Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My rodent supplier has started offering day old chicks at great prices. I got a bag last time just to check them out, and my monitors really seem to like them. I was wondering if anyone here if they contain as much nutrition as a mouse? I would love to start feeding these more but do not want to risk any of my monitors health just to save a few bucks.

They don't, not even close. good luck

Dum question here:
So are day old chiks suitable food items for monitors?

Thanks FR thats great to know. I figured that was the answer but wasn't sure. and @leo_solis are you saying you are asking a dumb question or my question is dumb? When it comes to the health of your monitor, I feel like no question is a dumb question. Whats really dumb is just not asking because "You should know that."

Also, you can feed chicks here and there, it will just slow down the monitors progress a little bit. But thats Ok. ITs not about the fastest a animal grows.

In fact, I may go out and get me some chicks for the fun of it. Chicks for the monitors. hahahahahahahaha

Why aren't chicks as nutritious? I always figured they were more lean. Is it a lack in calcium, or proteins, or...?

Its not about figuring or thinking or guessing. My recomendations are based of results.

Many people here base what they do on what they think and that is based on a diet for people.

Your comment was, chicks are lean. Which for us is good, we eat way way way to much fat and as a result have a high percentage of obese indiviiduals.

Monitors do not live in a world of donuts and processed foods. In their case, fat is a good thing. But then I am guessing at why mice work better. They just work better is really the answer.

Then again, if your goal is not growth and reproduction, combined with longevity, they feed chicks.

Again, they are not harmful, so include some if you like. Cheers

Well I certainly was not implying that, and wouldn't tell anyone anything based off of results of my own. Also lets go back and take in to consideration that fact that a portion of monitors are extremely obese and inactive. Is that from over feeding, or from a diet that is just plain not working? I feed my savannah monitors purely invertebrate prey, both are very healthy and active. As for chickens, I've never fed them to my monitors because they are usually fed accordingly to what a human body would be able to process. I think that has a bit to do with it as well, because the nutrients in the feeders are directly affected by what they themselves are fed. But by no means would I compare a monitor's diet to a human's diet.

The actual problem is, people have no concept they are working with reptiles. They somehow thing they are working with mammals.

Reptiles are not mammals, I know that sounds dumb, but its true. Reptiles do not have a consistant body temps, which means they do not have a set metabolism either.

In nature on our field site. The reptiles spend 99% of their lifes mirco managing their temps. They are constantly moving to increase or decrease their body temps, DEPENDING ON NEED.

In captivity, most folks do not give them an option. Normally petshop keepers(sorry folks) keep them barely warm enough to feed and not hot enough to expend energy. So they store most energy consumed into FAT. Which is a normal natural part of their life. But its only a part in nature, the some other parts of their life is to expand energy, through growth, reproduction, etc. Or the simple increasing of their metabolism to enable them to move around.

These obese individuals are a product of conserving energy. PERIOD. It has little to do with actual diet. That is, unless your feeding donuts or candy bars.

Get it. Whole natural foods is what they normally consume. With that in mind, its all about energy spent. and most do not allow that.

And its not about exercise. Its simply base metabolism that is the culprit.

About exercise, its a factor but only a very small factor. You know, like fine tuning.

one reason we recomend deep substrate for varanids is, its like an exercise wheel for rodents. They dig, and dig somemore, etc. About the only method of continued exercise, IN A CAGE. In my experience, thats not the base problem.

You could keep them in a giant cage and they would still get obese when their metabolism never reaches normal.

Just think what it would be like if your body temps never went above 90F.

The problem is, many folks want to blame something they cannot control, that way, they take no blame. The truth is, you can control obesity, and they are to blame.

Me recomendation is, if you cannot take blame, do not keep living animals. Because if they are in our cages, WE ARE TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING THAT happens when they are in our cages. Cheers, End of mini rant number 703451

The reason that Savannah monitors have the capabilities to store such high amounts of fat in their bodies is because they gorge themselves in the wild so as to be able to go months at a time without feeding. In most cases, people don't send their Savannahs through a brumation period because the general idea behind it in most species is breeding, and Savannahs are not bred captively successfully. So if they are fed high fat diets, and they have these fats storages that aren't getting burned off in months of drought, they simply remain obese. I personally feed invertabrate diets, dusted with viatamins every feeding so as to make up for any calcium loss, and send my Savannahs through a brumation period over three months. Diet aside, I do agree that a lot of the issue has to do with the ability to metabolize what they are fed, and I do agree that it is generally the keeper's fault for the monitors obesity. I do also agree that over feeding is another common issue. I think that maybe the diet should be based off of husbandry of the keeper. Just food for thought mate.

You make a whole lot of assumptions. Like brumation is for breeding. I have bred many many species of varanids and none required brumation. Period.

All reptiles require a range of temps to properly utilize energy. That is, conserve when necessary and expend when necessary.

Varanids in particular are HOT loving reptiles, like Uromastics are precieved. But more so.

People do not bred Savs because they are not worth the mice to feed them. Sorry, but true. They are great monitors, as good as any, but they are imported at less then 5 bucks each. Thats a weeks food for one Sav fed properly.

In order to establish cause and effect, you must start with a baseline. Which is where you and others go wrong. You do not know that it takes to keep varanids healthy.

Heres why, you think breeding is something special, when in fact, its the least special. Its the bottom line for normal health. A normal monitor produces babies. A really healthy monitor produces lots and lots of babies.

In nature, any thing less then producing offspring is considered total failure and leads to extintion. Of a dying population.

What people belief and what people DO seem to be two different things. If folks think brumation causes reproduction, why aren't there tons of baby savs about? You sir are required to answer that.

I am not trying to put you down or show you in poor lite. But you have no concept what it takes to produce varanids. Your using hearsay as fact.

Once you understand the base temp range to allow varanids to be successful. That is, to grow up efficiently and reproduce normally. Then and only then can you think about over feeding.

When kept in conditions that support growth and reproduction, its very very difficult to over feed varanids.

But of course there are a few notable exceptions and that is post reproductive males and rarely post reproductive females. Because they have no direction in which to use energy, then control of their diet can become necessary, BUT THIS IS RARE. And its not the problem your looking at.

What your looking at is chronic under metabolized monitors. That is, individuals that cannot expend energy because the temps do not allow it.

the problem is, in order to understand what normal is, you must first achieve normal. which by and large is totally avoided in the pet monitor world. You must also set a realistic baseline as normal. For most of you, your goals for success is your monitor lives until tomorrow. Thats not very realistic.

I installed the term, to achive normal life events. Like, growth, reproduction, longevity. Not one without the other. of course, there is plenty of room to exceed that. Rant #2

Actually, I didn't "assume" anything. What I say is based off of experience. Brumation isn't JUST for breeding. Brumation is to make as close an assimilation to what the lizard would experience in the wild as possible, and that is why, GENERALLY speaking, that brumation is required or at least preferred in the breeding or success in any healthy reptile. They have adapted to living to a certain way of life, and while I know there is only so much you can do to reconstruct that in captivity, since we are going to keep the monitor lizards, it is our absolute responsibility to do the best for them. Brumation doesn't just cause reproduction, it relays what a lizard would experience in the wild, BECAUSE typically the lizards come out of a season of inactivity to breed in the wild. It was once said on this forum that the fact that we can't breed the Savannah monitors in captivity likely proves that we are doing something wrong(or it's the fact that most of us wouldn't go out of the way to construct a termite mound, where the eggs are generally laid in the wild). AND IF that is the case, then there is something in your schedule that just isn't kickin' it for the monitors. I'm not assuming you've tried to breed, but I am assuming that most people that have attempted to breed are caring for their monitors very similar to the way you do, because they just look online for the first guide to raising monitors IN GENERAL without taking in to consideration that there is some specialization among species. Now, earlier you seemed to insinuate that the cause of obesity in monitors has to do with over feeding. I know there are plenty of monitor keepers that retain high enough temps for their monitors and still have obese monitors. By saying "very difficult", are we about to start talking about donuts again? My point is simply so - if we had the perfect formula for raising Savannah monitors in captivity, would we not have captive bred Savannahs? YOU'RE the one who needs to show me some p

The above is all pure rationalization by you for your lack of success.

Who gives a flying frog dung what they do in nature. The truth is, they freely grow and reproduce when supported in nature. and they do the same in captivity. That is the real analogy.

What it takes is most likely very similar as they are the exact same animals, the ones in nature and the ones in our cages.

What the above tells me is, we, those who fail with captives, have a huge misunderstanding of what they do in nature, and have conscrewed it to fit what they want to cover their failure.

Again, I have had hundreds upon hundreds of female monitors reproduce successfully, so no offense to our field information, that is far more in context then what you or they think is important in nature. As a field herper myself, I do not see much difference at all. What I do see is confusion when folks read stuff they do not understand.

Now lets use a real example, could you explain to me how a Sav, thats from the equator in africa and from low elevation would hibernate??????????? Its from a super hot part of the world, hmmmmmmmmmm and you want? want to treat it like a corn snake. Hmmmmmmmmm I would rethink that if I were you. Please answer.

As for temperature, that is something I can produce and recreate. Explain to me how elevation so dramatically effects hibernation? Because I've never read anything of the sorts pertaining to a monitor. There are different elevations for all sorts of the exotic animals presently captive bred, I couldn't even begin to slur them off to you.

First try and answer my question, why would a monitor that lives at low elevation, on the friggin equator, hibernate???? Cause thats where Savs occur. Right near the equator.

Answer that?

P.s. elevation, each thousand feet up, drops 3 to 6 degrees.

Why don't you try explaining why elevation would have such a drastic effect on a monitor's likelihood to hibernate? I've just never heard anything like that.

Why is there snow on Mt. Kilimenjaro? You can't do some research and answer that yourself?

Alright, well this conversation clearly lacks the debatable and educational value I expected it to hold. I brought up a valid theory that you still haven't said anything to me as to why any of it is wrong, and your response is to simply negate any possibility of the fact that you're wrong, and many herpers are wrong, as they have been so many times in the past. Thanks anyways though.

duck and cover!

roof of captive bred monitors, because you are the one saying that we have what it takes, we just have to meet their requirements for a well sped metabolism.
If anyone is assuming things here, it is you. You assume that I have unhealthy monitors and don't care for my monitors, and you assume that I'm not doing what I do
with the health of my monitor taken in to consideration. I don't expect my monitors to die any second, there's no reason for it when they are muscular and active. I agree with
you that temps are a common issue with newbies, but I can assure you it isn't an issue in my case. Now, what is it that you find to be wrong with an insectivorous diet? I know that it
is difficult to find two foot milipedes and scorpians and five pound snails to feed our monitors, but that's not to say that there aren't options if the effort is put in to it.
How is what I'm saying something fairly accusable as "heresay"? What else have I "assumed"? I think you're being short sighted honestly.

I am not assuming anything. I did not know it was about you. I think you made it about you.

I simply stated, before you can judge a diet, YOU and others must set a realistic baseline of what is normal. And to reproducce IS NORMAL.

Its also not about monitors. If you fed your dog or cat a diet that was not good enough to allow that dog or cat to reproduce, you would clearly understand there is something wrong with that diet. A horse, a cow, a pig, would all be the same. What about a mouse, if what you feed them did not allow them to make babies, you would think there is something terribly wrong with that diet. So I ask, why is your or others monitors different????????

The answer is, they are not different, they are no different then any other animal. The diet must support the minimum level of success and that is to reproduce. Thats minimum with all animals.

The maximum or anything more then minimum, is expressing better then that. And there is lots of room to express better then barely being able to breed.

In most cases with captive monitors, they never acquire the energy to reproduce. PERIOD and that is not an assumption its fact.

Its also fact that once you understand what varanids require and you provide it, you cannot stop them for laying eggs.

What is horrifying is, folks like you cannot except that varanids are designed to breed, or better yet, recruit. After all, if yours or other non producing monitors were in nature, they were go extint.

The real point is, you make it personal. I ask you, stop that and look at the animal(s). If they are adult, they should lay eggs(if female) that is their normal natural design.

That you expect or rationlize otherwise is something the matter with you. As its absolutely normal for them.

If I want to make it personal, I fully realize that if one of my female varanids does not develop eggs, its my fault. Period, they are in my cages and I am the one that is responsible for taking care of them.

Lets change the subject a little. If its not food thats the problem then what is the problem. The conditions?????? So your saying your not giving them the conditions that supports what they do naturally??? Well sir, thats as bad as not feeding them a diet that supports reproduction.

The truth is, varanids do not require some trick to reproduce. Females will start laying eggs at about one half their full adult size and keep laying eggs for a very long time. And they DO NOT REQUIRE tricks like raincycle, or photoperiod manipulation, or hibernation. They simple require a decent temp range and normal humidity, and LOTS OF FOOD. The more food, the more eggs. If your not getting that, its YOU, not your monitor.

Lastly I going to get a little rude, and its not about you. I think there should a permit system to own varanids(reptiles) and there is only one question or statement on that test to get the permit. To get a permit, you should be required to be RESPONSIBLE for your animal. Period. What ever happens to it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

Now, some tiny advice, as a person(keeper) that has seen many many species reproduce in captivity and have supported that. I will tell you this. Any medium sized varanid fed an insect diet would have a very very very hard time gaining the energy required to reproduce. its not impossible, but very very unlikely. It would take as much as they could consume, each and every day. Are you going to do that? anyone going to do that? I don't think so and that is reflected by how commonly varanids are produced(laying eggs) on these pet monitor message boards.

in short, it appears people undermetabolize their captives, that is, keep them where they cannot reach normal operating temps, then restrict their diet to not allow them to build fat. Not wonder these poor animals do not live full or even half lives.

Not one more little tidbit now that you got my dander up, If you think its lack of exercise, which its not, but if you think that. Then its your stinking responsibility to give them the minimum amount of exercise to maintain a NORMAL LIFE and that includes the ability to lay eggs.

I repeat, if you kept any "other" animal in such conditions that it could not physically reproduce, you would be arrested.

If you want to make it personal, or about the people, Why do you think so little of yourself that you cannot expect these animals to reach the minimum level of success. or think so little of the animals, they you again do not expect them to do what they do normally and naturally in all manner of natural conditions, from drought to floods. Sir, you think very little of these animals and yourself. Personally, if my animals do not reach the minimum levels of health it takes to reproduce, ITS MY FAULT, I did it, I am to blame.

Lastly there is NO excuse, none what so ever. You are on the internet and the information to keep and breed varanids is and has been written on the internet for several decades. Yet, your outlook and expectations is exactly the same as when I obtained my first varanid over two decades ago. I bred them like crazy two decades ago, and I still do now. What is the matter with you. Again, when I say you, it means, those that refuse to look at the overall picture and are only/mainly concerned with how keeping reflects on them.

On a side note, I have no problem getting someones healthy fat monitor and getting eggs out of it. But its not so easy to get eggs out of a chronically skinny monitor.

Another lastly, so from my perspective, a keeper who has seen lots and lots of success(lots of work). I see what your doing as misleading and wrong. What you do is not important. Your welcome to have undermetabolized, underfed monitors(my assumption from your words and methods) but its not alright that you think you have to teach others to do the same. Good luck, I hope you learn

First of all, this was made personal when you directly attacked me and said I do not know how to care for my monitors. I'm going to set this straight and tell you that I'm on here to better mine and other's keeping experiences. Secondly, we should keep in mind that this conversation is directed towards SAVANNAH MONITORS - V EXANTHEMATICUS. I have no doubt in your ability to breed other monitors, as you clearly have all the experience and knowledge in the world(I mean only the first part of that statement). And I do commend you on your ability to admit your wrong. That obviously isn't in your fault to be wrong. Where your fault lies is to not strive to better and correct where you have gone wrong. You say that diet has a substantial amount to do with the ability for any animal to reproduce, a clear contradiction to when you stated that the issue is more rather an under metabolized monitor than a malnourished monitor - correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I understood from your post. You have yet to tell me why an INVERTEBRATE - NOT PURELY INSECT - diet is insufficient when that is what they have reportedly fed on in the wild OTHER than the fact that the keeper is far too LAZY to procure the foods deem-ably healthy and correct for the Savannah monitor, since we agree that it is in the best for the monitor to attempt to mimic what their lives would be like in the wild, except in a box. Acquirable invertebrates can and SHOULD include everything from large aquatic mystery snails or land snails, crayfish or crab, large cockroaches, possibly even giant millipedes(though personally I've never attempted breeding them, I have heard of a few people starting to), grasshoppers, locusts, and whole bodied shrimp. Dusted with a good vitamin, there is no reason why a responsible owner shouldn't be able to provide for you evidence of a well-fed, and active monitor. Like I said, I myself feed the above exclusively to both of my Savannah monitors, and they are handsome fellows.

And FR - I do entirely agree with you that one should be required to prove they know how to care for a monitor before it is sold to them, and I do believe that the amount of monitors being exported and imported need to be decreased. I am against wild importations, which is why I'm dead set on Savannah monitors and what makes them tick. If I wanted just another "pet" or source of income, I would have bought a trio of Ackie's and had good old fun. Much less stress there. I am an animal lover I care about each and every animal in the world - as impossible as it sounds.

"since we agree that it is in the best for the monitor to attempt to mimic what their lives would be like in the wild"

Why would anybody agree to that?

If that is really your goal, you need to add predators, competition for resources, weather extremes (floods, droughts), times of abundance, and long periods without food, etc, etc, etc...

In short, life in the wild pretty much SUCKS.

Our goal is to offer them the best options to meet their needs and live a full life. That means the best food, best homes, etc.

Your cage should be like a luxury hotel for a lizard, complete with mate (or at the very least companionship), luxury suite, unlimited buffet, a gym.... the works.

Monitors in those conditions WILL lay eggs if you want them to or not.

But feeding a large monitor a cricket diet would be next to impossible, because they eat and eat and eat and eat and eat...

For a large monitor to eat that many crickets would require a LOT of crickets and the monitor would never be able to sleep.

I don't feed crickets personally. Like I said, there are other options. We're looking at a monitor that maxes out at four feet(another sign that likely shows they are meant to be fed an invertebrate diet, else I'd imagine they would grow to the larger sizes most other primarily carnivorous monitors grow). Crayfish, crabs, shrimp, larger breeds of roaches(some breeds reach the size of adult mice), large snails, millipedes... it's possible. I know because I do it myself, and would advocate the practice of an invertebrate diet any day - as long as you're willing to go the distance. And if you're insinuating I stick a hawk in an eight foot long, four foot tall cage, I'm sorry but I'm just not going to go through with that. It's not like they don't have predator-prey relationships in captivity. From the monitors perspective, we ourselves are the biggest predators they face on a day to day basis until they decide to get used to us.

Dude, a four foot sav is not a small or even medium monitor. Its mass is the same as other 5, 6, 7 foot monitors. So your lenght is not a good measuring stick.

The reality is, female savs start laying eggs about about 20 total inches, even thought they can grow to over 3 feet. I find that common with all the species I have bred.

Also your completely wrong, I am not attacking you. I am questioning your husbandry, and that is exactly what this forum is for.

The problem as I see it is, YOU take it personal, HERE WE KEEP VARANIDS, and husbandry is what is discussed. Its not about the keeper, I do not know you, and in fact, I do not care to know you. If you were my neighor I may care to know you. But here, you do not matter, what matters is your husbandry and the results you achieve from it. Or as your saying, the THEORY of your husbandry.

In my case, its no theory, I have a long proven history of generation after generation with many species. So no theory, I have actual results. Which I guess is meaningless to you.

In a sense, your attacking me. As you think your theory is superior to my decades of actuall realtime success. Hmmm that is a funny thought.

Alrighty then mate. In that case would you mind answering my post with all that aside? I would like to hear what you have to say about my monitor based statements. You can't just tell me I'm wrong without a thorough explanation. I had a lot of things for you to respond to in that post. I would like to say however, that I disagree with the idea that a healthy Savannah monitor can reach the same mass as any other healthy six foot monitor. But that doesn't really matter.

Hi masonmonitors,
I just wonder what`s "natural" about feeding crayfish, crabs and shrimps to a Savannah monitor?
I don`t understand you either when you seemed to be saying that keeping them active year-round is somehow unhealthy, because they may brumate for a few months in the wild?
As far as I`m aware, there`s absolutely NO evidence to suggest keeping any varanid species active all year is detrimental to their health (kept under optimum conditions)...
However, I DO regularly hear keepers whose animals die rather quickly, use that as an "excuse", just as they do feeding rodents; they haven`t evolved to be active year round, it will "burn them out"? And rodents will cause them to die from fatty liver etc. WHY???
I believe if they are fed much more food (energy) than they can use, and are kept undermetabolised, they could indeed suffer serious health problems, which is what`s happening thousands of times every year...

It's natural because it is a prey. You think a monitor cares if it feeds on a Blaptica Dubia or a Myriapoda Diplopoda? Why does that even matter to you? It's not like I'm advocating the use of dog food or gamy duck. And I did not say that keeping them active all year round is detrimental their health. I said that in the case of savannah monitors, they are specially adapted to storing fats in their body for the dry season, therefore a brumation period to help burn off excess fat storage may be advantageous to the Savannah monitor. Also, in case you decide to ask, the correlation I was making with a brumation period and breeding was that some monitors breed during certain seasons or a specific occurrence - water monitors for instance -breed after a certain month during the rainy season(whenever that may be, I couldn't tell you specifically off hand but if you watch the NATO special on monitors you'll see it.)

Hi again, I`m only asking questions, hoping to get some answers!
I can tell you that when varanids brumate, they lose very little weight.
Savannah monitors are active for around 8 months or so (maybe more in some parts of their range), so I ask again; why would keeping them active year round be detrimental, or on the other hand, why would it be beneficial to brumate them?
Please explain why those prey items are natural (they don`t find crayfish, crabs or shrimps in the African savannahs), but rodents are not, if that`s what you were suggesting (or maybe I misunderstood)?

I'm simply suggesting that perhaps there is another way of going about things that better fits the description of a monitor that's been characterized as "trash can" for so long. It is a specialized monitor, shown in studies that I'm sure we've all read by Daniel Bennett, that Savannah monitors prey on Arthropods, and other invertebrates solely, and are not opportunistic feeders like they've been described as. What matters is that they are invertebrates - crabs, crayfish, and shrimp - and are more obtainable than giant african land snails, and giant millipedes. Not to say that they are impossible to obtain, and I myself plan on doing so before my monitor gets full grown to establish a colony. As for now, captive bred land snails, mystery snails, cock roaches, superworms, grasshoppers, and hopefully locusts soon will do well. As for brumation, from what I've read, they gorge in order to prepare for brumation. It's less about weight loss and more about excess energy storages. I'm suggesting that maybe after years without a brumation period and storing more and more in their body, perhaps is contributes to a lethargic and obese monitor. Just a thought.

If they are kept in optimum conditions year round, they would use all the energy (food), so how would they become lethargic or obese in those circumstances?

There are plenty of people who keep them at optimum conditions, yet most Savannah monitors I see are lethargic and obese. And at that, we're still debating what are considered "optimum conditions". Especially with diet. Why do you think that a brumation period will be detrimental to a monitors health when it's part of it's natural life cycle? Why do you think feeding an invertebrate diet will lead to a malnourished Savannah monitor when their diets in the wild consist of arthropods and other invertebrates? I just don't see the logic behind it all when there have been field studies done by people who took years of college to find out the answers to these questions, yet most of us still disagree.

"Why do you think feeding an invertebrate diet will lead to a malnourished Savannah monitor when their diets in the wild consist of arthropods and other invertebrates?"

Who on earth said that?

I think it was said that mice lead to the fastest growth and process enough nutrition for reproduction.

No more. No less.

They are your lizards, do what you want.

But the people suggesting these things to you have multiple decades of experience in breeding varanids.

Personally, I listen to people who have far more experience than I.

Daniel Bennett anybody?? Went on a field study, and flushed the systems of about 200 Savannah monitors, and dissected a few as well, to find that only ONE out of two hundred had a shred of mammal remains in it. That is the answer to your question. I follow the people TRAINED and studied to know these things.

Sorry, I don`t know how to quote your reply, it`s hard to remember everything!
You say some species breed at certain times of the year, but that`s obviously because in the wild, it depends on conditions,as you say, whereas here in captivity, it SHOULD BE optimum 365 days a year. That means with our help, they could probably reproduce at any time, and live long, healthy, productive lives as a matter of course...

Of course! But that's after they've adapted to our "ideal" conditions for them. Unfortunately all the savannahs that we have are wild imported, and until then, won't likely settle for anything less than as close to the conditions their instincts are used to reacting to in the wild.

I think you`re making things quite difficult for your monitors if you believe they will not benefit from being active year round and being fed the appropriate ammounts of food, because their "instinct" is to gorge themselves and brumate! Your (our), responsibility is to provide them with the conditions that will support them at all times.
Not enough food, too high/low temps, (the reason they brumate in the wild), is not optimum. The problem seems to be that they AREN`T kept in the best of conditions in the overwhelming majority of cases, it`s realy nothing to do with their "instincts"!

I disagree with your logic. You're saying that just because they survive in the conditions we have set for them, that should be enough. I don't think it's enough to just settle for that when it's obvious that something isn't going right with keeping Savannah monitors in captivity, otherwise we should have captive bred Savannah monitors, and less dying every year at that! What I'm saying is that brumation may perhaps be necessary to keep a monitor at optimum conditions. It's shown for other reptiles, so why not Savannah monitors as well? It's just natural. At one end of the stick, I'm not going to stick an eagle in the cage with my monitor so it can feel hunted, at the other, I'm not going to feed it donuts and dog food just because it is in captivity. We need to find the perfect medium. And I'm not trying to promote any unorthodox actions to any body saying that they need to gorge their monitors and put them through a dry period to recreate the wild, I'm just saying that with enough study and trials, we can find a good medium, a less destitute drought or something, where it still puts them into a state of inactivity, but doesn't put them in any danger. But what exactly are you saying that chemically or physically is better for the monitor by running him year round, when it's natural for him to have that state of inactivity?

I think you`ve completely misunderstood what I said. Where did I suggest the conditions we keep them in are good enough, I said the complete opposite!?
If they were kept in optimum conditions, they wouldn`t be dying by the thousands every single year!!
You seem to believe that it will benefit them not to be kept active throughout the year, based solely on them brumating in the wild where conditions force them to behave that way. But if food were available, and temps etc suitable, would they still brumate (in the wild)? Personally, I don`t believe so....
Can I ask how big your monitors are just now (S/V length in particular)?

Exactly. I feel that the monitors in the wild that are healthy and strong brumate and gorge feed. As for your question on the difference between gorge feeding and brumation I don't quite understand what you're asking, or saying. Gorge feeding is when they eat up all they can so they can store up energy for the dry season, when they go into brumation, a state of inactivity for months at a time(in many cases for reptiles to prepare for breeding season). My first Savannah is almost three feet long, my other is just about a foot. My Nile is just over three feet long.

.....You own 3 monitors and you've read Daniel Bennett's book and now you are arguing with more experienced people on monitor diets. With all due respect to daniel Bennett, I am familiar with his work on both savannah monitors (through his book.) and his work with gray's monitors. his study on their diet is limited. that said it is an excellent effort and gives interesting insight into these monitors.
I made a point about this earlier in some posts (a few months back.) with a parallel argument of personal observations over a long period of time of a coyote that seemed to subsist on bugs and a neighbors left over dog food.
It is one study of one group of lizards from one part of their range. According to the charts in his book btw they eat very few snails compared to the millipedes so based on that info you might not want to feed too many of those either. I don't recall seeing very much mention of other bugs besides millipedes. Based on part of your logic you should get to work on that millipede farm. fyi savannahs don't seem to like the native ones here in fl. so don't waste your time using them. You also have still not explained where savannahs find shrimp and crabs and crayfish on the african savannah. do they go to red lobster or something? You also never answered Franks question about brumation in an equatorial area where temps and daylight cycles are going to be about the same year round.

It's not like I read one book and went off lawdy daw and bought three monitors. I took time to do my research, and varied options and opinions. While yes, his data was collected only from the Ghana regions, it is data nonetheless more than any other data that we have on Savannahs. And if you read the study on the data actually collected, orthopterans(locusts and crickets) were the primary prey food found in flushed systems of juvenile Savannahs, coleopterans(millipedes) were a much smaller percentage of the prey items found in the flushed systems and fecal matter of the Savannahs. Coleopterans were simply important because they took up the main portion of their diet during earlier winter seasons. As I said, and did answer, I doubt it matters the monitor which invertebrate it eats - whether it's blaptica dubia or some myriapod species. Therefore, if I can produce a crawdad more capably than a giant african land snail, I will do so. Crayfish are a low fat, high protein meal, good for a healthy relay of energy. As for Frank's question, I would have no idea how to answer it, because it has no relevance to the topic. Frank failed to explain to me why elevation should affect the likelihood of brumation for a Savannah monitor, when it shows no adverse affects in the ability for any other reptile to brumate. If it can be explained to me why it matters what the elevation is of California as compared to Africa, I would gladly admit I'm wrong. What about all the questions of mine that FR and other posters failed to answer? Would you care to go back through every post and answer those questions for me? This whole elevation thing really seemed like a feeble attempt to spin off what the topic was originally and more importantly about.

Higher elevations are cooler, therefore, more likely the animal/s might brumate at certain times...

For a monitor that experiences even temps throughout the year with periods of drought.Should drought(brumation) not be a part of nature that does not need to replicated.Too me there are negatives to 'natural' that don't have a place in husbandry.

Additionally, a low elevation animal near the equator does not have seasonal fluctuations, but just different levels of heat (like really hot vs. holy crap its like hell hot)... and depending on area different levels of rain.

Animals in those conditions have NO reason to brumate. If anything they hide from the blistering sun.

I'd bet a shiny nickel that was what Frank was getting at.

The thing is that they do go through a state of inactivity during the dry season. It just is. Herpers have captive bred plenty of reptiles close to the equator. Are you telling me that the Savannah monitor is different in those terms somehow?

Periods of inactivity can be caused from lack of adequate heat, escaping excessive heat, lack of resources, and I'm sure other things that I can't think of right now.

Periods of inactivity MAY happen in the wild. That doesn't make brumation necessary for the successful breeding varanids.

I don't have enough experience to feel qualified to comment on other reptiles, though I have ideas.

They adapt to a harsh environment-but do we want to replicate this in captvity is what i am saying.Captivity can never truly replicate the positives of nature,the negative not so difficult.Everybody sites The Sav book, which is fine,but note that they mention Sav's not having a large average size in captured individuals.Correct me if i am wrong but larger sizes can be attained by captive individuals, partly they don't have to endure harsh natural events.What is natural can not only achieve positive results but detrimental ones as well-this is where commonsense hopefully kicks in.

Okay so I actually pulled Bennett's book of the shelf. First off I have to wonder how closely you read or if perhaps it is a bit beyond your level of comprehension, which would be sad as Daniel seemed to write this book at a level that a third grader could read and understand it. The few things I quickly noticed while just glancing through it would be the paragraph on the top of Page 16 which correlates to the point Frank was trying to make about brumation and latitude and elevation that you fail to see especially when you think they actually brumate. some of the diet info is a bit different than I remember but not much. I reference to the lower pie chart on page 20, are amphibians some sort of new invertebrate I was not aware of? what about the lizard eggs in the chart on page 21? does it depend on what stage of development the eggs are in as to whether or not they are considered invertebrates? You know the more I look at those charts the more savannahs look like opportunistic predators/scavengers that eat whatever they can catch or find which is what we have been trying to tell you here all along. On that note I would like to point out the section on pages 58 and 59 where even daniel Bennett dosen't seem to have a problem with feeding rodents to savannahs but seems to have a dilemma with whether or not to feed live or dead. As I was looking through this book which is incredibly easy to read I notice that a lot of the husbandry advice on here is amazingly similar to what frank and others have been saying for years. Almost to the point that I wonder if he silently co-authored the book.
One final thing I would like to mention from your posts btw is your mention of African land snails, you mention it would be difficult to raise them. It is not difficult to raise any kind of snail but it is highly illegal on the federal level to raise African land snails. any USDA agent will freely volunteer that info if you are foolish enough to ask them.

Look mate, I don't need you calling me stupid. That's not what we're on here for last I checked. I got my references in this case off of his preliminary data, I'll include the link. It's based primarily off of Juvenile Savannahs, which up until recently is what I've been feeding. As for the land snails, I know they are easy to breed. I breed my own snails. I said they are difficult to get a hold of because, as you stated and most of us already know, they are illegal in the states because they are such prolific breeders in the first place.

http://library.mampam.com/bennett2000dietofvaranusexanthematicus.pdf

I really don`t understand what you`re trying to say? [Quote]"Monitors in the wild that are healthly, gorge feed and brumate" {Enquote].
How is gorge feeding and brumating (in itself), making wild Savannah monitors healthy, when they are "forced" to live that way because of adverse conditions at certain times?
I ask again; if they receive the same total ammount of food over a 12 month period without brumation or gorging, why would that be unhealthy for them in captivity?
Who told you brumation is necessary for successfully breeding captive Savannah monitors kept under optimuum conditions year-round?
The 3 ft long should be sexually mature, do you know if it`s male or female?

Please explain this to me: What`s the difference (health wise), between an animal having to "gorge feed" and brumate in the wild because the conditions dictate that, and an animal in captivity kept under optimum conditions, if the total ammount of food is the same (but no need to gorge or brumate)?

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was referring to my own question

ha no worries.