Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Could the fine folks here post pics of these WS fla kings, lots of them. And if you have pics that indicate they are hybrids, then please post those too. Thanks

Please. please, please stop trying to beat this dead horse. All you will ever see now are pics of long-since outbred Florida king snake phenotypes. Any scale count deviations and other strange looks there ever may have been has LOOOONG since been gradually transformed into the more typical Florida king phenotype because of all of the Florida king projects they have since been produced from. The more original cutches would have certainly shown all of this deviation, but I am QUITE certain that these original mutants as well as ANY of the more original hets were all FROZEN right from the very beginning Frank. This is ALWAYS what is done when people want to deceptively toss "imposter" type snakes into this hobby. It is basic "hybridizing 101" for lack of a better term.

Your actual answer has always been directly in front of you about these. Just go ask the "source" that inadvertently let the cat out of the bag after all these years and stop asking Gerard for the photos, DNA, and scale count proof of this ever happening. For chrissakes, why on EARTH would someone post photos of something they intended on producing and selling deceptively???. That would be like murdering someone, and video taping the entire act, THEN showing it to everyone years later..LOL!.

What you are asking of as proof, is LONG GONE Frank, so just please stop attempting to post about it more at the top here for further "damage control". Whatever was done is done, and it cannot ever be reversed. This is my VERY POINT when I frown on things like this being done. It's because they can NEVER be taken back!...........ever!

Anyway, the ONLY reason I am bothering with posting anything further regarding this is because you are constantly trying to discount what has already been presented to you about it.

PLEASE!,......just move on and let it die already. This spinning around and around is going absolutely nowhere now after all of these years.

How about having more people actually PREVENTING things like this from happening in the first place, then it wouldn'y have to always be an issue to the hobby.

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

you reckon that's really Frank?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

........a big touche' Mark!..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Look Doug, I am asking for my own interest, nothing to do with you or others.

I am sorry but I need my own proof, not your BS or others who live to confuse the issue.

I took you out of it, and I am taking Gerold out of it. I even took Bluerosy out of it. I just want to see the animals.

And sir, there is nothing wrong with that and in my opinion thats what these forums are for.

When I see the animals, if enough are shown, I will make my own deductions/conclusions.

So please stop interfering.

Photos of them NOW will prove absolutely NOTHING FR!!. That is what is really the BS part of your equation.

Sure, carry on with your fruitless endeavor, and have fun looking at some photos "concluding" what they are after all these years. You should have looked at some original one's years ago Frank. What you are now doing is trying to find a drop of blood at a crime scene after countless years of raging river floods(countless successive floridana breedings) have washed all the evidence away on the very first flood. .....It's GONE FRANK!

In other words.........it's absolutely FUTILE!!!!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I am not asking Gerard for pics, I am asking anyone who has pics of WS fla kings.

Simply put, it there was Blackrat in them it would resurface.

If for some reason, there are no pictures that show ratsnake characters in these Fla kings. And there have not been for many many years and generations, Then whats the concern?

I know thats a little off topic, but if all genetics of Blackrat is now absent from Fla kings, Then what is the concern?????? I do understand why you would warn people about the possibility of ratsnake genetics if there is none to be seen.

Your started this with the warning that keepers down the line will see ratsnake characters in their Fla kings. Now your saying its entirely gone. Which is it?

Remember, the truth is always with the animals, surely its not with some of you.

"Your started this with the warning that keepers down the line will see ratsnake characters in their Fla kings"

FRANK!!!!!!, if you are going to quote things I said, at LEAST get them from the CORRECT POSTS!!!. I said THAT about the mutts DAVIS is producing!!!There will sadly be PLENTY of morph "surprises" down the road from those!......GUARANTEED FOLKS!!!

BTW, you can certainly quote me on that FR!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.......the "surprises" I mentioned about the other multi-morph/multi-subspecies snakes have absolutely NOTHING to do with any ratsnake phenotypes appearing later on just so it is very clearly understood this time.

The "surprises" I mentioned in an earlier post has absolutely nothing to do with this particular WS topic. The "surprises" will surely come to those who later buy and breed them, and what they originally "thought" they actually were to begin with. Splendida, floridana, MBK's, and whatever else they are later bred to will be what is detrimentally affected.

This should be crystal clear now that I was NOT referring to this particular topic as you suggested.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

No offense, but I don't care about what your saying. As I have stated one million times, I want to see the snakes myself. Thats all, no more, no less.

Why your again interfering in that is beyond me. I just want to see pictures.

Then next time how about not posting things I never said or implied as a DIRECT QUOTE from me?. You are starting to sound more and more like Davis with your comeback replies.

I also look real forward to any so-called "conclusions" on any photos you look at as well. ....how utterly absurd!..HAHAA!!

Let me know how it goes Frank!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You people need to take a chill pill. OK here's a photo for Frank.

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...too darn funny!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't laugh at your Florida kings, don't laugh at mine.
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I wouldn't dream of it!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

No matter what that is or where it came from, That is a pretty snake. I'm jealous, wish I had one.

DAVY

That a cal king x ws brooks
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

Actually its a Cal king X Black Rat.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1913797,1913797
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There is some evidence for you Frank. What do you thing about that? I don't see much Ratsnake in there. I'm not calling you out I am interested in what you think. For real.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

And of course that is a creation that hasn't even been bred to countless more generations of "target" specimens to "seem" more like a certain type of snake.

.....nuff said

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ok Doug, how long have WS Flas been around? What ten, twenty years, Tell me?

If they were around twenty years which I doubt, thats aprox 10 generations. How does that become countless generations? You have ten phalanges to count on. They normally produce on the second year if your captive care is ok. And that is doing well.

So countless generations! your so full of beans and the gas that produces. hahahahahahahahahahaha

You realize the only answer that meaningful is you posting a pic that indicates WS flas are hybrids. If you fail to do that, nothing you can say will prove anything. So Please, put up or shut up. You have said what you have to say, now show what you could show.

If by chance all your conclusions are based on talk by others, then your information is hearsay. If its just your humble opinion, then respectfully, its still hearsay.

Okay Retes,....how about "many" generations then?...or "enough" generations for them to look more phenotypic as the "target" type of animals they are "supposed" to represent?...would THAT work for you this time??????

You sir would want to argue with your executioner if he wanted to hang you with a new rope..LOL!

I am done playing your silly, meaningless, word dissecting games here my friend.

Frank's redundant question...."Were are all the intermediates everyone?"

answer.............."in the freezer Frank" i.e. evidence disposal.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>answer.............."in the freezer Frank" i.e. evidence disposal.
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>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
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>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That would be my guess. The first ws floridana I saw when they were first brought out looked very similar to the black rat X cal king posted above. The head was a little more flattened and triangular, and they blotches were much more spaced out. I literally snickered when I saw them because it was obvious to me they appeared to be hybrids.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Brandon, would you happen to have a picture of one of those animals you saw?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Brandon, would you happen to have a picture of one of those animals you saw?
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>>Gerard
>>www.livebaitclip.com
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>>GONE FISHING!!!

Unfortunately I don't. That was 10 years ago and a few computers since. I probably took pics of them, but they were lost in the computer crashes of the past. I can say they looked nothing like the ws floridana being produced two years later. It doesn't take long.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

" I can say they looked nothing like the ws floridana being produced two years later"

Yes, perhaps one of the most compelling statements thus far.......

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's right Brandon. That would logically be the first thing the original breeder would do to make any later generation offspring seem more authentic to the hobby mainstream. I also very much trust your experienced eye and opinion on what you first noticed visually about these with them having wider cross-bar spacing as the other previously posted Cal. king x WS Black Rat cross displays, along with the odd more ratsnake-shaped head phenotype you noticed about them. I am sure these looked very similar as you pointed out to the Cal. king x WS Black Rat hybrid, only a bit lighter and perhaps just a bit more basal speckled, as many Florida king hatchlings don't display much in the way of inter-band speckling as hatchlings until they start maturing.

I have never been all that interested in many of the floridana morphs in years past, or I would surely have noticed these very same things you did in those more original crosses years ago too.

Glad to hear your input on those Brandon!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, first Thanks for that picture.

My first impression was, hmmmmmmmmmmm maybe they were right, but I need to see more. It appeared it could be a hybrid.

Please understand, I will need to see more. But being a calking/ratsnake is a tiny bit off base.

You should consider that I do not care if they were hybridized or not. I just wondered where the intermediates were. As they should be around and surface commonly.

The only problem I find really odd is, why do certain people want to prevent me from seeing for myself. Why do you and others think I should take what any of you say as fact. The point is, I don't take it as lies or truth, its just casual or hearsay, information.

When working with animals, the truth is always with the animal.

Lets use field work for example. We always read or hear information, then we observe whats occuring in the field. When reading or hearing that information, its not about judging or believing that information. Its simply information to use as a reference if needed or appliable, to the information gained in the field.

The information recieved in the field is REAL, information heard or read is secondary to what is real.

So hearing your opinions was fine, but indeed secondary to seeing the actual animals.

So listening to you guys painted a very unstable confused picture of what that animal was. The only course of action I can take is to omitt that hearsay and look at the subject, the animals in question.

Truthfully, even the pictures may not be able to express the truth. But the may, on the otherhand.

This picture did not appear to be pure calking or pure fla.

I was hoping to make more out of head shape and body shape as you cannot count scales in most pictures.

So, this animal appeared to be more of a WS Blackrat type of pattern, then the WS fla's that I have seen. Again, too few to actually know. The head shape is questionable. Thanks

I'm also just interested in knowing. I have nothing to do with breeding kings for money. I do turtles and do them very well. I love king snakes. I like morphs a lot too. I am only doing them for fun. I am 2 species away from having all the eastern getula. That's all I plan on doing is raising and enjoying them. That picture all though we don't know what generation that animal is looks like a king snake but it has Ratsnake in it. I think that is evidence backing up the info Rainer discovered when he did his research. Rainer I am not calling you out or attacking you just using you as a example.

Another question I have for you Frank about something you wrote about hybrids in the wild getting reabsorbed. In Florida the native slider is the yellow belly slider (trachemys s. Scripta). The introduced Red Ear Slider has started intergrading with the native species. The state scientist are freaking out because they say that could wipe out the yellow bellies. Why are they worried about that if they just get reabsorbed? The initergrade looks totally different.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Fla is unique in that its no longer native, or native habiat.

There are thousands of introduced plants, insects, frogs, fish, mammals and reptiles. So generalist species can indeed take over.

Where I live, the habitat is mostly natural. Snake populations are adapted for where they are at this time. So phenotypic pressures keep them that way. As in, there is no advantage to be different.

Back to fla. Habitats like canals, catchment ponds, etc etc etc etc, are not the habitats that native species were adapted to. So they do not have an advantage or reason to stay the same. Cheers

I'm more interested in the turtle intergrades. The state says that the T.s.elegans are going to wipe out the T. s. scripta from intergrading with each other. Why? It has nothin to do with habitat changes and introduced species of fishn If they just absorb the red ear genes why are they so worried? I have seem the intergrades and they look nothing like either species. I'm curious why some on here think that you can breed out genes from man made intergrades? Serious questions! They are almost the same turtles yet the red ears could wipe the yellow bellys out. They have all the same predators and same basic needs. This is my reason for think that the whole hybrids get absorbed back like it never happend thing is crazy. Thoughts?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Those two problems are out of context to eachother. That is, they are not the same.

RES have shown the ability to replace or impact native turtles, all over the world.

That is, they can outcompeted other turtle species using the same habitat, normally a very general habitat.

Turtle species that are highly adapted, like for bogs, or fast moving water, are not effected.

About habitat change. It was the habitat that selected for(phenotypic pressures) yellow bellied sliders. Once is changed, then its no longer specific for yellow bellied sliders.

Lastly, in nature its not adaption and habitat pressures that determine what exsists.

In captivity, you the keeper are selecting what exsists. You pick what genes are expressed. So if one hybrid event occurs, and is followed nothing but normal events, those genes will be watered down, like a drop of oil in a lake. In nature thats what occurs, Hybrids occur regularly, but are so so outnumbered, they normally disappear.

Unless the phenotypic pressures change(habitat change) and it favors an envasive species or a hybrid, which both do occur.

In your case, you are seeking conformation with your examples, like its A or B. When in reality, there are many many many different directions that can occur. You must pick and use the right ones. Not just any one.(comparisons)

They do affect turtles all over the world. They do it by competing not breeding. The problem in north floods is the intergrading. That's it. The yellow bellys are just as prolific as the red ears. The scientist are worried about the intergrades. This is OT of the hybrid conversation but you mention this and I was interested. Why are they worried if it doesn't matter? In think hybrids happen in the wild but you can't say that every king in the wild has Ratsnake in it.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Hi Gerard,

I would like to meet you because you really have as unique way of thinking.

No one said "all " kingsnakes have or have had ratsnake in them. But for sure, somewhere in nature they have crossed and those offspring so far have not established.

ALso, Because they can interbreed and are close enough to produce viable offspring, it means they are genetically similar, like evolved from a common ancestor.

About biologist worrying, well they do that, but all the worrying in the world will not stop a change in species if the habitat changes and in fla, its changed alot.

All in all, comparing the RES problem with this ratsnake kingsnake thing is not a good comparison.

Also. All captive snakes are being selected for something NON NATURAL. With each generation. We select for "favorite" patterns and colors, we select for shoebox exsistance, we select for pinky and mouse feeders. None of that is "natural" selection. Its totally artificial selection for our keeping pleasure. Cheers

I wasn't comparing them to the king conversation. I was simply curious about a post I think you made about natural intergrades and how they are a part of what I consider WC. I'm done with the WS issue. I think thats not a mystery at all. Shoot me a email If your in Florida. I can ask questions all day long.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

They do affect turtles all over the world. They do it by competing not breeding. The problem in north floods is the intergrading. That's it. The yellow bellys are just as prolific as the red ears. The scientist are worried about the intergrades. This is OT of the hybrid conversation but you mention this and I was interested. Why are they worried if it doesn't matter? In think hybrids happen in the wild but you can't say that every king in the wild has Ratsnake in it.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

predictable the outcome of this "show me the photo" was.

Are post such as these meant to be taken seriously or are they simply an elaborate running joke that all too few of us seem to be in on?

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It's all about the snakes... be the snakes, be the snakes

.....what is the mid body scale count on this animal? Anal plate..divided or not? Any other ratsnake markers?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I think the owner posts here too, maybe he will see this.
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>>You people need to take a chill pill. OK here's a photo for Frank.
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

:d

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

w

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

>>w
>>
>>

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

>>>>w
>>>>
>>>>
>>

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

>>You people need to take a chill pill. OK here's a photo for Frank.
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That is a B & W Cal King X Black Rat. No Florida King.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

How many generations is that animal?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>How many generations is that animal?
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>>Gerard
>>www.livebaitclip.com
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>>GONE FISHING!!!

I would have a guess thats an F2 .

the post below is a second generation
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1846757,1846757

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Paul.

Uk-Hybrids.com

Ross is very aware of what it is, while other's had absolutely no clue.

I also wonder when the White-sided "splendida" and "Mexican Black kings" will magically surface in the hobby later on.

Any ideas...........Davis??..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

........when some some melanistic "floridana" will magically appear as well..HAHAHA!!

You might not get what I am saying, but other's certainly will from reading many of the previous posts here..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Doug. Yes I'm aware. I'd also like to know if its a 50/50% Rat X Cal king.
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>>Thanks Doug. Yes I'm aware. I'd also like to know if its a 50/50% Rat X Cal king.
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Yes it is.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Thanks, man.
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I wish we had "LIKE" button that we could press like on FB. I've had my finger down on that like button since Day One. =)
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

LOL!!,....I hear ya LOUD AND CLEAR bud!..

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com