Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Several folks insinuated that the animal in question was part blackrat. Something about the WS gene.

Well is there proof of that, because if there is only insinuations, then its not a hybrid.

Truthfully, any one can insinuate anything. Thanks

thats exactly right FR anyone CAN insinuate anything, problem with forums is they can do that without reprocussions or even worse anonomously.
Tim Ricks produced the first ws's he stated they popped up in his axanthics and are true floridana however it was always in doubt when they popped up and lots of insinutations were and still are made as to their origins. ive never seen any that looked like they had ratsnake in them. Tim and his partner were known to breed hybrids so his word that they were true fla.king was and still is questioned. like i said ive never seen any that looked like ratsnake, if anything i think he used the ws speck king, but i dont know nor do i really care at this point.
the grandfather to my mongrels was/is a ws from tim ricks and looks trueblue florida to me. he was bred to a MBK to produce the F1 parents to my mongrels which are F2s. i also have F1's that are 75/25 where i bred one of the 50/50 F1's to a trueblue florida, that has now introduced hypo,and lav.albino into the mix with axanthic and ws. im playing with paintjobs within the getula group no more no less. i am representing them honestly as what i feel they are MONGRELKINGS.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

As someone who has produced lines of kings, you don't do it with a few individuals. That is, you don't just pop out perfect individuals.

You end up with lots and lots of hets and intermediates. Which means, those hets and intermediates would have entered the pet trade and people would be aware of them.

For instance, if a person purchased two apparently normal Fla. kings and they bred them, only to be shocked that they hatched out blackrats. Has that happened?

You see, to me, from my experience, these other animals would make an appearance in the pet trade.

Is there any evidence of that? Cheers

Yes, and aren't there yellow rat X speckled kings out there? (Rainer?) They are, from what I remember, quite obviously hybrid looking and of the same 2 genera we are talking about here. Lampropeltis and Pantherophis [Elaphe].
Is there anyone still working with these in any manner that we might take a look at their "progression" either toward a more king look or toward the ratsnake look?
Curious.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>>For instance, if a person purchased two apparently normal Fla. kings and they bred them, only to be shocked that they hatched out blackrats. Has that happened?
You see, to me, from my experience, these other animals would make an appearance in the pet trade.
Is there any evidence of that?

i understand there are intermedieates when breeding for a certain look, thanks
i also understand if it was done with the ratsnake that i dont care, as its been absorbed completely by the getula now. my mongrels show absolutely zero hints of ratsnake and neither did the parents or grandparents of my group. also i have a fairly large group of F1 and F2s and have never seen any ratsnake traits, ever. matter of fact ive never seen any ws king showing any ratsnake traits which is whats implied by the "puritans" so far all ive heard is accusations with zero evidence, and your right there would be alot of intermedieates if indeed thats how they (ws fla.king) came about where are they all??? either way i dont really care
cheers,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hi Frank,

The only reason that such an in insinuation was made is because Rainer brings up the black rat cross often when people mention white-sided brooksi. I have personally taken his statments as truth in this matter because Rainer is clearly a player in the fla king community and can clearly speak intelligently regarding the genesis of many fla. related morphs. He and I have argued about/discussed getula in the past, but when it comes to Fla kings, if he repeatedly states something about a certain line, his opinion/experiences hold water with me (and others).

I have also heard that same story for years in the NE show circuit. However, I do see your point about rumor and inuendo (i.e all getula albinos starting from cali blood and the same for all albino tri colors originating from ruthveni) and the effect that such talk has had on certain market niches (true or not).

If anything, I think that your inquiry is a great example of why people shouldn't just cross things because they can. The truth gets lost down the line and some snakes that shouldn't be dismissed, are kicked to the curb by a lot of hobbyists because there is such a question regarding their genetic proverance.
For many folks it just doesn't matter, but for more of us it does. We just don't buy into the bs and tall tails anymore and many aren't willing to dig deep into their pockets for a new, expensive project for fear that it has been genetically bastardized by some keeper a couple of generations prior.

The reason that so many folks dove ba!!$ deep into western hognose morphs is because they clearly hadn't been crossed into other stuff yet. They are all still w. hogs (at this point anyway). Many have told me that they feel because of hybridizing and its effect on most colubrids, snakes like w. hogs, with such a distinct phenotype, are the last frontier in colubrids. They simply don't trust anything else, and that my friend and mentor, is sad.

Will

......very good INDEED!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That is exactly how I feel. Good post!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"The reason that so many folks dove ba!!$ deep into western hognose morphs is because they clearly hadn't been crossed into other stuff yet."

Good post but not sure I buy the above. It might be how a few feel but I hardly think its a major factor for most people involved.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I would also add that morph production and preservation of genetic integrity isn't always a good fit. I crossed the hypo coastal to other locals to solve fecundity problems and I would venture a guess that locality was scarified to produce multi morph hogs, like bull snakes before them.

If I had one wish for American herpetoculture it would be that we didn't have this fascination for morphs and creating the next new and unique thing because none of them are as interesting or as exciting to me as the knowledge that viable wild populations exist and are secure.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

" If I had one wish for American herpetoculture it would be that we didn't have this fascination for morphs and creating the next new and unique thing because none of them are as interesting or as exciting to me as the knowledge that viable wild populations exist and are secure. "

I agree!
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Genesis 1:1

Hi Tony,

I should have been more clear. I was talking about folks that I know and have personally talked to about their decision to get into w. hogs. Which is certainly a tiny fraction of all the hog keepers out there. Also, I further agree that hog morphs are at this point just pure western hogs from throughout their range. I think that some of the albino lineages had some collection data at some point, but once they are crossed with anacondas, axanthics, blah, blah, blah or other normals from other locales they are just plain w. hogs. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks.

Will

Hi Will,

There is one major point, and that is, the deed is done, and has been done for a very long time.

Its not about who did what, or even why. Its about, once the ability to breed these snakes got to a certain level, then somebody will do it. And will do it for a zillion reasons. So the actual reasons are no longer a concern. Its done and will be done.

The reality here is, you too choose to believe Rainers hearsay over some others hearsay without proof. Again the proof would be the animals. Did Rainer show proof of what he told you, or did he offer his opinion(even if its a good one)

Thats the point I am attempting to make. Most of what everyone here is considering is HEARSAY, that is, what others said. They are not using the animals as evidence. That is except for Thomas. He stated that he produce three generations of those animals and no ratsnake characters has surfaced. Which is only soft evidence. hard evidence would be someone posting pics, you know WS fla kings that HAD ratsnake characteristics. Or such things as questionable scalation.

On a side note, the animals in guestion sounded like mongrels even without ratsnake influence. I mean, how do you have a snake full of goofy non natural morphs and mexican black king, and call it pure or normal???? Normal what? a normal mongrel!

On a side note, its odd to me that you can make those barriers. You know, have a snake thats a mixture of many non phenotypic characters, that was bred to other snakes not from its unique genepool and call it anything but a mut or mongrel.

So what happens when Thomas breeds that line of mongrels and then someone later adds something other then whats already in it, to it. hahahahahaha, its a mongrel mongrel or a mut mongrel. Do you see my point?

My question here is naive, I do not know all the hearsay, nor do I care. I want to see evidence. Which is what I would want in any conversation like this.

Hmmmmm its hard to make this point. Those like Doug keep saying, someday it these hidden gene will pop up and ruin it for those who bought those animals. Yes, thats true, but don't you think after many generations it would be popping up now?

As one who has produced crosses Not hybrids. You cannot mask all the genes.

Take ruthveni, there were crossed to thayeri and alterna. While some individuals look or appear pure thayer or alterna, there are individuals in every clutch, that do not. And those crosses have been around for a very long time.

Even the individuals that "appear" like either thayeri or alterna, have many small characters that are questionable. As in, an experienced eye can tell what they are.

The other point Thomas made was, after many generations there is no indication of Ratsnake, then it does not matter any more.

As a field herper, wild snakes hybridize all the time, but get washed out by sheer number. Yet, they are still pure.

Try researching rattlesnake crosses. There is wild caught individuals of every species, crossing with everyother species. Its widespread.
Also if you look, there are many many natural occurring colubrid hybrids. So what do you think happens to them in nature? Do they have to go sit in the corner?????? Thanks

Hi Frank,

I completely agree with you are far as the hearsay goes. We all have opinions, and Rainer's is an experienced one, but without proof of some kind it is absolutely hearsay. That's all any of this is, with the exception of Thomas, that you rightly pointed out offers direct proof.

The truth is, I am predjudiced against hybrids for some long and deeply held reason (which I can't seem to pinpoint the origin of). I don't like hybrids or integrades (unless mother nature produced them-another contradiction, I know). I think that they dilute our hobby in many ways, but so do morphs. I agree that when compared to a normal wild phenotype, they are all mongrels.

I think you said it best in a different post to Doug:

"Lastly, that you or others here cannot offer any hard evidence that those animals are hybrids, doesn't make them pure either, it just leaves the issue or question, unresolved"

Unresolved is the best way to describe this convoluted mess.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you'll agree, there is a lot of hearsay regarding many of these animals that we keep and that makes selecting a species difficult at times.

As an example, I had wanted to get into diamond pythons for many years, but with all of the co-mingling with carpets, it was tough to find lineages that were accepted as pure. I have even seen many animals from respected breeders of known lineages that I have regrettably declined because there was a lot of banding dorsally. As you know, such banding is used as one of the tell-tale signs of carpet intergradation and would be used to discount my future offspring as mutts if they carried this trait, especially since I am also known for my jungle carpets.

My experiences in my search for pure diamonds have made me even more predjudiced against intergrades/hybrids. I think the biggest problem are the dishonest individuals that pass animals off as something that they are not in order to make a buck. If we all focused our hybrid rage against them, maybe at some point hybrids would seem acceptable to someone like me, or at least not as despised. Thanks Frank.

Will

Hi Will, you are so very welcome to keep what you want, for whatever reason that supports your needs.

But the reality is, the trade is poluted with morphs and hybrids already.

In my opinion thats the best possible thing that can happen for true local specific animals. It will give them value.

To me the biggest problem with the trade is overproduction and the corresponding devaluing of the captive born reptiles.

In order words, don't make so many. hahahahahahahahahaha

The problem with diamonds is, they come in a varity of patterns in nature. What the pet trade calls diamonds is not represented across the range of diamonds. Hmmmmmmm Cheers

"But the reality is, the trade is poluted with morphs and hybrids already.

In my opinion thats the best possible thing that can happen for true local specific animals. It will give them value. "

EXACTLY!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Hi Frank,

I appreciate your comment about the profusion of morphs/hybrids making the locality stuff more valuable. I hadn't considered that. That gives me a "glass is half full angle" to think about (which I always appreciate). I also agree that the mass production strategy is killing the trade. We are over-producing ourselves out of business-with a few species exceptions.

I know that diamonds are exteremly variable in nature, which is great, and part of what I love about them, but the US cb market doesn't see or accept that. It is based on ignorance and fear of carpet mixes. So, unfortunately if I want to sell my babies, they had better look like what the customer base "thinks" diamonds should look like. Which is essentially what Stan C. said they should look in his article years ago - small (3-7 scale) rosettes and no banding. Even though that is a small slice within the diamond phenotype.

Great points Frank, more to think about. Thanks!

Will

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What do you think about Rainers comments on the history of the hybrids? Why do you think Davis will not acknowledge that post?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!