Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is there a way of feeding a monitor a healthy diet that is meant to slow growth and lead to an adult on the small size? I'm not talking about malnutrition or hunger. I want to tame a baby black throat, not yet bought, to be my reptilian puppy. I get varying descriptions of how long he'd get, from 3-4 feet up to over 5 and maybe even 6. I realize there is variability and wouldn't diet be a factor? I can't tame a starving pet nor would I allow that, but I really need my pet to stay at most at 3 1/2 feet, not for me, but for other family members. I don't want to have to trade him in after a few years.

A last resort is settling for a Savannah, or maybe you have a suggestion? I love the way the black throats look.

I meant black roughneck, not black throat.

If you aren't ready to take on the potential of the monitor then don't. There really is no changing the monitor, you just have to best meet and exceed his requirements. There's not even a guaranteed possibility that you'll tame him, usually monitor owners just end up scaring the reptile so much that they just give up on their lives. If you're worried about size, get an ackie monitor. They're a lot more expensive, but only get about two feet, they are usually captive BRED instead of captive BORN, which supposedly makes a difference in temperament, and do well in groups up to trios. There is no formulated diet to "stunt" the growth of a monitor. I would suggest you do a lot of studying and research, build a cage that would be suitable for the amount of Ackie's that you want to house, THEN buy a captive bred baby Ackie. You might even want to establish colonies of feeders if you're on a tight budget.

I've had a few different monitors in the past. My problem is the veto power of my spouse. I was trying to placate her. I can get a baby Savannah for $20 at the local reptile show next week. I already have everything else. They've proven acceptable.

Well, just keep in mind the Savannah monitors are insectivores. At least that's what the studies of them in the wild show. So you might want to get a colony of roaches, snails, superworms, and/or crickets going. You'll also want to have a cage built that will hold heat and humidity better than the usual retail store combination of aquarium and one giant heat bulb. Those two things both will simply dry up the enclosure and likely lead to a dead monitor... try instead just building a simply 4x2x2 wooden enclosure, with sliding glass doors. You can build one for just over a hundred bucks.

Once big enough, I've fed 3 Savannahs and a Tegu mice and live bait fish (minnows when small, shiners when large) along with earthworms, silkworms and hornworms. That also goes for my many snapping turtles. They've always prospered. I avoid food that isn't "whole" or that is formulated for mammals. I do have calcium and vitamin/mineral powders to add to unbalanced foods when I'm out of the live stuff. I also use Mega-Ray UVB lamps.

I'd love a more expensive monitor, but times are tough.
I also overindulge my vegetarian and omnivore herps. I live in South Florida and the weather is mild most of the year.

What animals eat in the wild isn't necessarily their ideal food. It's what they can find. They usually choose "better" food when offered it. Humans love to upgrade too.

Yes, but the thing is, they have access to those foods, mice, and scavangable foods, but they choose to hunt the invertebrates instead. I'd say the lizard knows what's best, and I wouldn't try to assume I have a better diet for it than what it's lived off of in the wild.

I find it funny when people make assumptions.If monitors in the wild were presented with another choice to feed on,there is a chance they might eat it.You assume a particular based diet,why is that? when monitors can digest almost anything.I'm just assuming but it makes sense that they will eat what's most readily available-they are not going to skip 10 meals to get one that probably requires more exertion.

With Sav's the problem is husbandry,if they aren't kept properly it doesn't matter what you feed them-you will not see much longterm success either way;mice diet or insectivore diet.So you can have a thousand stomache content conversations,but in the context of captivity where's the proof.

It simply is this, yes, there are things that are bad for your monitors, just like anything. For some reason, in the wild they are found with a particular diet and CHOOSE not to be scavengers. You should not feed your monitors wet dog food, you should not feed your monitors chocolate, and you should keep rodents down to a treat. I've yet to read of anyone raising a monitor solely off a rodents based diet where the monitor survived to it's full potential of fifteen to twenty years, and any full grown monitor I've seen with a rodent diet is obese, and unresponsive, and the complete opposite of what a healthy, curious, inquisitive monitor should act like. http://savannahmonitor.org/feeding/rodents/

"I've yet to read of anyone raising a monitor solely off a rodents based diet where the monitor survived to it's full potential of fifteen to twenty years". This first monitor I ever owned was a nile and 99.9% of what it ate during it's 15 year lifespan was rodents. Have fed to same to waters most of my life and had and still have similar lifespans. I also have a savannah that someone gave me several years ago it is basically a garbage disposal for unwanted mice from my snakes and any large roaches that escape my house tokays (I live in Fla.) that I maanage to catch and throw in his tank and that is more for my amusement than for his nutrition, although more power to the nutrition end of it. He's still going strong.

While I would advise against it, other monitors like niles and waters are an entirely different subject than savannahs, this topic originated from an argument about savannah monitors, and they should not be fed a diet based off of rodents

I have seen several discussions about the topic of savs and rodents recently. They all end up with everyone pointing to there favorite web page that backs up what they believe. I personally have had a savannah for several years that I have feed mostly rodents. He seems perfectly healthy, he is active and not obese. Does this mean I can say a rodent based diet is best? Hell no. Basically I am trying to say this argument goes nowhere unless people with TONS of personal experience trying both diets join in.

Back on the original topic. Do not buy a monitor that you cannot keep if it reaches its full potential. If you buy a monitor you cannot plan on having it mold to the way you want it. You can hope for the for what you want, but plan for what you might get.

So I just got around to the discussion below this one and it seems to prove my point. FR, right or wrong, is one of the few people on here who can actually talk from his experience. Everyone else is just pointing at stuff other people have said. Im not saying its not an important discussion, but it seems to get nowhere.

If you re read you will notice that I do mention that I currently have one savannah that I inherited. I have had him for several years now, long enough that I cannot recall how long I've actually had him. I have fed him basically the same way I feed the rest of my monitors. Sometimes they get rats sometimes they get mice, sometimes they get soft furred rats, sometimes they get eggs, sometimes they get bugs. It really depends on what is most readily available, or what has not been eaten by some of my wife's finicky (sometimes) boids.
As Frank and Murindinni (sorry if I have misspelled it.) have both mentioned temps humidity and enclosure specifics are much more important than splitting hairs about the diet. With all due respect to Daniel Bennett's studies monitors are opportunistic predators/scavengers that will eat what they can when they can get it. If it happens to be bugs then it's bugs, if it happens to be a nest of rodents or eggs that they can get that's what they eat. I mentioned on here before with respect to Daniel Bennett's study, that while it's results are valuable they represent one population of savannahs during a small widow of time. I once watched a coyote sit under a light in my neighbors backyard and eat bugs for hours on end, I watched it do this for several months, occasionally I would observe the same coyote venture into another neighbors garage and eat dog food. I cannot go out and say based on that limited observation that coyotes eat only bugs and dog food, But to do so would be the same as saying savannahs only eat bugs (most of which were millipedes you can't even legally buy in fl. btw.... fyi my savannah ignores the native millipedes.)

I'm not accusing anyone here of being a hypocrite, so calm down.
I'm referring to a general tendency of people to eat whatever tastes good, get fat, etc, while forcing their dog, reptile, etc, to eat the animal equivalent of a health food diet. I know my dog hates that. I "raise" reptiles as pets, not for breeding. They give me pleasure. I try to keep them healthy, but, in my opinion, I'm giving them something more important: I'm giving them the safety of not being preyed on by animals and people who eat them in their native lands. What percentage of each generation actually lives to adulthood? Just not being in the wild, experiencing less fear, being acclimated to their human owner so as not to fear him either, those are all good things that I don't hear mentioned. Any way I treat them is better than living wild, even though they can't understand that. Savannahs can live 20 years? That's in captivity with ideal nutrition. What about in the wild? 5 years?

it's all about packaging in reference to Savannahmonitor.org.When i got back into monitors i gave this site a look see.He/she/ one person pointed that some have a profit motive to endorse rodents,though i found it a reasonable point to bring out-i found it also gave me the impression of something more personal.But really isn't this just a prettier caresheet-there doesn't appear to be much sharing of knowledge or ideas and where are the photos to promote it's new approach?

I find it funny that most people have never actually read Daniel Bennetts study.Yet everyone want to criticize or swear by it.I dont have a copie of it but I do have a conversation by him on another site.

"In very brief, the reasons Varanus exanthematicus doesn't seem to be a carrion eater are 1) baited traps set by Cisse in Senegal, me in Ghana and apparently by hunters of niloticus anywhere never catch exanthematicus 2) they have never been recorded eating carrion 3) the diet of animals in Senegal, Ghana and Sudan = arthropods and snails with a very few amphibians and lizard eggs. The juveniles feed mainly on orthopterans, the adults eat a lot of Iulus millipedes. It's a much more specialised diet than any of the other African monitors, which tend to eat anything and everything (i.e. opportunistic). I think if they preyed on mammals (dead or alive) with any regularity something would have turned up in the dietary studies (I found mouse fur once in hundreds of samples from Ghana). It's the only African monitor that couldn't be described as an opportunistic carnivore, and likening them to vultures suggests he hasn't looked at the data, doesn't believe it, or is still getting them confused with albigularis type monitors"

"They must come across rodents lizards and snakes all the time. They aren't present in gut contents, feces or stomach flushings, which suggests that they don't eat them much."

"As Matt says, it's possible that they don't congregate round carrion because they are small and at risk of predation, but even very small (100g) niloticus are attracted to bait, and exanthematicus of any size simply don't come."

And here is the link

http://www.varanus.nl/forum1/viewtopic.php?id=2849

I don't think you should feed Savannas a rodent based diet.
Moe I think it was you who said you don't think they would pass up a rodent if available.If you read it they where not able to bait them also they the study was taken place where both Savanna and Niles cure.And in the Niles there where rodents amphibians,and other reptiles.But with the savanna almost none.

Now I have seen Savannas live to 6 years plus fed on a diet of nothing but hot dogs,so to every one who claims to have healthy Savannas with a rodent diet.Lets see some eggs.You wont find them,because the only well documented captive breeding was by Ravi and I believe he fed a insect based diet.

Another thing I find funny is most of the people who are pro rodent diet,don't even keep Savannas.I don't keep Savannas either.But I do keep Dumeriliis.Another specialized eater.And I can tell you from experince when fed mostly rodents they become very lazy,dull.and just don't seem to be themselves.And its not that I dont keep them hot enough,because I keep my animals hotter than most other people do.

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis
2.0.3 Varanus jobiesis
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle
0.1 Varanus Salvidorii
0.0.2 Varanus Salvator

A balanced discussion is a good thing,thanks Manchild.It's nice to see someone express their view in a nonthreatening way.

But when we relate this to captivity can we all agree that there isn't much success either diet base.And i will use the findings of a monitor site to make my argument.

I don't have to have breed monitors to know that those that do say that true health is based on how they recover from reproductive events over their expected longevities.So whether you believe in this diet or that diet the bar is set to as what the outcome should be anything less is failure.So a Sav eating hotdogs for six years is really irrelevant we know Sav's can live that long whatever diet rodent or invert based-the test is in their ability to recover from life events.

You are right there is not enough evidence to support either side of the argument.As 90% of all Savannas are not kept at optimal condition.Its is also my opinion that they are far more specialized that we can not meet their dietary needs in captivty.The reason I say this is because just as many fail when set up right when fed either diet.I do support Daniels finding it was done over a long period of time,and other animals where used.

I think we should do our best to meet their dietary needs,but I also feel you can not sustain a 3 to 4 foot monitor on crickets.Too many are dying from being fed to many rodents where as I don't think they can survive solely on the type of insects we offer in captivty.Which leads me to believe they should not be kept in captivty.

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis
2.0.3 Varanus jobiesis
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle
0.1 Varanus Salvidorii
0.0.2 Varanus Salvator

It may be true that we just shouldn't. But, there are other feeding options. Snails, grasshoppers, roaches, slugs, all breedable. I breed snails, roaches, superworms, and soon will start grasshoppers. It's not like there aren't options if you're willing to breed the right feeders.

Re: Snails, grasshoppers, roaches, slugs, etc, in the wild they eat wild bugs. What about going out and collecting bugs as opposed to buying or breeding them?

It's fine as long as you let them get all the foreign or potentially harmful chemicals out of their system before they're fed. At least that's how I look at it. Give them at least a week to run new food through their system. I get slugs and snails from the wild, but I'm only starting a colony so it won't be an issue. The same with grasshoppers eventually, they're just a pain in the ass to catch and even come by.

How do you detoxify bugs? How do you know if they're toxic?

Well I don't know if there's any particular test or anything haha. If there was, I wouldn't bother spending money on it. You just let the eat and poop everything out of their system for at least a week. Some people give it up to a month. I would just take a few, and start an indoor colony so it just isn't an issue in the first place.

I live in a house with a wife and two girls. Roaches are forbidden, even non-invasive species. Besides, buying them is prohibited by state law. I'll manage. My first order of business is attending a reptile show in West Palm Beach tomorrow Saturday and buying a monitor and sneaking it into the house.

that sounds like me.i got back into monitors because my wife hates snakes-but i still see snakes in my future,wish me luck LOL

I bought the only monitor on sale in the whole show, a wild caught juvenile savannah that bites for $40. It was the only chance I'd have to get one. My house is run like a detention center with me the inmate. All boxes are inspected. I still have to figure out where to hide him. The typical jailhouse hiding place would smother it and hurt like hell.

I quite agree with Greg's (manchilds) information apart from the part about not keeping savs in captivity, if kept by the right people with the right knowledge then it shouldn't be a problem.

The only problem is the knowledge usually comes with experience & by then its usually to late! as i know to well.

Yes, the road to knowledge and experience is littered with prematurely dead pets.

that's right, that's why these forums are so important! information sharing.

Most savannahs I've seen over a year old were obese. One of the good things about the wild is limited food. Less food is good for everyone. Aren't obese savannahs more docile? Husbandry is only only relevant for breeders and who looks 15 or 20 years ahead? Maybe someone who is sure he'll still be alive. I'm 60. I've kept my pets an average of about 5 years, after which I donated them to nature reserves, etc. If I had the support of my family, I would've kept them longer, but I'm the only reptile lover in the house and I face daily hostility and non-cooperation which wears me down.

Less food might be good for humans,but underfeeding monitors hasn't been good for monitors.Your results of underfeeding are just different with monitors depending on the conditions you give them.

Aren't we talking about avoiding overfeeding in species that overeat and become obese when allowed to like savannahs?

Talking about husbandry, where are all those baby savannahs that are going for $20 coming from? They must be cheap to raise or are they wild caught? Why raise them when you can get 10 or 20 times as much money for a different species? They sound hard to breed from their dietary finickiness mentioned here. Can babies be wild caught and arrive here for sale while still babies? I doubt it. So what's the financial incentive? The babies I'd prefer go for $175-$250.

I will certainly keep in mind that they are insectivores, but inseects aren't very nutritionally complete, and if you dust them, then isn't that unnatural? They don't eat dusted bugs in the wild. As for roaches, I'd love to breed them, but I'm forbidden to by spouse. (Snakes are also forbidden). Silkies and hornworms are more nutritious, but expensive and many herps I've had refused to eat them (chameleon and bearded dragon). Supermealworms are not nutritious. What about wild caught bugs? I live in South Florida and we have bugs year round. Parasites? Pesticide residues? Toxins?

Since you are looking to go down this bug path I am going to give you a bit of insight that I have gained over the years on it. As I have mentioned and as FR and a few others have mentioned there is really nothing wrong with feeding rodents to savannahs. As long as you have a hot enough basking spot and give them good over all temps and humidity and a large enough cage to actually be active you will not have a problem.
that said here you go with the bug lesson,. I also live in fl although I am in north central fl. so things are a bit different for me than in south fl. but I am familiar with some ins and outs on feeding wild caught bugs here. I have also worked with many species of chameleons and and malagasy geckos as well as varanids so I have lots of insight into bugs. Generally speaking most bugs that are toxic usually taste bad and your lizards will spit them out and sometimes exhibit other signs of them not being pleasant to eat but this is not always the case, In general here in Fl. most grasshoppers are fine with one major exception, the southeastern lubber grasshopper which is the very large gaudily (pink, orange,yellow etc.) colored grasshopper that you commonly see here they are black with an orange stripe when they first hop out in the spring time as well. From what I understand most animals dumb enough to try eating them spit them out and act like they ate a green persimmon afterwards but I had a friend who successfully fed a handful to an Outstaletts chameleon that subsequently died shortly after he started this regimen it had been thriving before (much to my horror btw the way since I had been considering trying them). There are very large katydids here which work well for monitors they are the size of small mice and monitors love them. as I am running out of space I will do another post on bugs.

One thing with grasshoppers is they have a specific lifespan and at least this far north a lot of them die off by december when the dry season hits (they actually start to decline in Nov.) and once it starts getting colder there are only a few species to choose from in the winter most of which are small. I have had some luck getting grasshopper eggs to hatch out but it is sporadic at best, it is much more difficult to breed grasshoppers than it is roaches or crickets and I think a lot of the eggs require a diapause at lower temps than you are going to achieve in artificial conditions. the locusts that are used by europeans and seem to breed more easily than ours are prohibited here so you are not going to be able to use them. I have to chuckle a bit when I read someones p[ost mentioning they are going to breed grasshoppers because they think it is easier than catching them, been there done that and can tell that person hasn't. I'l just go catch them if I need them if I need them thank you very much.
The palmetto roaches are relished by most of the larger bug eaters. I would be leary of them if you use baits or other pesticides or if you live in an urban area where everyone is living very close to each other I live in a rural area away from any orange groves so it is not an issue for me. I have never tried the stinking cockroaches but given that they seem to have the same chemical defense as shield insects (stink bugs.) which is meant to deter predation I have never bothered (not to mention who wants that smell on their hands?). The venezuelan roaches that you find in the mulch of your flower beds are fine (I used to use them as a food staple for lizards as a kid in texas years ago along with field crickets and beetle grubs.Long before the internet or the herp hobby as it existed today and likely before most cricket companies). the problem is they can escape and establish themselves in your monitor cage.

Great answers. Thanks!

Id have given more answers on it but business calls and I had to cut it short. working with the diversity of animals I have had, I have learned alot both good and bad and sometimes the hard way. I am always willing to share my experiences. It is good to look at ideas from several people and come to the conclusions that will work best for you. There is a lot of knowledge to gained on these forums, there is a lot of not so good info as well so evaluate what you read carefully. even from me, I don't know it all. far from it but i am always willing to pass along my observations and both my good and bad experiences. hopefully they will help others and everyone will not think I am a complete idiot in the process.

Forget about it. There's no way.

Choose a smaller species, like a Bosc Monitor.