Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I recently have gotten into wanting to breed king snakes, and picked up a 1.1 MBK pair. The male is an adult that is ready, but I am not certain about the female. What is the average length, age, gram weight a female should be at before attempting to breed? I am still researching and won't be ready till after the winter, but I am hoping she will be of size!! I don't have her measurements with me at the moment to tell you guys. Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Oops! I did not mean to post this twice!! Sorry!!

Hello, I recently have gotten into wanting to breed king snakes, and picked up a 1.1 MBK pair. The male is an adult that is ready, but I am not certain about the female. What is the average length, age, gram weight a female should be at before attempting to breed? I am still researching and won't be ready till after the winter, but I am hoping she will be of size!! I don't have her measurements with me at the moment to tell you guys. Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

Just bond them during brumation (place them together when you cool them and leave them together)and they will breed when THEY are ready. A female is "big" enough when she ovulates.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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When this type of question comes up you almost always dive into telling everyone to bond, bond, bond. Well I have a question. Don't you think you might want to ask people new to the breeding part of it some questions first(notice I didn't feel the need to call them newbies which might put the person on the defense and therefore they might not want to listen to your advice). Questions like how big is the female. Is she similar in size to the male or is the male three times her size. You might ask if they are familiar with cooling or even plan on cooling their snakes in some fashion. Other questions which you definatly know might make a big difference in whether they are really prepared to go that route and if not, give them the advice to make sure their ready for that. I ask you these questions because you appear so motivated to jump directly to that most of the time that you don't check on other important things that you good and well know, can make all the difference.

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Randy Whittington

Male and female size does make a bit of difference when bonded.

The problem you and others have is this way of caring and breeding snakes is actually easier and takes away the probabilty of cannibalism. Whereas with the method of keeping them seprate and introducing them is not safe.

It will also assure the keeper won't miss the windor of ovulation. Not to mention sevral clucthes year round.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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"It will also assure the keeper won't miss the windor of ovulation. Not to mention sevral clucthes year round."

This part I agree with!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I'm not sure how you assume how I have or haven't kept my snakes Rainer. Nothing i've said insinuates that I haven't kept pairs together because I have at times with various species but I sure don't do it across the board either. I meant what only what I said in my post and don't get into all this childish one side or the other crap that goes on in this paticular forum. I just think it would not be in some of the posters snakes best interest to always jump straight to that advise without getting some other info at times. Thats all.
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Randy Whittington

I'm not sure how you assume how I have or haven't kept my snakes Rainer. Nothing i've said insinuates that I haven't kept pairs together because I have at times with various species but I sure don't do it across the board either. I meant what only what I said in my post and don't get into all this childish one side or the other crap that goes on in this paticular forum. I just think it would not be in some of the posters snakes best interest to always jump straight to that advise without getting some other info at times. Thats all

What advice? The bonding during winter simplifies everything and takes all the work out of the process.

So really there is not much advice or to talk about. But if one wants to breed snakes by putting them together during spring. Then there is a lot to talk about.And a lot to worry about!

So yes, with the "traditional" method. There needs to be a LOT of explanations. A lot to learn. But really it is all as$ backwards. Because that is NOT how kingsnakes naturally behaive. Don't you see that doing something unatural makes things more complicated.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Not sure if you didn't read my posts or your determined they mean other than what I wrote. It's your choice whether you choose give thorough advice in your responses to peoples questions or not. I'll leave it at that.
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Randy Whittington

"A female is "big" enough when she ovulates."

This is not always true either. Small females have been known to get eggbound, or have a prolapsed oviduct while passing eggs that are larger then they can pass. I had one this season! I had to puntcture the eggs and pull them out, and push her oviduct back in, and sh is doing great now, but the eggs were much too large for her, and she was 3 feet long. I know smaller ones have laid with no problem, but there you go! Sh!t happens! Now I know someone is going to jump in and say it's my husbandry, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

My 09 bull snakes bred this year even though I had not planned on that; but they had their own plans! LOL! This set the female back on growth for the year as she had to make up for the toll the egg production took on her. She is now back to prebreeding weight and is in fine fettle. But it would have been better to have waited until next year when she had grown more. I was very worried about her as breeding took quite a toll on such as young female. I was going to on purpose breed them next year but now she has the year off to grow instead. (Separate tanks to prevent them breeding; I normally do the bonding thing aka Blurosy)

My 08 pyros had attained pretty much their full adult size when they commenced to breed, and the recovery for the female was very quick and she grew some as well.

In summation, I suggest one wait until the female is full grown, so the breeding does not impede the growth.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I suggest one wait until the female is full grown, so the breeding does not impede the growth.

I have never found this to be true.

I think tis statement boils down to what "we" think a females size should be. But really it is not based on any facts.

A small female Kuingsnake that lays eggs will not "stunt" its growth.

I had Florida kingsnake females lay eggs at 20-22" and it never impeded their growth. Sure you have to feed them to get weight back on and that usually (at least with getula) goes very quickly. But none of mine ever had any problems with stunted growth.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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I know it's anecdotal (and the plural of anecdotes is not data) but mine have continued growing massively after laying 1-2 clutches this year. My WS female was like 350 going into the season, is closer to 650 now, my hypo was like 300 is now 600 , and each have packed on at least several inches in length (going from ~30 to 36-40" in TL). I did seperate the hypo after her 2nd clutch because I didn't want a third clutch to deal with though.

I did have one female--the rescue one--that didn't breed this year. She did ovulate and I saw some courting but nothing happened. She was about 600 going into the season, is about 600 now, but it's hard to tell what exactly is doing what with a snake with that history. I only attempted to bred her because I saw the ovulation and she's frankly rather pretty. The normal PH male that I didn't really use for breeding this year is slightly (like 50-100 grams) larger than my WS or Axanthic that I did use for breeding, but it's a pretty tiny difference.

I'd say feeding while gravid made a HUGE difference. They didn't eat nearly as much but 2-3 hopper mice a week vs nothing is a massive difference.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

I was worried I had stunted my female bull but she ate up a storm after laying her clutch, so I guess the early breeding was not that harmful after all. Still, though, I would rather she had been bigger before breeding. My pyro was just the right size, so I had no worries about her, and she also ate a lot after laying her clutch. Neither one ate much while gravid, though, and looked pretty scrawny after they laid the eggs.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I personally do not prefer to house my kings together...you never know when 1 might get to hungry...so I would say if she is past that 30 inch mark...make sure you hibernate and put them together during the spring of the year where you live...

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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

I personally do not prefer to house my kings together...you never know when 1 might get to hungry...so I would say if she is past that 30 inch mark...make sure you hibernate and put them together during the spring of the year where you live...

well if you don't bond them during brumation, then you will risk cannibalzing when you put them together in the spring. actually it is very risky to do it this way and i would not reccomend it for beginners.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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>>>I personally do not prefer to house my kings together...you never know when 1 might get to hungry...

thats why good record keeping will help you realize how much and how often your kings... get hungry... listen to your snakes! they will tell you EVERYTHING they want.

,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tom...what makes you think I do not keep good records...I gave my opinion....thats it...I didnt ask for a smart ass remark
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

>>Tom...what makes you think I do not keep good records...I gave my opinion....thats it...I didnt ask for a smart ass remark
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>>Michael Enriquez
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>> Enriquez Reptiles

That's really all we ever get from him, so don't take it personal, lol! He's like that to everybody, except ...maybe 3 people on here.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

chill out tough guy...

you said >>>I personally do not prefer to house my kings together...you never know when 1 might get to hungry...

if you kept good records you would KNOW WHEN your kings are hungry PERIOD!
the end.

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

That's just his regular remark.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I would recommend that you not put your kings together until you are ready to breed them in the spring time. A female will not breed unless she is capable.....I have bred cal kings in the past at 18 months old.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Very much agree! Good post.

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Genesis 1:1

I would recommend that you not put your kings together until you are ready to breed them in the spring time. A female will not breed unless she is capable.....I have bred cal kings in the past at 18 months old.

Ugh, Here we go again.

A pair of kingsnakes that are introduced during winter brumation WILL NOT EAT EACH OTHER! PERIOD!

Soo, THIS WAY A NEWBY OR SOMEONE WHO IS PLAYING AROUND TO SEE WHEN THE FEMALE IS OVULATION BY REMOVING AND REPLACING MALES BACK AND FORTH WON'T HAVE AN ACCIDENT AND ONE EATS THE OTHER INSTEAD OF BREEDING IT!

I guess what we will see here are responses from people who have never tried bonding.

Kingsnakes bond. They can live together year round. But if you introduce a king into a group or individual cage. You risk cannibalizing. That's simple enough for any one to understand..
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www.Bluerosy.com

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I will put two adults together this winter and see how it goes. I've kept several kingsnakes paired up in the past without introducing them during brumation and never had a problem. I'm just afraid to do it with snakes I could never replace.
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I'm just afraid to do it with snakes I could never replace

this is not against you Ros.. but your thoughts are the same as the most "prolific" posters on here. I could name all of them that will chime on here. But we all know who they are.

The key word here is "fear". FEAR of the unkown. the unkown part being I have tried it and was also fearful. But I discovered my fars were completly unfounded. Even to the point of 2 snakes latching onto a food item or each other. Only to see them relaes everytime. This does not happen with UNbonded snakes.

As everyone knows I bond all my Florida kings and keep them together year round with zero problems.

The great thing is this whole bonding thing during winter takes the "guess work" out of when a female ovulates....is she big enough??...age????..ect yada yada yada.

I suggest to these 'experinced hardheads to try it. The snakes want to breed when they are ready. "We" don't BREED snakes. Thy breed each other.

the really cool thing about bonding during winter. it is totally safe for newboies and takes the guess work out of which females is old or big enough. it takes the giess work of when to place them together. it takes the guess work out of worrying about "will they eat each other" or "breed each other " . And it definetly takes any chances of cannibalism happening. Snakes that are not bonded in a newbies hands CAn eat each oter. Otherwise ho does the newbie know the difference ebtween a male brabbing the neck of a female to copulate or whether the female is trying to eat her. or why the male is going spastic when placed in a females cage and the keeper/newbie takes the male sout only to keep trying over and over again..

my gosh, you experienced guys with the solid rock hard heads. Why kick against the gourds or herpetoculture?
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Yes I agree we are afraid to do it. What makes me different is I actually believe you because I have kept kings together before for years and had no problems, even during times I should have fed them more often. I'm willing to try it slowly with individuals that are replaceable, and who knows where I will go from there. You can't learn if you don't try new things, IMO.
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I have lost snakes that were together for years. You never know why things happen sometimes. Some of us think we have everything figured out but sh!t happens, sometimes for no apperent reason. Like when a cat poops in the litter box 99 times, but then on the 100th time it goes behind the couch! What's up with that? We don't know everything. I've seen snakes turn on their cage mate just because I open the drawer and they expect food is coming, but another snake pokes his head up and bam! This just happened last week with Yellow Rat snakes! I don't think they usually eat other rat snakes do they?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

" I have lost snakes that were together for years. You never know why things happen sometimes. Some of us think we have everything figured out but sh!t happens, sometimes for no apperent reason. Like when a cat poops in the litter box 99 times, but then on the 100th time it goes behind the couch! What's up with that? We don't know everything. I've seen snakes turn on their cage mate just because I open the drawer and they expect food is coming, but another snake pokes his head up and bam! This just happened last week with Yellow Rat snakes! I don't think they usually eat other rat snakes do they? "

Great post Jorge!!

I have known of hognoses and sonoran gophers doing just what you described as well, amidst the king examples. Since kingsnakes are biologically wired to EAT other snakes, and will eat their own, being solitary animals to begin with, with no ample evidence they " bond ", which is sheer laughable at best, you will have what happens that you have experienced, happen. It is just plain scientific fact that overshadows the new form of laziness that has crept into the hobby, known as " Ghetto Herping ", an exemplified form of laziness mixed into the lack of true care for snakes in captivity.

That's like a drug dealer stating to a buyer that the drugs they will be buying very possibly WILL NOT be physically destructive to their bodies. LOL! The drugs are scientifically proven to do just that!!!!!! Just like Kingsnakes, you can not REMOVE their ability in all ways, to eat other snakes.

Just like you can't prevent me from eating BBQ! LOL!!!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

>>>You can't learn if you don't try new things, IMO.

GOOD FOR YOU!
cant argue with wisdom... well as can seen on this forum "some" can and do over and over and over and over again rather than try anything new, SAD.
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It's not new, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Knowledge with ignorance. You are consistent, I'll give you that.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

This is the point I always bring up, but the Bondage mafia always thinks I am against bonding, or whatever you want to call it. There is always a risk! All the pre-requisists, that I like to call the 12 step program to bonding, are intended to reduce the risks. I have three Brooks that have been together since spring. Not Winter, I said spring! However I know that there is a risk, of me finding only 2 one day. Especially if I take too long between feedings or whatever. So as you said Ross, I wouldn't do it with snakes that might break my heart if they got eaten. Know what I mean? It can happen, and it does happen. Maybe not often, but then maybe more often than some want to admit? Which ever the case may be, there is always a risk.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

You gave an opinion....and I gave mine....get over it.

Your opinion has no more validation than my opinion......get over it.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

I still want to know who said you can't do it. All I have heard is people not caring about doing the bondage thing.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I have a few females given to me because they were cannibals...
One is kinda comical, in a way....
Thing is, even after all these years, she still tries to eat her mate...and the weird part is, that just TURNS HIM ON!
Seriously, I can hold her and he'll breed her, then and there....but if I did not intervene, I would have a well fed female.....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Too funny Mark!!!
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Genesis 1:1

**caring about doing the bondage thing**

I care about bondage....but that is kinky......well sometimes.....

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

It's just that everyone knows about it. People do things their own way. Not everyone is trying to mass produce all their females.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

....have a safe word........
(that's what I hear anyway )
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I like bananas. It's a good loud word that you can't possibly say by mistake (unless you use food in bed I guess?).
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Bananna? Uh, No. Bananna is NOT a "safe word". You say that now, but your biggest nightmare come true would be when you're tied up, and you say "bananna", and she leaves the room for a second, and then COMES BACK IN, WITH a 12" bananna.

You gotta think of something that ACTUALLY IS, "safe".

HA HA HA and dont use Zuchinni as a safe word either lol

Lu

Hahahaha!!! Yeah no kidding.

>>Hahahaha!!! Yeah no kidding.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

works really well. Kerby has produced a few snakes before.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I see there is some mild controversy, I did not mean to spark any bickering! I am just here learning, and I have to ask and read to learn. I really appreciate all of the great answers. I am not new to breeding, I do ball pythons, and was not sure if like a female ball, there was a size issue. I have not had the chance to get her measured, but she is bigger than the male.

As far as the bonding thing, this is something I am new at, I was un aware of this, and will certainly be doing far more research before pairing them. Dealing with kings is new to me, and I will do it as safe as I possibly can, and only when I feel ready with the right knowledge. The animals safety and health is my biggest concern, and I will probably be asking more questions!!! Thanks again, keep all info you have coming at me!!

you have the right attitude, and I'm sure you will do fine. My only advice from here is, dispite the argueing that may erupt, there is good info on both sides of the arguement. Listen and choose what path you feel most comfortable with. Both methods work, and both have risks. But one is supervised.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Listen and choose what path you feel most comfortable with. Both methods work, and both have risks. But one is supervised.
For the last 20 years I have been keeping thousands of bonded Florida kings kept communually. Do you really think they need supervision? Do you think i sit and watch them day and night?

Oh wait, you meant if you DON"T bond them. Oops sorry. My bad.

So what risks are there with properly bonded snakes?

The only risks i see are the ones that are not bonded and put into a cage during spring or summer to breed. That is definelty risky!
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www.Bluerosy.com

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"I see there is some mild controversy"

You are in for a mighty big surprise..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

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Yes I am starting to see the controversy! It's ok, it gives me more to research. I am liking the idea of the bonding from what I have read, but like I said before, I plan on doing quite a bit more asking around and research before I do anything.

Yes I am starting to see the controversy! It's ok, it gives me more to research. I am liking the idea of the bonding from what I have read, but like I said before, I plan on doing quite a bit more asking around and research before I do anything.

If you can check on some of the posts by FR (Frank retes) on the bonding suject here on the forums. He writes much better than I do and explains things a lot more thorough.

There are some great post by him if you do a search on "bonding" and click on "FR" posts.
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Thank you blue! I will check that out as well. again, i really appreciate it, also the "bickering" has given me a good laugh today.