Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why am I seeing a lot of breeders out there selling related pairs,even posting the picture of the whole litter and offering a pair of siblings with a price. What makes thing worse is that I see a few reputable breeders on here doing the same thing. From what I thought through the many years of keeping boas was that a related pairing will cause weak gene pools......am I missing something here? Is it safe to breed a pair of siblings now???

The breeders selling their babies are not doing anything different than has been done forever. Nobody buying a pair from one breeder has to breed them to each other. I would be pleased to get a pair from one person and another pair from someone else and breed the unrelated animals. There is nothing wrong with anyone selling pairs. Sibling breeding is avoidable in almost every instance, but the seller isn't the breeder nessesarily in the scenario you site. The buyer is.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Well put Jeff.

A Cut Above
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np

Nobody is forcing anyone to breed specific animals. Typically just offering a "pair" discount. I have several times bought a pair or more just to get the discount.

Only rarely have I ever bred siblings. When I have done so it was on purpose to test a theory I was seeing a marker for something. More often than not that results in a litter of F2's that is not anything more special than the parents. In another species I have "discovered" a genetic stripe/aby line hidden in animals another breeder had been producing for years without producing an actual stripe/aby baby,

Point being recessive and co-dominant traits are found and/or reproduced by breeding semi or fully related animals.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

As frequently happens, Jeff is entirely correct.. plus his post is clear and concise and non-confrontational. Cheers.
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I hope he will at some time also take on the definitions of the popular terms 'inbreeding' and 'unrelated'. It seems from what I see and hear there is not a clear understanding of those concepts and many people could benefit from such a discussion.. especially led by a prominent player like Jeff.
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Adios!
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Although indescriminate inbreeding is often detrimental, there is a degree of inbreeding in the wild. I recall reading a paper several years ago about how the gene-pools of many species of zoo hooved stock was being "outbred" so fast that the gene pool in captivity was being used up too fast (captives are becoming all related to one another instead of maintaining unrelated or semi-unrelated lines); they're all cousins now (this has greatly affected species such as chevrotain mouse deer). Male boas become breedable a year or more before females from the same litters in the wild I would imagine, which encourages matings between non-sibs...but since there's a degree of territoriality, sperm retention, etc., I would think that many wildcaught boas are from somewhat related breedings.

I will go out on a limb and agree with your post because not all buyers on the kingsnake classifieds are smug big wig snake breeders! There are tons of novice reptile boa hounds that are thinking this is a great idea because of this. In the long run this will throw more weaker boa blood into the gene pool as time goes because of this stuff you brought up.

Jake

Every Morph that is proven genetically (or almost every morph ) was proven by sibling or very closely related animals. I know that the risk of a weeker gene pool can be a real issue, but it is insane to think that most of the captive bred animals arent related. Do your best to outcross the bloodline when possible. My line bred english setter lived over 15 yrs with no health issues.

Smug? I have been called worse... LOL

"Even if I am, that still does not change that the buyer decides what to breed to what, not the seller..." he said with a smudge on his face... LOL I crack myself up even if nobody else laughs...
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Nod- Wink

You crack me up Jeff

I have to agree also it's up to the buyer to do the research and
understand the possibilities of inbreeding or out crossing.

Out crossing has proven to be a very effective breeding strategy not always though.

Inbreeding can have it's good results or it's bad results.

It's then up to you as the breeder to do the right thing. That
includes culling bad babies if they occur.

No one is holding a Gun to anybodies head telling them what to breed,
it's all in your hands . . . you make the decision.

Do your research make your informed decisions (as I have) or
learn from your mistakes as I have also tried to do.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Yes you are missing something... Just because someone sales as a pair doesnt mean you have to breed them together.

Some people buy pairs for the discount and add them to other projects.
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Richard Ceniceros