Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Oh man, Will Still is just poetic and I carry his words like the folks who support the rocker who goes crowd-diving:

"Its not that they'll take it over, its that they'll complete the destruction that started a long time ago. The colubrid world has been dying for some time, slowly, but still dying. A big part of it is because these guys that will breed anything to anything just because they can (and think it's science), will sell their creations, and the genetics will become lost a few years down the road. Likely, it will be perpetrated by some scum-bag who bought the things third hand and wants to make a buck 'cause the mongrels (Thomas' word) look different.

So, he'll misrepresent them to any poor d-bag that is willing to listen to his/her tale. If you've ever been to a show, you've seen the degenerates to whom I refer. They'll tell you anything that you want to hear. Someday, a couple of generations down the road, after the mish-mosh of genetics has been turned over many times, a hobbyist will breed what is thought to be a pair of true whatevers. Naturally, he/she will hatch something that is perceived as special, not realizing that the mis-represented-cluster-f#!k of genetic salad is what it is.

From there, the cycle will continue and the colubrid world will slide deeper into the shat-stew that it has become.

That is what some of us are worried about. I'm not concerned that Thomas or Rainer or whomever in the F1 tier will mis-represent them, but it is a mathamatical certainty that some low-rent slab of donkey turd will down the road. It won't affect me, because I know better, but I know that someone, somewhere will be lied to with the eloquance of a fiction novelist, and another chunk of the colubrid hobby will slip into the abyss and become worthless (to me and others).

That is my problem with it all. Thanks.

Will"

Sorry to flog that decayed stallion carcass, but so very well stated by Will.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's an excellent statement by Will Still. It really does come down to getting animals from someone reputable. I see misrepresnted animals on the classifieds all the time. Recently in fact I saw two seperate ads on the classifieds misrepresenting brooksi x goini. It seemed to me that they were being sold as Brooksi so they didnt have to get stuck on the Hybrid classifieds. One or two the the misrepresenting ads were posted by what many consider a reputable dealer(s). Not good for the "Newbs" buying snakes.

Lu

"It really does come down to getting animals from someone reputable."

Really? I can think of A LOT of 'reputable' dealers that are selling ultra cornsnake morphs with no mention of them originating from a gray rat snake to a cornsnake. It seems to me the dishonesty is across all levels.

"It really does come down to getting animals from someone reputable."

Really? I can think of A LOT of 'reputable' dealers that are selling ultra cornsnake morphs with no mention of them originating from a gray rat snake to a cornsnake. It seems to me the dishonesty is across all levels"

Yes, that one went over REALLY well for a few when I fully explained all that a while back on the cornsnake forum after someone specifically asked about it..HAHAA!!

....(lift carpet,....sweep-sweep)..

Bottom line is this kind of hobby/business will always be a "BUYER BEWARE" market. Unfortunately for many, this can take decades to get fairly good with the many facets.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's too bad. I guess I shoulda said buy from someone you can trust. I know I get most if not all my animals from maybe 2-3 guys who caught their founding stock or they personally know who caught the stock. I also try and keep f1 animals from WC's or close to wild genetics as possible. My Pahokee Kings are from a gravid wc female. She was captured locked up to my male . That I'm assuming makes the offspring wc as well or captive hatched as I've heard it referred to as.

Lu

.....that all may well be true but I honestly don't see name-calling and elitism as being part of a constructive dialogue here.....
it just seems to deepen the divide and strengthen the animosity betweeen "fellow" keepers.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

We should be able to argue without fighting.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I predict as the ability to map genomes becomes more common place, eventually there will be home test kits that one can use to identify DNA; like a home drug test.

Remember when computers were the size of rooms? Now you can have that much power in the palm of your hand. Technology may have the final word on this genetic issue.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I think RONCO has one in the works...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>I think RONCO has one in the works...
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

That is what some of us are worried about. I'm not concerned that Thomas or Rainer or whomever in the F1 tier will mis-represent them,

"We should be able to argue without fighting."

See Gerard, that is kinda hard to do since i posted several times i don't produce or work with hybrids. i havn't in about 6 years. I just think that hybrids are in the mix and anyone who really cares will do some more research before buying a snake (IF IT IS IMPORTANT TO THEM!)

As far as people honestly representing them. That is not where the fakes come from. it is from those who secetly introduce a recessive into another spp and then keep it a secet while backbreeding for sevral years and releasing or feezing the offspring.

But i don't think that anyone would try that again. Not with the internet and the information age. back then it was easy to deceive people. Snakes were sold over magazine ads, price lists and shows. Noadays buyers are more savy. And to be blunt, anyone buying a snake without doing the poper research (internet at their fingertips)really is respnsible if they buy anything and they later find out the snake is a hybrid. Most of these morphs are also only $50. snakes. So it is not like they invested $600. into a hybrid...like what took place in the past before the internet really took hold..

Te othr side of the coin is there are sought after hybrids in the hobby that are more valuable an cost a lot because they ARE HYBRIDS. Some of the boid/python/chondro crosses are outrageous in price.
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

I think what he was saying is you did produce hybrids before. I don't care anymore. If you and I disagree we can do it without getting mad. Thomas on the other hand just can't help but say stupid sh!t. If you say something I don't agree with I'm going to argue with you about it. I don't work with snake morphs so I'm not worried about buying any. The whole WS thing was just curiosity. You said they were and Davis said I don't know what. I was just like Frank, interested in what the truth was. Just for fun. Arguing is good. Fighting does nothing good.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

All this talk about hybrids aand the evil in the hobby is really about money...

The anti hybrids folks on this forum are saying what if Joe blow produces a new morphs from wild caught parents but someone else has already done the hybrids cross. Then that snake will be worth nothing.

Well usually joe blow who produces a new recessive trait is someone who really has no breeding history or has done much (if any) work with breeding snakes. it is usually some no name person who purchases a pair of sibling snakes and gets lucky and pops out a new morph. then they become a houshold name and overnight sensation for being a great breeder. they either sell the whole project off or get help from some high level breeder to bleed the market for as much money possible for that new morph.

So what everyone is really concerened about is if billy-no-name gets a pair of hognoses (or whatever type of snake) and produces a new recessive trait that glows purple and green and shoots lightning out of it arse. then they won't get the chance of making $5000. per animal because someone produced a hybrid of that same version/trait. And since they really did not work at any breeding efforts in their life...they really deserve this money and recognition...>>*sarcasim*

Poor Billy-no-name and Joe Blow. Now they won't hit the jackpot when playing the snake lottery.

These anti-hybrid folks are so caring, genrerous well meaning to be thinking of those people who did nothing and deserve everything.

folks these are snakes in plastic boxes. Nobody cares execpt the govenrment who will be taking this priviledges away soon. get over the infighting and quit fighting about this BS!
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

I have nothing vested in the money part. Hybrids make no sense at all. What the purpose? The anti hybrid people are worried about the integrity of natural phenotypes. What laws are being made because I say hybrids are worthless?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"The anti hybrids folks on this forum are saying what if Joe blow produces a new morphs from wild caught parents but someone else has already done the hybrids cross. Then that snake will be worth nothing"

All that can really be said there is that you have quite an imagination Rainer.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Hi Rainer,

I wasn't taking a shot at you or Thomas. I was merely stating that my post was not directed at you two, as I don't believe that the first tier guys are the main problem, its the ones who acquire the snakes down the road and knowingly pass them off as something that they're not. That happens all the time, I see it at nearly every show I attend.

Sorry, I did not know that you no longer worked with them. I don't read all of your posts and I must have missed where you said had discontinued working with hybrids. My mistake.

Will

Sorry, I did not know that you no longer worked with them. I don't read all of your posts and I must have missed where you said had discontinued working with hybrids. My mistake.

I like locality specific animals, generic, natural intergrades. unnatural intergrades, hybrids, torts, lizards, etc. They are all just different facets of the hobby.

This whole hybrid debate is the same thing as saying everybody should do as i do. Like what i like etc. It is funny how those who are selling locality specifics, generics ect try to diss the iunatural intergrades and hybrids the most.

It all boils down to money! They should just put an advertisment up that says..

"BUY MY SNAKES!"
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

>>Hi Rainer,
>>
>>I wasn't taking a shot at you or Thomas. I was merely stating that my post was not directed at you two, as I don't believe that the first tier guys are the main problem, its the ones who acquire the snakes down the road and knowingly pass them off as something that they're not. That happens all the time, I see it at nearly every show I attend.
>>
>>Sorry, I did not know that you no longer worked with them. I don't read all of your posts and I must have missed where you said had discontinued working with hybrids. My mistake.
>>
>>Will

If the whitesided trait is the result from hybridizing then Rainer states on his site.

( cut from rainers site )
"I don't work much with the whitesided trait anymore. I find it more exciting to breed them into the new morphs"

"I plan on breeding the Hyopo Whitesided into the Peabino and Pewters".

***************************************

Whats that all about then, im quite attached to my whitesided pair and would like to know if they are indeed hybrids, i have not bred them yet, and i would hate to misrepresent them unknowinly if i do breed them.

Im quite confused after reading all the posts over the last few days on the hybrid issue and whitesides

please there must be an answer
are the whitesided florida kings hybrids

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AlbinoHead

please there must be an answer
are the whitesided florida kings hybrids
There is no definite answer.
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yeah well i need to change that on my site. I have about 10 new morphs and have not updated the site in years.

there has been much said in the last week about the ws trait. just read up the below threads. there are several kore than these two if you keep scrolling down this main page..

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1941750,1941750

[url}http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1941706,1941706[/url]
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1941438,1941653
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>yeah well i need to change that on my site. I have about 10 new morphs and have not updated the site in years.
>>
>>there has been much said in the last week about the ws trait. just read up the below threads. there are several kore than these two if you keep scrolling down this main page..
>>
>>
>>forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1941750,1941750
>>
>>[url}http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1941706,1941706[/url]
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>
>>]
>>
>>

My trust seems to be slipping away

why no mention of hybrids when selling the WS , as far as i can tell from the posts you made, you new quite some time ago.

what other lines did you breed the WS into , i have more of your snakes and a few of my freinds have loads from you.

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AlbinoHead

Ive heard for years that the WS was a hybrid. Ive seen and handled several specimens over the years and they do have a very non Floridana shape to the head and neck area. The WS animals these days seem to be looking more Floridana though but still something seems off about them. The problem is you can never breed out the genetics of another species. Its too bad some breeders misrepresented animals they new the history on. I'm sorry you and your friend have been mislead. It's unacceptable to omit knowledge of hybrids in the mix, its tantamount to fraud.

Lu

" The problem is you can never breed out the genetics of another species. Its too bad some breeders misrepresented animals they new the history on. I'm sorry you and your friend have been mislead. It's unacceptable to omit knowledge of hybrids in the mix, its tantamount to fraud. "

Very wise words!!! Great post!
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Genesis 1:1

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Your right Mark,

I was getting irritated about the whole thing and my emotions got the best of me. I have just seen so much mis-representation over the years and the preying upon of inexperienced hobbyists by dealers that lack integrity. It might have been a more constructive post if I left the name calling out. Thanks.

Will

I checked out Will Stills website and he's doing jaguar carpets, diamond coastal intergrades and 75% diamond crosses etc, that some consider hybrids. So what's his beef? That he doesn't like people who are dishonest when selling hybrids? Besides, it's not just the colubrid world that is producing them, it is also happening in the boa and python community too. It's here to stay and it's not going away. There will always be people that will be dishonest when making a buck.

......and it's very frustrating and sad. I've sat atop this soap box for years and some people just don't see beyond the ends of their own noses. Some talk about trying to save habitat and relieving pressures, yada yada yada.....the practices of intentional crossings and hybridizations (as well as the inevitable, innate human joy of the "thrill of the hunt" will always and forever cause people to go out, destroy habitat, collect beyond their limits, etc etc etc. I find it disgusting, but it is what it is. We often shoot ourselves in the foot when we "think" we are doing something cool brandishing the mentality of "well they're all just kings in captivity and are all the same and nothing more" or trying to do something altruistic but not entirely well-thought-out in attempts to relieve pressure off of wild populations or prevent habitat destruction. The bottom line is that people as a whole wil continue to do what they do despite the intermittent, minimal efforts by the altruistic few.........it's either the thrill of making something cool to make their own, or the thrill of the hunt to find something of their own. I hate it, but it's the reality that I've come to accept as sad and pathetic as it is.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

First of all, I have never had a website. Second, the only Morelia with which I work are jungles, diamonds and Boelen's. I don't keep, nor would I ever keep diamond/carpet crosses.

So, I don't know whether your just trollin' or there is in fact another snake keeping Will Still, but the dude you are referring to ain't me. Thanks.

Will

My apologies...my mistake, i thought that was you.

Hi Richard,

That one that I posted to myself was meant for you.

Will

Richard,
I believe that the person that you were referring to may be Will "BIRD" of Kentucky. I do believe that Will works with all of the snakes that you described. Will Birds web site is Extraordinary Ectotherms.
Brad Bauserman

No worries Richard,

I'm just surprised that another set of parents had the sense of humor to saddle a kid with the moniker of "Will Still". LOL

Will

He is confusing you with Will Leary is my guess.

Morelia people are no where NEAR as offended by hybrids

Most morelia on the market is in fact a hybrid no matter how it is labeled.

tell me about your boelens.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Hi Cindy,

The recent trend to cross every Morelia with the jaguar coastals is in large part what aggravates me about the whole hybrid thing. In an effort to create something "new and trendy", those carpet folks muddled many of those special Australian genes that we can no longer access. Characteristics that made each sub-species special are now hard to find because of all of the inter-mingling done to create an animal that is the visual equivalent of a poor to average old school jungle carpet(imho). Sigh...I digress.

Sorry, had to get that off of my chest.

I have had a pair of wild-bred, captive hatched boeleni from Bushmaster for about 5 years now. They are a large, compatible pair in robust health. They have co-habitated and bred every year since they were 5 foot adolescents, but my temps have not been appropriate enough to allow ovulation...yet. Frank has given me some things to think about in regard to their reproductive needs and I am hoping that this winter will be the year.

Thanks Cindy.

Will

>>I have had a pair of wild-bred, captive hatched boeleni from Bushmaster for about 5 years now. They are a large, compatible pair in robust health. They have co-habitated and bred every year since they were 5 foot adolescents, but my temps have not been appropriate enough to allow ovulation...yet. Frank has given me some things to think about in regard to their reproductive needs and I am hoping that this winter will be the year.
>>

Using UV at all? Get ahold of Ari Flagle at MOLA. He is showing follicle development and I think he is the closest.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

...really...I want to cry....BRAVO....such a literist...literary genius....whatever and however you spell it....
Will talks as we all should....even if you have to make up the words and phrases as we go along...

cool....

.....

.....
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........JY

I guess I deserved that..lol

Sarcasm is one of my favorite literary devices.

Will

Thanks Jerry,

I was kind of fired up when I pounded that out, I may have over done it a bit though as some others have pointed out.

Will

....but sometimes people need a bit of forcefulness simply because they are so full of themselves. I have written emotionally-laden threads myself, MANY TIMES. I, too, am passionate and reiterate every single word you've said, name calling or not. Nothing wrong with being outspoken at all, it's how I am and I support it when it's called for. You speak of the BIG PICTURE Will, and I applaud that.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Whenever I buy new snakes, I always prefer dealing with the locality guys because they have the best animals and are more knowledgeable. Just the way I see it from a buyers standpoint. I am not anti-hybrid, just pro-quality.

I appreciate your kind words Jerry.

Will

Jerry as the victim of the self appointed purity police I’m surprised your stance remains relatively free of nuance.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

stay tuned.......LOL!
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I guess that dinner invite is still pending
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM