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He's around 14 months old, 44" long, and weighs 650g. I feed him around 50g in mice every 7 days, but his head looks really small for his body. Am i overfeeding him or are his proportions part of the normal growth pattern?
When i first got him back in November 2010:
This is him now (i fed him one day before i took the pic):
He is still growing, so he will make use of the weight. Some will say back off the food a bit, others will say feed him more! It's really a personal preference. After the snake reaches full size, is when you need to be more attentive to his feedings. Since they cease growing, they can get too fat. If you are breeding a female regularly she will use it toward making eggs. Males tend to go off feed sometimes when they are in breeding mode. Good luck, it has nice colors by the way.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Yeah kinda. My yearling male cornsnake is the same way. I have noticed that young snakes fed alot in captivity will have smaller heads than older snakes of the approximate same size. I think their heads grow slower than the rest of their bodies, then catch up later.
Here is my male corn. I hatched him last August, and he is now 44 inches long according to the Snake Measurer program. I am going to cut back on his feedings as fall is almost here and I plan to brumate him.
To stay on topic, here is my 2008 alterna male. He is 40 inches.
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Kent
1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) corn snakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded king snakes, blairs phase, 2008
0.0.18 Gray-banded king snakes, 2011
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, w/c 2000 and something
Colossians 3:17
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Ehh..I have seen much worse in terms of being fat. He seems a little big, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. I personally would not want him any bigger than that. I don't see any skin between the scales, or fat rolls in coils, two things that are giveaways of an obese snake, so that's cool.
Brooks tend to have really small heads as well, so that may put ya at ease.
Very pretty snake!! 
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Genesis 1:1
yes
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
NO.
He is just growing and looks healthy for a small snake.
It is sad to see large heads on skinny Florida kings. Tells me they have been severly underfed for long periods of time. Most of these that are starved, don't live long lives. They became fincky feeders that never recouped from being malnutritioned.
Your snake is on track and will live a healthier longer live in a box.....
which may not be a good thing either ..depending on how you look at it.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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do you say that a snake that isn't fed as much as you can fit won't live as long. Where can I read about that?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
do you say that a snake that isn't fed as much as you can fit won't live as long. Where can I read about that?
I don't know if you can read about it anywhere. Just my experinces in my collection and in others as well. This is what i have been observing for over 40 years and I thought it was just common knowledge.
BTW, Adults that are lone pets can become fat. I never stated that lone adults should be fed it "as much as it will fit". However I do think that for growing kingsnakes and kingsnakes that are double clutching should be fed as much and as often as they want to eat
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www.Bluerosy.com
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I was just curious if there was a book that I didn't have. I like to learn as much and as many different things as possible. Regardless of what some may think.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
>>I was just curious if there was a book that I didn't have. I like to learn as much and as many different things as possible. Regardless of what some may think.
i keep telling rainer to write a book about his practices. i think it will turn the hobby upside down. not only with how the animals are cared for, but new equipment, cages, ideas to bring life to the forums, $$$, all stuff rainer has no interest in.
(rainer, you know i am joking.)
seriously though the last time there were any new books on herpetoculture was the mid 90's. something new needs to come along to breathe some life in here. aside from a new morph. if books are outdated then an e-book, monthly newsletter, magna carta, declaration of independence, something...
peace,
daveb
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)
He already wrote the book like 50 times on here in the last couple months.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
ROTFLMAO!
Actually i havn't. Just like FR some I am doing for people to figure out and THINK for yourselves. This is better for them and the hobby in the long run.
It is kinda like field collecting. Most of the answers on where/how to find certain species of snakes are right there in the old field herping guides. Little hints and elevations, what habitat to look for etc. Just most opeople are to lazy to think.
..but to take someone out in the field and show him where to go and what to flip. That is just wrong for so many reasons.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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That will be the book. First page, figure it out on your own. Fin.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
its also my longterm experience that the fastest growing neonates do the best longterm. That is, life the best life.
Its very true that many longevity records are set with MALES, that are fed a few times a year, never grow to full size and live for decades. The word LIVE is used very loosely here. As they have a heartbeat, but do not live.
To live is to particapate in lifes events, not have a heartbeat and do nothing, not even grow up.
So yet again I agree with Bluerosy, only this time I have one little difference, That animal is slightly fat or overweight. Not obese or unhealthy, but a little thick for its lenght.
If that same animal was given a hotter warm area, then it would grow long and thin, then bulk up when it reaches sexual maturity.
That's just more hearsay. Do you have studies and pictures? Maybe a PowerPoint. I need to see some published articles on the subject or I don't believe it and it's just your opinions. Not facts. Right? It's good to post your opinions though, that's what gets me thinking. I'm of course messing you.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
A Power Point presentation by an expensive consulting firm in a very nice conference room in an expensive hotel!! LOL!
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Genesis 1:1
Hi Gerard,
I know your messing around but,
This is very serious, you bring the point up of reading material. Its important to understand, reading anything when its to be applied is only hearsay. The proof is not in the writing, but the results your very own animals express.
Which is why this forum is a million times better then any book. Here you can start and gain more and more insight as you go along, a book cannot do that for you.
All books are very very general, if not, they would not sell. They have to cover a wide market.
Good luck
HA HA. My dad used to beleive everything he read in the newpaper. Back then it was supposed to be infallible..or so people thought.
But I must say the general public was more educated on issues and govenrment. Today everyone follows the guy who has the most charisma on television * cough* ..* Obama*. Or the one who write the most eloquently.
My grammaer and spelling is so bad it might as well be encripted. But really I don't see jack and am to lazy to put on glasses. That and I don't really care if someone complains..LOL!@
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www.Bluerosy.com
]
You only made two mistakes. You put everyone instead of you and Obama instead of Frank.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
I totally agree with you. That was a complete joke. I actually listen to what everyone says and pick what helps my situation. I mess around but I work with a lot of turtles that are either hard or very hard to breed. Most of them I haven't been successful, YET! I listen to what people say about their kings here. I have read countless things you have said about nesting and I apply alot of that to what I do. I love this forum. I just hate hybrids and unnatural intergrades. I think it is the worst thing that happens. As far as us I enjoy arguing with people that know stuff I don't. Thats how you learn and we might as well have fun while we do it.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Its important to understand, reading anything when its to be applied is only hearsay. The proof is not in the writing, but the results your very own animals express.
Which is why this forum is a million times better then any book. Here you can start and gain more and more insight as you go along, a book cannot do that for you.
All books are very very general, if not, they would not sell. They have to cover a wide market.
That is so true!
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if snakes in a given locale are less fat and/or skinny they will eventually languish from that locale because the competion for food to reproduce along with being starved for a couple season is a way that nature culls the population.
It makes perfect sense to me that a starved snakes (whether Wild Caught or Captive born)will not do as well or live as strong or healthy life. whereas a snakes that has lots of food and caloiers that are supported by rain -which adds to more prey /dood equals more reproduction and that means success.
I think anyone who has kept many different snakes over a period of time can attest to the skinny adults they may have acquired in the field or from another CB collection. That those snakes STAY finicky, skip meals and just never recoup. Those snakes end up dying (in captivity)or succumbing to some deaseas or eventually gets so weak they just stop feeding even though they grew and survived for a few years. Same thing with wild snakes. Once they hit s certain point of lengthy starvation diets they stop reproduction even if food is avliable. I have found kings like this over a few seasons and they never looked fit enough to reproduce. matter of fact they were real lethergic and never moved much to different spots.
I think this 'intial survival" is much like any young reptile. They can go strong for the first 3-4 years and then languish and die. I used to see it with thousands of iguana hatchlings. They do not get the proper husbandry and diet yet still survice to a certain point (size) and then die only after 5-6 years of age.
I think the bodybuilding diet approach to captives is the best way to keep them strong and healthy and to live long lives- Meaning lots of protien and vitamins makes for a better more viril-"prolific" for snakes and for humans.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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I think it's better to feed them a variety of food items. I feed my kings anoles, frogs, snakes, chicks and rodents. Just feeding rodents alone makes no sense. Its just easier for you. Snakes and lizards are very lean. What do you think they eat in the wild. I bet my kings have more muscle than yours do. Just like King Cobras. If you feed them rodents only they get fat and lethargic. Tom Crutchfield told me that the first day I work for him and he proved it to me time after time. After that I went with his way and the results are crazy.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
That is total BS and old fashioned. Nutrition is the key, not what package it comes in.
Rodents have proven a billion times over to be one of the best single sources of nutrition with colubrid snakes.
As mentioned here OVER AND OVER, the ability to utilize nutrition is totally dependant on conditions. In nature, snakes can utilize any temp they need. As its ALWAYS hotter and cooler then there actual requirements.
No offense, About Tom C, I really like him and consider him a friend, but he was never known as a inovative keeper by his peers. That is, if he lived in the north or any place other then S. Fla. he would not breed anything. He is smart enough to stay living where the local enviornment does the work.
So using Tom as a teacher is not such a good thing. Again, I think the world of him(in some ways, not so much in others)
You should understand, the method you keep them is not the base, Fat snakes is based on metabolism, not intake, unless your feeding them donuts.
In nature there are bulky snakes and thin snakes and everywhere in between. But as someone who watches wild snakes reproduce(observe breeding colonies) Its the bulky or Fat individuals with the most consistant success.
The problem is, you cannot compare wild "Fat" snakes to most captive fat snakes. In nature, they have the right temps when needed. In captivity, thats not so. In the vast majority of the cases, overweight snakes are based on not getting the right temps and not diet.
I think , rodents are just easier to get. I don't have a problem catching food for mine. I buy rodents too, but I like to give them variety. I should have said that it works well for me. You are right about Tom and his breeding efforts. He and I don't talk anymore. I did learn a lot working there. I got to meet some amazing people that would visit and would get to take them out hunting. I learned so much from some of those people. It was a good experience with a sad ending.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Yes, your right about the Temps being the key factor. I keep Emerald Tree Boas and they are super sensitive to temps, air flow and food intake. I love these snake because they have helped me understand just how important environment is. With them air flow, low amounts of food and cooler temps are the key. Fun snakes to work with.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"In the vast majority of the cases, overweight snakes are based on not getting the right temps and not diet"
What an absolute CROCK!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
Wells lets not generalize here. Ive gotten thin Kings from people and they have pumped right up. More times than not its due to lack of food or care. In the wild skinny animals generally are suffering from parasites or poisoning from pesticides or fertilizer etc...If its parasites and they arent too far gone then they can be treated and bounce back sometimes.
Lu
Lu,
I am speaking specifically about kingsnakes with big heads and small bodies. That what i initially said.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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Are you guys not relly gonna take showers together are you?!
Hahahahahahahaha!!!! Ur killin' me man; both of you for that matter!!!!!
Geez I can't wait to get to the lounge one of these years at Daytona, with both of you there.
with a bottle of scotch. I'm not talking about bonding though.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
James Bond.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Blue in my opinion that snake is fat which indicates its being fed more than it needs for the environment its kept in.
The key to heavy feeding is the proper environment. Given the proper environment heavy feeding = accelerated growth. In the wrong environment it = fat snake. In my experience fat snakes do not do as well as those with weights that more closely approximate what I call natural weight.
I'm not taking a swing here at the power feeding regimen ( I'll save that for latter) but there is a right and wrong way to go about it.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Tony you ever eat out for dinner late and your stomach extends. You know when you tell your wife/girlfirend later on you are bloated. LOL!
I think you are confused with that Florida king being fat verses well fed. I don't see that snake as having fat deposits . Rather he is just stuffed. i bet if the pic was taken a few days later it would look less puffy.
I just have seen a lot of florida kings and that one ain't obeses.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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one small point is..."how do YOU want your snake to look?"....I mean, that look may be fine for a captive bred animal but I bet you haven't seen a wild one like it. Wild animals are hardly anything like our cb animals, though, right?
So it is up to you, the keeper to decide....
In my experience the leaner (as opposed to "stuffed" females have the fewest problems at egg time.....but that's ME and I like it that way.....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
In my experience the leaner (as opposed to "stuffed" females have the fewest problems at egg time.....but that's ME and I like it that way.....
Well let me ask you a question Mark. Do you wait until your snakes are a certain breeding size. Or do you breed them small and at 9 mos to 2 yrs.
I get te best clucthes out of young females or females that are kept communally so they can triple. That keeps them from getting fat. Actually there are quite lean.
The reason i ask is when females get bigger and you are not double or triple clutching them, they can get fat. I think the egg problems come only from the older snakes. My guess is when they reach full size, they get fat deposits inside the ovum and sperm has a harder time to pass and fetilize all the eggs.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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I don't have a set rule on their size.....if they look healthy and are ovulating, AND IF I FEEL LIKE IT, I'll breed them to a male I decide on.....
I usually will not breed a fat snake with any of mine and if I have a fat snake in my collection, it was nearly always obtained in a trade or whatever. That's the only real experiences I've had with fatties...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
" Wild animals are hardly anything like our cb animals, though, right?
So it is up to you, the keeper to decide....
In my experience the leaner (as opposed to "stuffed" females have the fewest problems at egg time.....but that's ME and I like it that way..... "
You are so correct. There is a huge and wide difference between wild animals with unlimited space versus the fat captives so commonly seen unfortunately.
Leaner with good muscle tone and weight is the key, not fat and obese. Your experience relays every top breeder I know that has been successful, coupled with the reputations to prove it as well.
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Genesis 1:1
I have done a lot of field work back in the day and found that the snakes in certain locales looked leaner and others more fat due to the avlaible food in the area.
I think FR also mentioned what the season is doing that particualr year- rain, drought etc.can also effect how skinny or fat a snake gets.
This in turn, also effects the reproduction of a species in certain areas.
For a species to be successful it needs food.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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There is nothing wrong with improving upon nature.
Just in the past 30 years people are living longer healthy lives through diet, vitamins etc. Women have children at an older age at a alarming rates compared to the past. Men stay virli longer and carry a lot more muscle due to the frequent ( eating 6x per day) versus 2-3 meals per day.
Since there are no junk foods for snakes . Every mouse we give them adds more vitamins, calcium, protien ect needed to be healthier.
Maybe the fact i am 53 years old and being in great shape has something to do with my mentality on health. Of that 90% is all about diet.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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So how many mice do you eat a day? You say you produce so many clutches from each female. You have thousands of kings. What did that do to the market and where are these thousands of baby kings going?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
So how many mice do you eat a day? You say you produce so many clutches from each female. You have thousands of kings. What did that do to the market and where are these thousands of baby kings going
First: what does this have to do with the subject at hand?
Second: it is none of your business who or where i sell them to. Some overseas, Canada, ..what the heck does this have to do with healthy snakes?
Third: the post was for Billy. Not you gerard. You look pretty well fed to me. LOL!
This whole thread started with a snake pictured that was just fed a meal. A few posts down i mentioned it after mark said it was fat and the OP confirmed ithat was the case.
I wonder why so many worry about a snake that is a bit poofy from just eaten a meal and are so anl about it being fat when they (the keepers) should take better care of their own bodies. I mean look at some of you guys LOLOL! Seems likely that some of you that can't take care of yourselves pass down the frustration and take it out onto your kids, spouse, dogs, SNAKES. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com
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I was messing around. I think sensitivity must be a side affect. As far as what I eat, you wish you could eat what I eat every week. I'm not trying to win any beauty contest but I bet I could pick you up.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
I'm not trying to win any beauty contest but I bet I could pick you up.
I keep telling you Gerard. You don't have to win me over. You belong to me.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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It rubs the lotion on it skin....ha!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
cold shower right here in this thread and Ill be taking those Man Cards Rainer and Gerard.
Lu
p.s. I would prefer you guys to take that cold shower seperate as well.
Lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
I don't need anything. I don't judge people. He can feel how ever he wants just not what he wants. He doesn't need a shower he must have lost his mirror.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
You know that's going to piss Davis off so bad. Rainer is going to be up all night trying to explain that you put my name in his silhouette. How did you edit out the beard by the way?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
some of the most disturbing mental images this forum has ever sired.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
This is all Rainer coming out. More power to him. Like I said I have no issue with anyone's lifestyle choices. To each their own. I'm sure he will act a lot different in person than he does on here.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Your life burns faster.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Blinded by me, you can't see a thing....
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Just call my name cause I'll hear your scream........Master
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AKBOrS46X4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Oh yeah, I like metallica . That band is just golden in everything they did.
Mybe we can dance to it together with techno strobes to loosen you up a little>>
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www.Bluerosy.com
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Now I have to erase the visions in my head!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
I've said it before and I'll say it again...sexual tension. They love each other.
I just disagree with somethings some say. I take that back, I don't like Davis. Everyone else is ok.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Well I'm glad to hear that Gerard. I like everyone here too, and you're sense of humor is starting to grow on me. I understand you and Thomas don't like eachother, and probably never will, but hopefully you'll both just agree to disagree. Thomas is a good dude and genuinely loves reptiles, as does the rest of us...including your Master Rainer, so just take it all in stride.
Gotta go!!!!! Have a good night.
actually I think if you met Thomas in person that you tow would get along great. You two are more alike than others on this forum. Real life and the internet are very different.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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I won't like him.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
I just want you to introduce me to him.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
I will!
Like I said. You guys are more alike and have more in common than you think.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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We will see if he likes me.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
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>> but I bet I could pick you up.
if he let you....hahaha
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)
Let's me? He dreams about it.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
Yeah, in my original post, i stated that i took the pic one day after i fed him, so he does look a teeny bit more bloated than usual.
>>He's around 14 months old, 44" long, and weighs 650g. I feed him around 50g in mice every 7 days, but his head looks really small for his body. Am i overfeeding him or are his proportions part of the normal growth pattern?
>>
>>When i first got him back in November 2010:
>>
>>
>>
>>This is him now (i fed him one day before i took the pic):
>>
from that angle, yes it does look fat/overfed/etc.
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)
... about what to do with his feeding.
In terms of his environment, I don't keep him in a typical tub inside a rack. He's in a 110-qt 32x18x12 with a climbing perch, so he does have a little more room to stretch out and cruise. He is fairly active as well when not digesting his meal.
>>... about what to do with his feeding.
>>
>>In terms of his environment, I don't keep him in a typical tub inside a rack. He's in a 110-qt 32x18x12 with a climbing perch, so he does have a little more room to stretch out and cruise. He is fairly active as well when not digesting his meal.
And how is the temperature gradient?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Cool side = 75-78
Hot side = 82-86
Cool side = 75-78
Hot side = 82-86
Too bad you can't keep them in a colder room so you can get a bigger heat gradient like 65F-95F. Or even 72-90F, anything better than just an 11 degree difference would help.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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On really hot days i turn the AC on and the temp gets down to around 73, but on average i would say it's 75-78. Unfortunately, I can't leave the AC on all the time. However, i could crank up the UTH a few more notches.
Place ice packs on one end and keep replacing them! ...Just kidding, look if it's not a breeding female, or going to be, just back off the feeding a little bit. It's not rocket science. Maybe a little longer in between, or less at each sitting. Like Billy said, if you start seeing rolls of fat where the snake bends, then you have an obese snake on your hands. Right now he is still growing so he will make use of it and grow, but just keep it in check. Good luck!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
hey! don't come barging into the forum and making moderate, reasonable statements. whatever were you thinking?
What the heck was I thinking?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Actually I have seen younger snakes with fatty deposits. Even when fed sparingly. I think this is a defective herdity condition that is passed down.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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>>Actually I have seen younger snakes with fatty deposits. Even when fed sparingly. I think this is a defective herdity condition that is passed down.
If i may be serious for a moment, I agree with you, Rainer. There are LOTS of different factors that determine a snake's feeding behavior, breeding behavior, longevity, etc. There's sometimes the temptation to blame everything on the keeper. And it's true that we, as keepers, can influence feeding and breeding behavior and longevity. But we do not have 100% control, no matter how we manage temp gradients, feeding, or whatever. Consider people: Not all fat people are fat because they eat too much. People have different capacities to absorb food, to convert food to energy, to convert food to muscle. I have a bathroom scale that measures weight AND fat content AND Body Mass Index. If we all had the same numbers, there wouldn't be much of a market for a product like that. Some people grow up tall and lean, others differently. We can influence that by exercise, by diet, but we do not have total control of how we turn out, and nor do we have total control over our animals. Our task is to provide them the best conditions we can and hope they have the genetic composition to respond successfully to our efforts. I hope this explains my aversion to those who say "you gotta do it THIS way" or disparage those who don't. There are lots of ways to manage animals that will result in successful outcomes. I know this from decades of personal experience producing thousands of birds and snakes in captivity and seeing others also have excellent results with entirely different methods. Our joint efforts here to become the best herpetoculturists we can be isn't advanced by absolutism any more than that attitude enhances political progress. So lets pursue ideas but acknowledge there can be differences of opinion.
For example: If that brooks were mine, I'd cut back on the feeding regimen.
And I TOTALLY agree with that solid reasoning..
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
Good post!
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Genesis 1:1
If i may be serious for a moment, I agree with you, Rainer. There are LOTS of different factors that determine a snake's feeding behavior, breeding behavior, longevity, etc. There's sometimes the temptation to blame everything on the keeper. And it's true that we, as keepers, can influence feeding and breeding behavior and longevity
I still blame everything on the keeper. This whole thing with fat deposits being an inherent deaease is something rare and I wonder if anyone really knows much about this phenomena. It was the only snake I have owned with this problem. Maybe if i knew more back then to try something different, it would have gone away(?).
I got this hybrid adult with fatty deposits from another breeder who only fed it "fat fuzzies" . So when I tried working with her she was on regular mice but had those nasty fat deposits. I let her go for 3 months in the winter to see if they would come off. But they didn't. Eventually she died and i did a necropsy on her. I found she had fat lined depostits everywhere. I still have opictures of it and posted them here on KS forums a few yrs ago, but the moderator removed them back then because I guess (she thought) it was inapropriate.
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www.Bluerosy.com
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Again nicely said Terry... and once again I hope everyone hears what you're saying.
Gerry
.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
"hey! don't come barging into the forum and making moderate, reasonable statements. whatever were you thinking?"
LOL!!, Too funny!..
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
OH YEAH Shes prety beatiful and great and prety to and I love R.E.D. SNAKES to and love her and she is relly F.A.T. To and so keep up the prety great work and never give up trying to do things! Please post up on in here somore pitures and such A.S.A.P.! Hes the B.E.S.T. !?
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