Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey folks,

I'm starting up a small snake breeding operation. I have decided to go with king snakes. I've got my setup ready, but I'm still stuck on one part: exactly which sort of King should I breed? I am mostly doing this for fun. However, should I decide to sell any of the resulting snakes, I would like them to be a sort that isn't already saturating the market. I'm willing to spend more on the breeders in order to have a better chance at selling babies, if that's what I decide to do.

It's not as simple as just picking the sort of pattern I like, because I like a lot of them. I have a layman's understanding of the genetics behind breeding and morphs. What I don't know about is the marketing aspect. How do I determine what to get, and where to get it?

I figure if I get a type that's easily available, then I'll just end up creating further competition for whoever is already breeding those. Is there enough demand out there that I shouldn't be concerned?

If anyone can offer advice that might lead me on my way forward, that would be great.

The more money you spend on a pair , the better able you will be able to sell them. Spend $50-$100 on a snake means it is saturated.

persoanlly I think higher end Florida kings or Californai zonata are good investments (Look at JKruse posts). I am sure others will chime in with other ideas and morphs.

But I also think people will tell you to choose something YOU like to work with. that comes first. Then learn and grow from there.

Stick aroun here for a while. You will develope your own interest from keeping you er to the ground. You may end up with sevral different types of kings..LOL!.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

I would start by checking out the classifieds at least once a week. Get an ideah of the snakes that are selling and the ones that keep getting marked down. Whatever you choose, get the very best examples you can find, to ensure you will have great looking babies. Don't be in a big hurry. You don't want to start raising a pair for 2 or 3 years only to find out you wish you would have bought something else! Also check out some of the Milk snakes, which can be a little more challenging to raise but usually sell well, like Coastal Milks, and Red Milks. But be warned the reason they are pricey is because babies can sometimes be difficult to work with. Zonatas, also fit in this group, good luck!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I think it is a wonderful thing when you find what you truly like and just do that. Sometimes you go through lots of animals and money and time to get there. When you are there, it is enlightening.

I think fewer animals of just one or two ssp with those being your absolute favorites is a great formula. Of course I say this as a person with a busy day job, so herps are an interest, not a source of income. Thank goodness cause I'd have to file bankruptcy. Because my favs in the king/milk realm tend to be at most $100 snakes but just really attractive examples of the species and in one case locality.

But variation is a big part of what drives this hobby so I give it up to those producing morphs too. There is a place for us all.
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Mark

I am liking the look of California kings, especially black and white banded or black white and red banded. However, I also know these are already being bred and sold by a good many people. Could their popularity outweigh that?

When I do make a decision, where is it best to buy from? Other breeders on the classifieds here? Online pet retailers?

Depends on what black white and red bandeds you are talking about? pyros have pretty much saturated the market. get a califorina (zonata) mountain king for an investment.

better yet. Read and learn about the different kingsnakes. it looks like you are not ready yet to purchase any investment king.

There are Black and whites cal kings and then there are very black and white cal kings. Anything from Turmezie stock has some really nice white (not yellow towrds the belly) Cal desert banded, strped and abbrant cal kings..

I think you really need to hang out and do more research.

or you can just get any Cal king you want. It seems like you wouldn't know the difference what you bought. And that will still make you happy. But your original question made me think you had some knowledge base. I gave you some breedrs names (JKruse, Turmezie)and you can just contact them.

*note-you can contact JKruse here on this forum. just look at the posts and then send a message to JKruse.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

Can I bother you to some links for the sort of info you're talking about? I have read a lot, but I'm not sure if that includes the sorts of stuff you are talking about. I'm at the stage where I have a lot of data, but I'm not sure how it all fits together yet.

Here is my website on Florida kings.

www.bluerosy.com

These make great first time snakes. Easy to keep and bullet proof.

*Shamless plug*

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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

pyros have pretty much saturated the market.
NOW they tell me! LOL!
I'd suggest get what you like the best, so if you wind up with a lot of them you at least have your favorite kind. At shows I rarely see many pyros.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I should have said pyros are the most common of the mountain kings. It is always the rare or unavliable that I like.

you always want what you can't/don't have..it is just human nature.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

When I do make a decision, where is it best to buy from? Other breeders on the classifieds here? Online pet retailers?

For you. I would reccomend contacting someone on this forum. Mos people here breed and sell snakes. JKruse, myself, Dmong, Jlassiter, Crimsoneking ect.

Use the contact button on anyone of these and other names. The bottumn is on the upper left side of each individuals post.

Soince you are already posting here I reccomend you start with these flks. Not the clasifieds or some online pet retailer. You will get better service and helpful advice from those that take the time to post.

Better yet contact FR. LOLOLOLOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

This is a pyro (arizona moutain king) they are less expensive and are very avalaible. but probably harder to sell and not as good an investment.

AZ mountain kings are not the same as the california moutain kings.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

...with what you told the poster. There are some very important things to know about the different types, and to many people just getting into this, they look VERY similar to each other but can actually be as different as night and day.

Many differences indeed, and for many different reasons!. Taking the time to get some of these differences "under the ol' belt" before-hand can make all the difference with being completely satisfied most of the time.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>...with what you told the poster. There are some very important things to know about the different types, and to many people just getting into this, they look VERY similar to each other but can actually be as different as night and day.
>>
>> Many differences indeed, and for many different reasons!. Taking the time to get some of these differences "under the ol' belt" before-hand can make all the difference with being completely satisfied most of the time.

Personally I wouldn't recommend a first time breeder breed any king snake except some hardy, simple getula..........then move onto mexicana, zonata, NA milks, alterna and pyros..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes, I was basically talking about doing alot of reasearch before you jump into something. I think certain ones that you mentioned are not very good "beginner" snakes either in my opinion.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree with that also. But the OP asked for Black-white and red kingsnakes. What are ya goin do..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

>>I agree with that also. But the OP asked for Black-white and red kingsnakes. What are ya goin do..
>>-----

Oh...I didn't catch that.....lol
Mex Mex are good beginner Mexicana....
The strain(s) we have in the hobby are rather hardy compared to some of the thayeri strains.......

BTW....aren't some Floridana black, white and red all over......or is that a newspaper.....hehe
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Yes, I was basically talking about doing alot of reasearch before you jump into something. I think certain ones that you mentioned are not very good "beginner" snakes either in my opinion.

I agree....I don't think I meant to post that directly under your reply.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Rainer, do you have any lineage on that L.p.pyromelana you posted? I may be wrong but to me that looks to be L.knoblochi instead. Theres a couple reasons why I say this.

1. The bands look to stop laterally showing me the are more of a saddle than an actual band. Also showing a white stripe laterally.

2. The band count is up into 50 plus, and the first white band is broken by they black on the head.

Just what I see, correct me if I'm wrong...I know there is variability in both.
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Jimmy Tintle

Based on the suggested changes to pyro/knoblochi taxonomy (A link was posted by Bob (pyromaniac) on the mountain king forum), you will need to know the locality of your snake or a DNA test to determine if it is L. pyromelana, or L. knoblochi, or a "hybrid". It is now being suggested that the pyros from southeastern AZ are actually L. knoblochi.

Interesting implications for those who own generic pyros if the suggested changes are accepted. You soon may no longer be able to look at a snake and identify what species it is. Genetic testing will be required. There is a completely different definition of "species" being used by biologists now that does not fit what hobbyist consider to be a species. The old biological species concept that most hobbyist still adhere to is pretty much dead.

Greg

Interesting implications for those who own generic pyros if the suggested changes are accepted. You soon may no longer be able to look at a snake and identify what species it is. Genetic testing will be required. There is a completely different definition of "species" being used by biologists now that does not fit what hobbyist consider to be a species. The old biological species concept that most hobbyist still adhere to is pretty much dead.

Interesting. just hope that those biologists don't change the species so much that I end up having something that is all-of-a-sudden illegal to keep.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

Yep....I wonder what color the sky is in Burbink's world......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

my bad. It was a pic from 2003. I had pyros and knobs. Got them confused when i posted.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"its kinda like your model builders that work from a kit, if you follow the instructions, its suppose to come out well. Unfortunately, snakes are alive and all manner of things can go wrong, at any time for a million reasons. The truth is, most of those reasons are NOT INCLUDED IN YOUR KIT(husbandry recipe) that you get over the internet. Those are the fun things you get to learn on your own.

Its like you folks think your perfect. Well how you judge that is not what you think, but your results. They tell you how good you did. And that means, past tense. As each and every time you do it, your can succeed or fail. There are no guarantees, no matter how much you know. You must apply your knowledge, each and everytime, and each and everytime the results are a measure of your ability and effort. "

Frank Retes

Thanks for the discussion everyone. I would like to clarify my original question though: I have knowledge of how the care for snakes, and understand how the breeding process works. What I am trying to learn about it how all the different types and morphs work. The articles I've read on them are, for the most part, too scientific to give me a proper understanding. Can anyone point me towards a good place to read about what each type of morph is, the significance of them, their relative rarity and value, and how different traits interact when bred together?

Thanks!

I think the thing to do is first decide what sort of king you specifically want to breed. Then contact breeders of that type. They can explain in layman's terms how the morphs work with their particular snakes.
www.geneticswizard.com/
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Ah, rats! The link I gave has a problem but hopefully they will fix it. Sorry. It is a cool tool.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.