Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I mostly just read here and post very little. One thing I see coming up time and time again is the issue of "Bonding". I see bonding with many Crotalid species and most Thamnophis species etc...I don't have an opinion either way as to what works better. Ive seen some here say that Bonding is more natural for the snakes. My question is are there any studies observing Kingsnakes doing this in the wild? Or is it that some have seen some types of snakes "bond" and they just across the board assume all snakes naturally live like this? Has it been considered that snakes are simply adapting to the captive bonding set-up as opposed to preferring it? Again the same can be said for the more traditional way of keeping snakes as well. I guess I just want to know how Bluerosy and FR have come to know about Floridana and other Getula Kings preferring "Bonding" over any other way of keeping. I will say that more babies per year isn't indicative of "Bonding" being a more natural or better way. If that's the case then Cows in a Dairy Herd produce more young and Milk than their wild counterparts and they aren't in anyway in a more natural situation. I guess it comes down to how do we measure the quality of a snakes life? Large size? lack of disease? Long life? A snake has a job to do and that's eat, breed and grow. If the tools and food provided get this done in captivity then isn't the snake "Happy" so to speak regardless of how they are kept. I think I'm starting to wander here so what I want to know from you Bonding guys is what data or research backs up that bonding happens in the wild with Getula? I'm especially interested to hear about Floridana and Bonding in the wild. Thanks for the replies and please keep it civil

Lu

"Has it been considered that snakes are simply adapting to the captive bonding set-up as opposed to preferring it?"

Good thoughts, and one that I have already thought about long ago. It certainly doesn't mean the snakes prefer it. If the keeper places mutiple snakes in the same container, what "choice" do any of them have in the matter?. It might allow each female to have multiple clutches for the keeper to sell, but I am quite certain that isn't the main goal for every keeper, just some.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The evidence of floridana "bonding" in the wild would be nice to read. Is there studies done or is it hearsay? Where do they live together? Who as seen them do this in the field?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Your post shows you really do care about learning AND your snakes. That is to be commended.

These are my opinions, and also, opinions of several biologists, field herpers, top kingsnake breeders in our country, and others who simply do not want to have to deal with the childish behaviour on this forum that can be seen at times.

Snakes do not bond. There are no studies in the wild ever proving this theory. They are solitary animals. You are reading the opinions of some, not all, but some, who justify hoarding animals and then use the term called " bonding " to TRY to make it sound justified. Attracting attention by saying things so " against the grain " is what can be seen being fed off of at times. Thriving on conflict and internet bullying is not what this forum or any forum dedicated to the study of an animal, should be used for.

A snake's instinct is to live separately, as they do not need company.

Snakes can and do share dens together during a cold dormancy. Once that is over, they head out separately. Evidence of bonding is not there. They simply used the best area to brumate.

Just because they are found under the same board or rock does not mean a thing. They are using the one safe area within a habitat to hide from predators. That does not mean a thing in terms of bonding. Kings eat each other as well in the wild. Recent example over on the milk forum of L.T.T. eating another in the wild under a board. Just one example amidst the many others.

If some are housed together, they can tolerate each other under the right circumstances. Once those circumstances change, anything can happen. The proof is there.

In the wild, they do not gang together to hunt for food.

Put one female snake emitting pheromones into a cage with five males and it is a sure thing every one of them will mate with it. Put five females with one male snake in a cage and that male will try to breed each and every one of them. There will not even be a preference for one particular female mate. EVER. Due to that simple scientific fact alone, that throws the bonding theory out the door.

So, just my thoughts, and what you are reading is a bunch of opinions. I would just try to stick to scientific fact and to stick to what would be the best for your snakes. Crowding a bunch of snakes together in a plastic box, while the cleanliness conditions take a downward spiral, along with the stress of each snake going up, is not healthy for the animal.

Take care!

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Genesis 1:1

well said post Billy. Is that one of Doug's high yellows? Thats one NICE brooksi....Dave.

Thanks Dave!!

That is actually my first brooks ever, a Love-line hypo from John Meltzer. Been an absolutely wonderful pet.

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Genesis 1:1

Excellent answers to equally excellent questions.

If there is one shred of scientific evidence for the argument that any snake species bond I have yet to read it.

Having said that... it can, and should be, pointed out that kings can be housed together... it's been done for decades, FR and Bluerosy are hardly breaking new ground in this concept. If I had the number of snakes they seem to have and my bottom line when it was all said and done was to make a few bucks I'd do it myself... but my very limited number of snakes are first and foremost pets and regardless of how many I have in the future that will always be the case, so I wouldn't run the risk simply because it can be done... you play with fire and sooner or later you will get burned

Long and short of it... it can't be said much better than Discern has just done...

Good luck with your wish for civility, I've tried it in the past... turned out to be the longest most pointless thread I have ever had the displeasure to read.

Gerry

"....so I wouldn't run the risk simply because it can be done... you play with fire and sooner or later you will get burned. "

Thanks Gerry! Wise words you have said.
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Genesis 1:1

Good post! You have covered this subject well in all the details.

I prefer the term cohabitation to bonding, as I do cohabitate some of my older snakes in trios, but I don't expect them to be all warm and fuzzy about it, which the word bonding infers. Also it takes big cages to do the cohabitation in a way that is comfortable for the animals. So if one thinks it is possible to have more snakes by putting them together, then one will need a lot more room because of needing the big cages.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Good thoughts Bob!
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Genesis 1:1

Here is some recent LTT bonding I discovered in the wild.

Bigger snake comes arcoss smaller snake, big snake is hungry, smaller snake gets eaten. LOL. This actually is the first evidence I have ever seen of this with LTT in the wild, but I did find it interesting. I have no evidence they bond in nature, they just might, but I do know they eat each other in nature!

For sure one can't put a little snake in with a big snake, and on top of that have the big snake be hungry! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

They do seem to be getting along quite well don't they.

Rather a shame you didn't happen upon this a little sooner, both are handsome looking animals.

Gerry

Gerry, I had caught the little hatchling the previous morning and put her back under the board.I was checking my board line at almost 1am to see if I could see some feeding action. I found the larger one all nice and fat, she had JUST eaten the smaller animal. I knew she was going to regurgitate so I wanted to take photos, weigh, and measure the animals. The hatchling was in shed so I knew it would not leave the board. Too bad what happened, but it probably happens more then we think.

Joe

Just thought you might enjoy this photo.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Gorgeous pic!!
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Genesis 1:1

Very nice! Are they yours?

Gerry

They aren't mine although I wish they were! They are blue speckled rattlesnakes from an ad I saw a few years ago.

I have wondered if rattlesnakes don't routinely eat each other because they normally find their food by heat, and another reptile would not have much of a heat signature, unlike a mammal which is hot and easy to sense.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

A lot of snakes don't eat each other, and they don't have heat pits. Those are very pretty by the way.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Man, those things are sweet. Wow.

Joe

I wont do it...I just dont feel comfortable with it and I have been succesful in the past not doing it....if it aint broke...dont fix it....that being said....Im sick and tired of feeling like Im being attacked for my OPINION...and my list is up to 3 that I will NEVER buy from because of this stance that Im wrong and they are right?????
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

Trust me, you should never feel that way, and those that make you feel that way are just insecure.
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Genesis 1:1

"Im sick and tired of feeling like Im being attacked for my OPINION...and my list is up to 3 that I will NEVER buy from because of this stance that Im wrong and they are right?????"

I totally agree. This "bonding" dictatorship here gets extremely OLD!

There are many others that feel the very same way, and many more still that have quite posting on this forum altogether because they are so tired of the non-stop nonsense they continually see here.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I was hoping to get several different views on this but looks like most of the Pro Bonding guys have checked out of this one.

Lu

Yeah maybe for a short time but I don't really know. I do know we see pairs under the same board from Feb to mid May. It happens a lot too, and most of the time its male and female. I've never found them paired up in fall when they come out again. I'm guessing they don't just mate once and go on their way. I think they stick together for a while or maybe the male sticks to the female for a while. I don't think they stay with each other all year, but who knows...
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That would be my guess judging on what I see in captivity. The males stick to the females relentlessly. Almost like Pepe Le-Pu, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

,
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In general, if both snakes are fertile, and the female is ovulating, they will breed. If the timing is perfect, they'll be locked up 5 minutes after being introduced.

I have a few pairs I've kept together for years. Some breed, some don't. It doesn't seem to make any meaningful difference. My normal practice is to leave breeding pairs together for weeks to months at a time during the spring to maximize the chances of getting the timing right. This has helped with females that ovulate late in the season. I have a clutch of brooksi eggs that were laid late July from a first time breeding. Had I not left the pair together all spring, and into the summer, I may not have gotten any fertile eggs from that female.
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www.brooksi.com