or so. They and my Chinese beauties (which I also used to refrigerate) did not produce for me for the first time in years this year, mainly due to not being refrigerated, I think. All other conditions, husbandry, feeding were the same - just that they all got cooled in my snake room at unheated south Texas room temps which fluctuate from the 70's - the high 50's, but most of the time it is in the mid 60's. I also use a window unit a/c to keep temps as low as possible during our frequent winter warm spells. This works great for bairdi, corns, emoryi, and Senticolis - but it doesn't seem to be enough for dione - and I have always thought of Mandarins as pretty typical temperate zone Asians with a need for a real brumation. I am still experimenting with the Chinese beauties and bimaculata - hoping they will produce good eggs with a milder brumation than what I used to give them...

There are all kinds of exceptions to everything though. I had always heard / read that situla need a long, cold brumation also - so I always cooled mine in the fridge but still never got any eggs from them. Then, I heard that some folks breed them easily after a corn snake type of brumation. This difference may be due to the locality that the snake originates from also, with those from northern parts of the range (Croatia, in this case) being somewhat more difficult than southern (Greek locality) specimens. My friend, John, has been keeping them for the last couple years - brumated them in his mountain king brumation room this winter and finally got two good eggs from them. I could probably get him to cool a few pairs of snakes for me, if I wanted.

Then there is the possibility of just having the perfect conditions for whatever species you are keeping, or maybe just being lucky and having perfect animals. Green rats have a rep for being a LOT of trouble in captivity, but my LTC Santa Ritas locality adults have been some of the easiest snakes I have ever kept and bred, aside from them only wanting live mice that is. Maybe I have lucked out somehow with them or they really like the conditions in my snake room, or I am doing all the right things for them. I do treat them a little different from my other snakes - mostly following Gerold Merker's (aka T. Cranston) old article on them, with a few slight differences. Whatever is going right for them I got two good clutches from the female last year and one (so far) this year...

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Hi Toby, I've read those write ups too. As I see it you can over think and over complicate anything.
They are different but not all that.
One example is bedding. I've read where they and bamboo rats must have mulch soil like bedding but I use aspen. I lay a folded sheet of news paper flat on the shavings and the snakes hollow out a hide under it, calm down, and feed well.
I read and was told you can't do this with bamboos, well I am and they are eating like pigs.
There are alot of experts out there and you have to take what you find with a grain of salt.
I'm not saying I'm an expert either, I can just say what is working for me.

Texas is a far cry from Jersey in temps and I'm sure heat is more of an issue. My reasoning for a basement snake room as the coolest place in the house should be even truer down your way.
For me, placing the tubs on the concrete floor in the winter months puts them at the high 50s low 60s when the room temp is set at about 72. They will stay there most of the winter about 4 months. I will feed them a very small mouse every couple of weeks during this time. This wouldn't be good for American rats but Mandys get along fine feeding and digesting at much lower temps. You can't push it though. Thats why I go with much smaller meals. Mandys eat smaller meals than American rats for a comparatively sized animal at any time. You can't power feed Mandys. This will get them to breed in the spring early summer.
I've written alot here but it realy isn't that complicated. All the hype scares people off. I think you could do ok with them.
Mike.

Thanks for all that, Mike!

I agree that husbandry can be (or become) over complicated - I have been guilty of that myself, at times. I have used the newspaper laid on top of aspen for many snakes too - works for some that most folks probably would not susupect - Chinese beauties being one, and getula of all kinds like it. It works as a moist hide too, as you can mist the newspaper - and it will dry throughout the day, and will not become moldy like sphagnum eventually will. I also find the sheet of newspaper on top of aspen a convenient platform for feeding snakes on so they don't ingest aspen along with the prey item. I agree with taking "experts'" advice with a grain of salt - and the same with most literature in print.

If I had a basement, I would surely use it as a brumation room - but we only have one floor, which is a little above ground. This is not even "typical" Texas climate, as we live in southern coastal subtropical Texas - "Hurricane Alley". I only have about 1.5 - 2 months (sporadically) of real brumation temps here, which is why I use a small window unit air conditioner to try to keep temps in the mid 60's for at least 2.5 - 3 months. This is extremely expensive electric bill wise, and I try to use the a/c sparingly. When outside temps rise into the 70's or even 80's (yep, it happens) during the middle of winter here, it also makes the floor warmer, so it doesn't make much difference where vertically I have the snakes in the room.

As a note, the year before last, when I first started brumating my green rats for breeding - I warmed them and fed them 3 times during the winter, and they still mated and produced good eggs - 2 clutches ASMOF. They were cooled sporadically, and had a warm spot in their tubs throughout brumation - so this is both using Cranston's methods plus playing it by ear, so to speak - doing what I thought was right for the snakes.

The idea of keeping Mandarins doesn't really scare me, as I've kept even colder winter snakes (dione) than them, and successfully bred them too. I am really just getting sort of tired of having to cool stuff to such extremes, and leaning more toward keeping more tropical / subtropical snakes like the rhinos, green rats, etc. - which I can get by with cooling in an unheated room. My buddy, John is probably more interested in Mandarins than I am, and he has a super brumation chamber he uses for his montane kingsnakes - so I might just wait for him to get some and visit his to see how I like them...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby, your right, I get the picture. Guess we all have to work with what we've got. I can see what the AC would do to your electric bill, I see mine raise a bit with more use of the electric radiators but I'll bet your AC makes that expense look like something I shouldn't complain about.
I recently gave in to temptation and picked up a juvenile Aru island green tree python. While everything else is thriving now with ambient room temps (78-80) in the August warmth, I've got its enclosure heated into the low 90s. (its not a rat snake but with neon green, snow flakes spattered down the spine and light blue mixed in here and there, I couldn't resist )
If in your region I'd probably lean towards the more tropical species just to keep things easier.
I have to keep reminding myself to keep things simple.
Too much or too complicated makes it a job instead of a hobby and creates stress trying to maintain things properly. Unfortunately though we'd like to think so, we can't include everything we'd like to in our collections.
Sorry I know its not a rat snake but I had to include a couple of shots of my new baby. She's just going to get prettier as she grows.
Mike.

Mike, no need to appologize to me for posting pics of that beauty! I love the GTP's and ETB's - if they weren't outlawed in my town (no boids / pythonids by city ordinance), I would have some too. I love green / blue, arboreal snakes - which is what mainly draws me to the green rats, rhinos, beauties, prasina and frenata (some day on the last two species).

Yep, we run the central air conditioning all summer ( which BTW I keep set at about 76 degrees F in 100 degree heat), and central heat sporadically through winter - so imagine central heat and a window unit a/c running at the same time in winter - my bank account is screaming! LOL

Yeah, having to brumate lots of temperate zone Asians in a tropical zone is stressful (to me, at least) - and complicated. I am learning to look for the snakes that do well in climates similar to mine! LOL
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Wow all pythons and boas? Even a deadly kenyan sand boa? LOL
Shame, ball pythons too I guess. Mindless.
I'll bet its ok to keep venomous though huh(?)
I don't expect my GTP to get much longer than 6'. I believe thats about max. She's a sweetheart too.
You'd probably like Kunisar Japanese rats. I have a pair that are as gentle as corn snakes and take about the same care. Nothing special for them. They have a turquoise head and mottled forest green body. The scales are a little rased too having more texture to them than your average rat snake. I had a clutch laid this year but the cooler they were in went haywire and I lost them. damn. I plan on breaking down and getting a comercial incubator for next season. The fish tank heater setup was good for past years but proved unreliable this year.
I'll try to post a pic or two of my other "green" snakes.
Mike.

Yup - not even a tiny little rubber boa! 'Cause it's a man-eating "BOA"!!!

However, colubrids are okay, up to at least six feet - so I have to draw the line at Chinese beauties - no big Taiwans (might eat a baby)... Baby what(?) you tell me....

Yeah, I've always liked the looks of climacs - but I "know" they need some cooling. They are interesting to me, though - because they are one of the species still considered " Elaphe" - like my bimaculata...

I have successfully incubated eggs... in cabinets, in modified aquariums, in snake racks, Hovabators, and now in an Exo Terra incubator - on sphagnum, vermiculite, perlite, Hatch-Rite, zero medium (fluorescent light diffuser) and over water, in an aquarium....
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

In the third picture, are those Black Rats? Are they from a known locality?