Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the Holiday weekend the Sinaloans finally started hatching. I even got an albino. You can see the head in the lower left of the photo. This was a good batch of eggs. Eleven eggs and eleven healthy babies.

Pete

Congratulations on the hatch!

I will say however that there is very obvious L.t.nelsoni geneflow in those animals. The very close together sets of triads(rings of three), the higher RBR (red body ring) count and the the fact that there is also an amelanistic(albino) one in the clutch is all very indicative of there being Nelson's milksnake genetic influence there regardless of what someone might have called the parents previously. This happens very often in the hobby as the two subspecies are very closely related, and the fact that the vast majority of hobbyists have no clue as to the specific meristical differences that set the two subspecies apart from one another. This is also the reason there are so many intermediate intergrades in the hobby mainstream.

In other words, to call those true "Sinaloan" milksnakes wouldn't be accurate. They are actually intergrade intermediates of the two subspecies. The amelanistic gene is derived from the Nelson's milksnake that originated back in the mid-90's.

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree they are not pure Sinaloan. I probably should have mentioned that their is some Nelsoni influence knowing that they would be viewed by discerning eyes. I was just happy to get a good hatch. The hatchlings definately show Nelsoni influence some more than others. When I first got the parents as hatchlings they were labeled as Sinaloans. However, when they matured and produced there first batch of eggs I knew there was Nelsoni influence by virtue of getting hatchling albinos. I have read Nathans and your accounts and evaluated the parents over the years and concluded that they have more Sinaloan characteristics than Nelsoni so I keep calling them Sinaloans.
I do advise potential buyers of these snakes that they are not pure Sinaloan. I attached pictures of the parents, the first is the female and the second the male. They are both 06s. What do you think?

Thanks for not taking my comment as a huge slader first of all, as I was merely trying to see if you were aware of this.

Yes, your female has a very typical sinaloae phenotype, while the male has more of an outwardly typical nelsoni phenotype.

BTW, does your female have a thin completely connected first black ring under the throat(typically points toward snout), and does your male have an incomplete broken void "notch" in the first black ring under the throat?. Those are also some typically seen key features of either subspecies.

Also the low ring count and more vertical, thinner black rings, as well as the red rings not being obscured by black pigment in the tail portion of the female's tail point toward a much more sinaloae phenotype.

The male in the lower pic has much wider black rings arching outward more and also has black pigment obscuring the red rings in the tail past the cloaca. Some Sinaloans can also have black tails, but it is MUCH more common in nelsoni.

That is a nice looking clutch by the way......

regards, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com