Reptile & Amphibian Forums

just a little fun guys....

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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

Oh man, how long were they together before that happened? Are those MBK's?
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Seems like I can see a really dark stripe, but I'm not sure.
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I saw this at the 2nd day of a local show....mexican blacks....I saw it...and thought...this would be funny on the forums concerning the bonding issue....
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

They were bonding, alright. lol
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That is a perfect lesson of what "NOT" to do.

ITs what occurs when animals are NOT BONDED.

That you post that as an example of bonding is really poor and and is the kind of thing that harms progress and understanding of husbandry and the actual behavior of kingsnakes.

I've been thinking about this bonding thing for some time.

In a way its nothing new. I've had pairs that were housed separately but introduced every spring for breeding without issue but there was always issue when you introduced a new animal in the mix. IE a long proven female with your old male may not be responsive to a new one or vise versa. Sometimes the new animal to the mix is freaked out by the presence of a new animal.

Personally, I've long taken to putting pairs together outside of breeding season just to make sure that they were familiar. The idea was that you didn't want the female freaking and thus being unavailable during the critical ovulation period.

The only remaining disagreement is that sometimes during the introduction process one snake will eat the other. Its put out that this is the result of poor practices and not the innate nature of the snake. I'm just not certain its that black and white. I think in many forms and perhaps its an individual thing but there is an innate capacity for one snake to eat its mate. Proper practices can greatly reduce the risk but not eliminate it. I also think that there is a heavy reliance on power feeding to overcome the innate behavior.

Power feeding is another issue altogether but suffice it to say more food plus improper environment = fat snakes while more food plus proper environment = more eggs. Depending on many factors, including the species or the individual keepers ability or willingness to properly market the resulting offspring, more neonates may or may not be a good thing. If we're going to advocate a method of keeping that promotes increased production I think it should be done in context of an environment where for most species over production and proper placement is already an issue.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Great post Tony, thanks.

You are absolutely right, behavior is never black and white.

Its actually fairly simple, pairs rasied together and left together rarely have problems. On the otherhand, pairs that are mixed and matched, or seperated and placed together often have problems.

The degree of the problems is based on each animal and its history.

Most folks are so seperated from the reality of what these snakes really are, they have no idea how to achieve "normal" behavior in a snake. Or how does one obtain normal behavior in abnormal conditions.

Aside for all the things that can cause problems, If individual snakes are "socialized"(raised and kept with others) its much easier and encures less problems then if they are raised in solitary. That is true with all social or animals that live in groups(for those that don't like the word social with reptiles)

About weight gain, again its universal, cosume more calories then you use and you will gain weight. Not really about snakes, but they are included.

The biggest problem with snakes is, they do not feed on a schedule in nature. They consume as much as they can when prey is abundant, and fast for periods when its not. They seek heat to utilize abundant calories, and seek cool to conserve energy when prey is not available.

Again, thanks

This is exactly what I have been saying on the subject, but I was quickly ridiculed, and called a Newbie, for not knowing the proper way to BOND! I'm glad to hear more experienced people speaking up! You nailed it!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I don't really think there is as much disagreement on this as there appears to be on the surface. Frank isn't really pushing anything new. He's taken common sense a step further and given it a name. Agree with it or not it has at least fostered discussion which I think is appropriate. Sometimes you do the same thing because it works and sometimes because you've stopped thinking about new possibly better ways. The thing is we'll never know which mode we're in unless we hold these discussions.

I disagree with a lot of what is said here but I've learned a lot too.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

" That you post that as an example of bonding is really poor and and is the kind of thing that harms progress and understanding of husbandry and the actual behavior of kingsnakes. "

Actually, it shows what science has shown and known forever about kingsnakes as a whole. It does harm to the progress of the newform laziness of " ghetto herping " that is sweeping this forum due to a select few.
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Genesis 1:1

Was that not a perfect example of "the actual behavior of kingsnakes" that you just mentioned? It sure looked that way to me.

Why are you guys so darn OBSESSED with forcing this way of keeping them on everyone?. Calculated risk and potential numbers of eggs are not the main agenda for every single kingsnake owner that ever lived.

See, it is basically the same thing if I went and recommended to every single person who owns a bicycle that they should go out and do wheelies up and down the highway in rush hour traffic, then if a few happened to have some accidents, all I would have to tell them is that ..."well, geez, you guys obviously didn't do it just right like I would have done" ..LOL!!!

See, some people can do wheelies and can get enjoyment out of it, and that's fine, but it certainly isn't everybody's thing to do, and I wouldn't constantly publicly recommend to everyone that they SHOULD or NEED to do it either knowing full well that things historically can go wrong when doing this and that there can be some obvious risk involved.

Seriously, Is there not something ELSE you two can ever talk about here..............EVER????....

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Calculated risk and potential numbers of eggs are not the main agenda for every single kingsnake owner that ever lived.

I don't find any calulation of risk.

As far as egg production. That is not the only reason for bonding. I think the ensakes have far more to do rather than be regulated in isolation in a box.
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

Hey..kings being kings....who would have thought? HA HA!
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Genesis 1:1

I guess now I will have to keep posting more about this.
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

"I guess now I will have to keep posting more about this"

LOL!,....Is that even possible?
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

post a link.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Post all you want. The reputation will keep getting worse, and the laughter will stay the same.
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Genesis 1:1

You guys get to me. This bonding thing is way over rated by some of you. Just because you can find two snakes together under the same hide does not mean they are bonding. If there is a storm going on and a snake finds a hole and goes into it, and there's a prairie dog in it they will stay there together til the storm ends. During the storm they are both stressed out. But once the storm ends if the snake is hungry the prairie dog becomes a hot pocket. Do you ever see two snakes crawling side by side in the wild? I have never heard of it. During breeding season once the male is done, he slaps her on her butt and he leaves. He doesn't wait around for breakfast. So why would he at any other time. they were meant to be solitary beings. could you see two snakes going after the same prey. So please do push bonding on us like it the next best thing. BECAUSE IT'S NOT
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
1.1 High Yellow Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.2 Tangerine Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino

I try to stay open mided about most things and have tried the keeping kings/milks together thing. I have had snakes that get along fairly well, and others that do not. I currently have one pair together, my hondos. Even those HAVE to be seperated during feeding or an accident WILL happen. I know because I tried it on more than one occassion. If one finishes its meal before the other, guess what, it goes over and starts eating the other end of the other snakes meal----then starts to eat the other snakes head. I know some here have success doing this, so more power to you. I for one don't like having to seperate them every time I feed them. (yes, I tried this with several other pairs and the same thing would happen, not every time, but one time is all it takes unsupervised). I can only imagine that in the wild if two kings are after the same food item then a bad thing is going to happen. If a king comes up on another with a meal in its mouth and it is hungry, I also think something bad will happen. Just my two cents. I prefer to keep them seperate.

Joe

Thank you Tom for your post of wisdom!
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Genesis 1:1

np

Uh huh. Yeah. Suuuuuuuuuure you did. Right. We all believe you.

If you read the whole thing you will see what I was trying to say. Honestly you will see, cross my heart I did mean to say DO NOT I did I did. LOL I do not believe in bonding.
Thank-you for your time
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
1.1 High Yellow Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.2 Tangerine Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino

No, you said it. We all know you meant it. Too late now to take back. Don't sweat it man-it's cool.

believe in BONDING KINGSNAKES. Don't be ashamed of that.

I noticed you said "cross my heart", and then stopped there. Isn't there something more...like "and hope to die - if I lie, stick 20 needles in my eye"? You left that part out, so I just find your whole post, not exactly "shady", but to the contrary, very clear. I'm now more convinced than ever, that YOU ARE A CLOSET SNAKE BONDER.

Don't even try to deny it.

Come out of the closet already. You'll feel so much better if you just be true to yourself, and your snakes.

I must convince everyone that I truely am a genius! My bonding technique will revolutionize the WORLD.....Ah ha ha ha!

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

HAHAA!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Its not about kings being kings.

Kingsnakes live with other kings in nature and do not eat them. Yet they will eat kings. I see how that confuses you.

King Cobras like with other king cobras, yet also eat cobras, all snake eating species, live with certain individuals and don't eat them, hmmmmmm why.

This is the question.

THe FACT, that some folks have no problem keeping kingsnakes in pairs and groups, and others cannot, is the same. Some individuals are included and others are consumed. WHY?

You see, that is the point.

In nature, snakes do not crawl around and copulate a female if she is cycling and eat her if she is not. In most cases, they attend eachother for months. And they live in the same general area. So if one wanted to find the other and eat it, they could.

Again, if kings ate their offspring, why is there baby kings, as the adults know where the eggs are. heck why don't they eat their own eggs, that way you would not have to chase your offspring down to consume them.

Yes, I am making fun out of this, but its true.

The very point is, kings recognize some individuals are part of their group, and all other kings are just other snakes to be consumed.

This goofy thing we call a bond is what prevents them from eating the snakes they must mate with. Or eating the neonates that will replace them in the population.

In nature there is no one to flip a rock and find a female, then flip a rock far enough away so they have not ate eachother yet. Then put them in something until they mate, then seperate them so they do not eat eachother. nope, no ones doing that.

No one is arguing that kingsnakes will not eat eachother. They will if they think that kingsnake is a prey item.

So what makes them think another kingsnake is not a prey item? That is the point.

That many people practice keeping kingsnakes together year a round proves that is possible. That some folks have their kings eat eachother proves that you can do it wrong.

The point is, its very easy and very reliable to acclimate kings to other kings so they can live together. heck, I even feed them together without problem.

So, I ask, why do you folks have to keep your kings seperate and feed them seperately? You see, that is a mystery to me. Cheers

I do it without any problems.

I have a question. I just this year started keeping accurate records of LTT I find in the field so I will not know the answer for a while. So here goes. In nature when a male deer is born he is raised by his mother the first year. The second year he is ran out of the herd by his mother to start a new somewhere else. They do this so there is less interbreeding. When the deer population in an area gets too high or there is interbreeding certain traits seem to appear more often. (piebald for one). With snakes would it not make sense for the males to have to leave and find a new home range when they become sexually mature? I know Ric Staub has records for his zonata site and I wonder if he can answer this. Frank, do you know? I wonder because this would have to affect the dynamic of a bonded group, with new males entering the group every year.

" That many people practice keeping kingsnakes together year a round proves that is possible. That some folks have their kings eat eachother proves that you can do it wrong. "

Oh, in this life, anything is possible.

See...and the very fact you say, " you can do it wrong " completely nullifies all of your theories about bonding and promoting " ghetto herping. " You saying that still says that kings CAN and WILL eat each other.

Do boas, pythons, and other snakes that are not known to cannibalize have the same characteristics as kings do, like eating other snakes on a normal basis? Nope.

See..nothing you can say, including the lack of anything scientific you even have to back it up, changes the fact that kings are kings. This is not about anyone winning an argument, or who is right or wrong. The kings are telling you, they will eat snakes and eat each other. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You are always saying, " listen to the snakes " right?

Nothing else needs to be said.
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Genesis 1:1

D I N G D O N G

cant see the forest cuz all the DAMN trees are in the way!
lmao.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"No one is arguing that kingsnakes will not eat eachother. They will if they think that kingsnake is a prey item.

So what makes them think another kingsnake is not a prey item? That is the point."

FR
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www.Bluerosy.com

]

Snakes have triggers that set them into "modes"! These "Modes" are to name a few, Feeding, Defense, Panic, and Breeding! When a snake encounters another snake in the wild, and the feremones are present, it will trigger the snakes into Breeding mode! That's why males go off feed, many times, because they are not in feed mode! However if they encounter a snake in the wild, and those feremones are not present, and the snake hasn't eaten in a while, guess what "Mode" will be triggered? One may go into feeding mode, while the other may go into Panic mode! I don't believe I even have to explain this? It's not because of the goofy thing called "Bonding"!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Um, Billy, I used to keep different kinds of Pythons together back before you were born and I had to pull them apart more than once as the one who finished its rat first went after the other. Great fun with an 8 ft. Retic. with an 8 ft. African Rock. Like Tony I like discussions (even with the petty bickering!!!!) that result in education. And Billy, you are so eloquent about the powers of Science. Do you use the same criteria in your Christianity???? Just wonderin"!

Pat,

If you read my post carefully, what I said was this:

" Do boas, pythons, and other snakes that are not known to cannibalize have the same characteristics as kings do, like eating other snakes on a normal basis? Nope. "

The same characteristics meaning 'eating snakes like kings do on a normal basis.'

Boas and pythons usually do not have other snakes as part of their diet in nature, as you know. What you were experiencing when you kept your pythons together was the natural feeding response of pythons getting all excited in their feeding frenzies, and the responsibility of separating them when they were going thru accident mode, such as you described. Another reason why caging snakes together can be difficult.

All of that you described in your post was and is not what I was talking about with my comments.
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Genesis 1:1

It seemes to me that the topic revolves around snake eating types of snakes. Boas and Pythons are not. What you describe is accidental or the ignorance of the keeper.
theOLDherper
Pete

I think some are driven to psychotic actions, don't you?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Frank,

I've read so many of these bonding posts that the redundancy is sickening. I'm not going to post how I feel, instead I simply wanted to respond to something you said. You said:

"Again, if kings ate their offspring, why is there baby kings, as the adults know where the eggs are"

Here in california, at least in the Northern CA, it is truly RARE to find a hatchling lying next to an adult. Furthermore, we generally find adults first, and then the hatchlings after the adults have dispersed. One of the best hypotheses to explain the dichotomy in temporal activity is that a large adult will slurp up a baby like a greasy spaghetti noodle. In my twenty-plus years of flipping CA kings I can only think of two times where I've ever flipped a baby under the same cover item as an adult, but I've flipped many items with multiple adults under them. I believe adult kings will absolutely eat baby kings, as they are opportunistic feeders and I don't think any type of active kin selection is occurring in Cal kings.

Mitch

Surely that's the most personal type of bonding possible . . . LOL

They look like juveniles. Who keeps baby kings together and is surprised by this happening?

Sh1t for brains.

lol you said it perfectly Micah! haha put that red ghost with that solid red snake and see what happens!
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

That picture was a joke...nothing more...I posted it as a joke.....I personally do not believe in bonding...but when I saw it at the show...I couldnt help but take the picture...I wanted to post it in this forum....the guy even told me its a buy 1 get 1 free....
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Michael Enriquez

Enriquez Reptiles

The pic though fortunately just shows what kingsnakes are scientifcally known for, and then it leads to the unfortunate tall tales many are known for on this forum as well.
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Genesis 1:1

Apparently you can't joke about that stuff around here. Lesson learned to the owner, just like I've learned my lesson with juveniles.
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Now that's funny!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>just a little fun guys....
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>>Michael Enriquez
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>> Enriquez Reptiles
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com