Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I currently have 1 colony with 1.2 and soon will have two with 1.2. They are in my living room at the moment. And even with regular cleanings at about every 5 days the odor is starting to get a little worse than I would like. I am thinking of moving them to my garage which is insulated, but not heated. With bedding and 3 rats to a tub could they survive temps with lows in the high teens and highs in the high twenties or will I need to supplement their heat? If so what's about the lowest temp they could withstand?
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You might as well house them in a deep freezer, it would be warmer than that.

That's why I'm asking. But a deep freezer is generally 0 degrees I was thinking that 20 degrees outside and then insulation in the garage and bedding they might be able to handle the temps. What temps should I be looking for on the low side of things. I know rats generally like it cooler anyway and with three to a tub is 32 to 40 degrees ambient temp ok? Obviously I know I can't freeze them, but with them huddled up producing it I would think they could handle pretty cold temps. Does anyone know what those temps are? Im thinking about my neighbors who leave their dog outside all winter with nothing more than a box with hay. Wouldnt this be along the same principle with and additional structure blocking wind and cold around the dog box?
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Honestly...I wouldn't keep them in less than 60 degrees F.
They are not ALWAYS on the pinkies, and pinkies can die real easy from cold.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

Good call. That I didn't really consider. I wonder how much my electric bill will go up running a rad heater 24/7 all winter
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dogs should NOT be outside in the cold cold...
or in the Heat of summer....people who do that suck bigtime...

as for rats...the water bottle will freeze and the tanks will sweat....the bdding will get wet and they will be sick or die and stink like all hello anyways...even if you had bigger tanks with 1.6 to a tank and like 2000 in your garage...you still may need a heater in there for ambient tamps to be higher for them to be comfortable...

they like the same temps you like...65 to 75....

...have fun....buy rats somewhere else as you need them...the smell does not ever get any better....

...
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........JY

Big difference between dogs and rats. Dogs are not wild. Dogs were bred and changed by humans. Some cant even breed without help. We do have some beeds that are bred to be in the cold weather. Sled dogs for instance think they are dieing in temps above freezing. They are most happy sleeping in the snow. Norway rats live almost everywhere..these are the ones we use as feeders. Now if you have ASFs they are not native and I bring them in when its cold...but when its hot, they love it! Sorry you dont like it, but I havent had one die yet. Infact they are healthier than any I have purchased at a pet store. Which was the reason I started breeding my own.

I bred everything...

in fact ..I just killed off over 2000 breeders last week...after 20 years ...I quit....

...you breed rats outside...BUT YOU USE HEAT PADS UNER EACH ONE....

doesn't count as outside if you keep them all warm and toasty...

if people kept dogs with heat pads...I wouldn't moan about them being so stupid s often.....dogs are thnking animals....

and sled dogs are run everyday for miles and miles....and fed special diets in winter and summer...different diets each time of year for their needs........try feeding a Chihuahua all seal meat....

.....Aye' .....Chihuahua....

........
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........JY

Again you didnt read the whole post..heat pads are only used in temps 20 and under

doesn't matter if it's 70 out would it????
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........JY

I need them frozen before I can store them for winter!

That doesn't even make since why would you use heat if it's seventy out. I think your getting too busy trying to prove a point that doesn't need proven and trying to offend people that doent need to be offended rather than just letting people teach and others learn and letting everything be ok
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It wouldnt matter what you fed a chi, they still would die in the snow if a rat didnt gettem first

I have always kept mine outside with only a top cover for dryness..3 adults to a rubbermade tub. We do go down into the low 30s alot, but when it goes down into the 20s or teens like it did this last winter. I moved them to a small plastic tool shed NO insulation..Make sure they have plenty bedding, I also added a heat pad under the cage..they bred great with no dead babies. In the summer I have had them out in the high 90s, but we cool down into at least the low 70s every night. They need that cooling and good air flow.

So with what your saying I should be fine as long as I have a space heater to supplement around 40 degrees for really cold nights. Thank You
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easily...I just found it very easy and alot cheeper to use a heat pad for each tub

I fugure they live in the wild just fine with the temps here, as long as they can get cover, shade, good air..and a cozy place to cuddle. So far its worked great for me.

That's exactly what I figured. I know the idea is to give the animal the best living conditions as possible, but they are wild animals and your already giving them much better cover than in the wild.
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Its interesting ...when they have babies in the cold, and the parent wants to leave the nest she will cover them up with bedding. Her nest will also be bigger and deeper.

wild rats are underground...yards of dirt over them...temps underground ? 53 ,,maybe lower with air getting inside...they like buildings with heat sources due to this...wild rats...have extensive tunnels that go down to keep air out...and use alot of bedding...they also may lay around in numbers for heat...the more the merrier...warmer...body heat....and they can layer with all kinds of materials...from nature or human....

....a shed...thin walls and air flowing all around it....door not sealed...and temp inside the same as outside....

set in a closed car in winter for awhile....it gets cold...with coats on....

....sweaty cage and frozen bottles...you need heat....

...
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........JY

Hmm must not have read my post..I said air flow was important and that they are able to cool down at night. and not at temps exceeding the 90s. Thats a far cry from being sealed in a car or room of any kind.

he was asking about 20 not 90's
car was for cold ---not hot
airflow in cold is ---not--- important
the bottles will freeze without heat source
be it 50000000 rats---- or a heat pad

you are the freaking master...all hail you...

god....

keep one rat in a 50 gallon outside in the shade all winter...it will be fine.....with no water even....and a cheezy poof for food once a week...

want to talk about morons that have a rabbit in a 2 foot cage with plastic all wrapped around it all winter???...or no wrap at all...???or no straw at all...and a frozen water bottle...or a frozen metal pan with no water in it...?

PETA has alot of ammo in here this week....

Amen....

LOL......

....my rats are fine...they are solid as a rock....

........>>>>
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........JY

You have exaggerated everything...I have never had a frozen water bottle N/M

b e c a u s e -y o u -u s e -a heater....

which is what they asked 3 days ago....

.....yes...use a heater and pay 45 $ a month to raise $10 worth of rats...

makes sense to me....
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........JY

Wow dude you really dont get the picture do you. Your too focused on the argument. It would be breeding $150 work of rats and I'm trying to see if it will be cost over..... Well smell effectiveness. And you stated your opinion before all your nonsense then your statement may have made since, but I'm finding hard to believe seeing as how you've already proven your more worried about making someone look bad for putting rats outside instead of their living room. Im guessing your price figures have more to do with proving yourself right than actual facts.
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start over

Google...''Norway rat , optimum living temps''

....tadaaaa.....done

....I'm just in a mood and you both don't get it...

....you both read half what I wrote and think wrong...

..go for it....

150$ .???.....you got 6 rats bro....4 females --each month -tops...16 x 4 = 64....$40 electric..plus........plus food and time...and they take an extra week to ovulate again or more...

yep...

....
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........JY

You're calling other people morons, yet your bringing up unrealistic situations that dont exist. Everytime I've seen people do this is when they started an argument on an opinion and ran out of ammo so they start ranting towards the side of the argument they felt the most people would side with. Poor politics. Simply trying to find a way to do it. That is it. Never said I wouldnt do what it would take or do it if I couldn't do what it takes. Just simply finding out what it takes. Whose talking cheesy poofs and empty pans and all kinda other crap.
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Ok I get your point, but I'm not putting them in in un insulated shed. It's an insulated garage. And reguardless of how cold it gets outside the garage always is 10-20 warmer it's just not heated so it still varies some cold nights I'm guessing low thirties some hot summers 90s night will always be colder than day. And as far as the cages getting sweaty. I'm not using aquariums I'm using rat breeders, which have excellent airflow. I'm sorry for sounding offended, but this gets out of hand on here. Someone asks for an informative question and they get ripped on by people because they gave them an opportunity. I don't want to give my rats a miserable life, but come on look at what I'm (and 90%) of the reptile community are breeding them for. Yes they may have superior ways to bed themselves in nature. They can also get attacked by a cat in nature. I wasn't asking if anyone thought this was a cruel idea. Obviously by the nature of me asking the question is this ok it implies that I'm trying to educate myself so that I'm not going to create a cruel environment. There are people out there that would rather have their home smell like a zoo because they feel that's what would be good for the animal. And that's fine I don't judge. I feel it's just as wrong to condemn me for trying to find an alternative so that my house doesn't smell like a zoo. And it's not like I asked if I could put them in a freezer and if they'd live. I laid out what the conditions were and asked if it would work. Insulated garage extra bedding. The question was do I need supplemental heat and if so what's the min temp I need to get it up to. Let's get off our high horses here and get some facts and assume that the person asking is going to head the advice and make the best living conditions for man and animal.
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Thank you!!! I have an insulated garage now and have found a place for them in there also..our temps are generally very mild here, but we do have times it gets cold or hot. Just not for very long.

noone busted your balls...
I just told all the facts...
I just kept getting told I was wrong...for all kinds of reasons...

I have friends with 3000 cages of rodents ...and some with half that....

I just cleaned out 2000 rodents....

I've seen all kinds of garage and shed people....

go for it.....
....

...have fun....good luck....

....
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........JY

So busy complaining that people aren't reading what each other posted they can't even remember what they posted themselves... In your original post you said "With bedding and 3 rats to a tub could they survive temps with lows in the high teens and highs in the high twenties or will I need to supplement their heat?" Mr. Yohe mentioned frozen water amongst the sarcasm. You have since decided that the environment only gets to low 30's occasionally. Global warming sure is happening fast! Your garage is already 15 degrees warmer since this thread was started! In your new world frozen water might not be a problem. In your original question frozen water is a very valid concern. Personally I recommend supplemental heat through any of the methods mentioned. Also if you can get some breedstock from someone whose colony is accustomed to cold weather you'll probably have better luck. I do wish you the best of luck!
- Paul

I think it's all a moot point! Optimum breeding temps are about 60-63 degrees! Anything lower it gets pretty "dicey"! If you're talking about "high teens", forget it! You'll hate cleaning and feeding in the cold and they'll hate living in it thus bad production! You'll have to suppliment some heat, then, I don't know if it's worth it!

Thank you. That's more of what I was looking for. I didn't mean to misrepresent the question when I first asked. High teens are rare occasions typically more like high twenties in the worst part of the winter. The temps I was talking about are the outside temps. The reason I didn't want to give inside temps is because I've never actually tracked them before, but I use the room in the garage for tinkering in the winter frequently and the temps usually seem about ten degrees warmer. Which would actually put that room roughly at high twenties to high thirties. The room is already insulated well and with a small space heater can easily reach 50 in about an hour, but rarely hits 70. I guess my question was stupid because I already knew I would need some supplemental heat buyer wasn't sure of how much or how to do it in the most economical fashion. A space heater would work, but would be outrageous. I'm not sure if a rad heater would cost less to run or not, and if it came down to installing a furnace. I would easily give up the idea without regret and keep the rats inside and deal with the smell. I guess it also wasn't a great idea to even really post because it's impossible for anyone to tell exactly what my set up is. And even still couldn't possibly know cost effectiveness. I felt attacked when before I even did anything except ask a question it seemed like I was getting responses about how I was trying to kill animals. Again I was on edge and busy at work when I posted and maybe I read it all wrong. So I apologize to the community. I was just excited about my idea and was wondering if anyone else did it and at a relatively low cost. I take blame for asking the question wrong. Again thank you to everyone for your constructive help.
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So set up a shelf or 2 for your rats out there and keep them there when temps are suitable, maybe even extend the season a little by taking the chill off with electric heat of your choice. That will give you a break from the odors in the house for several months out of the year. You can bring them back in your house during the coldest months.
- Paul

The art of compromise, I thought it was lost, I guess not. Good idea. A friend moved to Georgia and can't breed rodents because of the cold until he built a nice warm insulated room. I tried to tell him to use a shed and breed while he can until the winter hits, then go back to buying during the winter until he finally finishes the room.

Instead of heating the whole garage with a space heater which will cost you more than the rats are worth, why don't you do what my friend did. Build a rack with sliding tubs surrounded by escentially a solid plywood box with a plywood door all insulated on the inside with that thin insulation wrap they sell at the harware store in rolls, it is foil on both sides with little bubbles inside like bubble wrap. Then run some strips of 11" flexwatt heat tape in the inside on the bottom and then up the sides hooked up to a thermostat, similar to how you would build and control an incubator for hatching eggs only set cooler. He also added LED rope lights inside on a timer, to give them day/night cycling. As far as the frozen water issues simply install a five gallon bucket with water lines, in the colder months put an aquarium heater in the bucket and insulate line from bucket untill inside the box, which isn't an issue inside for the rest of the lines. In the warmer months he unpluges the heat tape takes opens or removes the front door as needed and opens a window in the garage or you could keep the garage door open a foot. He has great production all year without a smelly house, so it seems to work for him.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

that's what I told you

I never attacked you

I attacked your neighbor and the other guy (a little)
$$$$$$$ go for it

the rad (radiator ? or a really cool heater ?) is more expensive than cheap ceramics but people on here will tell you the opposite...

....find a supplier near you for $1 rats....easy peezy....
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........JY

That's what started the breeding in the first place. Closest rodent breeder is 3hrs away and rodent pro charges $40 minimum shipping so 50 rats at $1.00 end up costing you roughly $95 which is almost $2 a rat and only lasts a month. Cost of rat food is way cheaper at about $30 every two months and with four rats breeding avg 12-15 a litter roughly once a month I'm good on volume. Also the savings will only increase as my collection grows. Again sorry for getting out of hand I was at work reading and responding quickly and took offense to something I probably shouldn't have. It's cool I just have to find the best way to do it.
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...garage

walls...fast walls...like...tarps....
and a $20 WalMart heater (KMart got them also...)

tadaa....hang tarps and make walls in winter...make a small room ......

I did it for making a brumation chamber every year ...for cold...not warmth....then opened window for cold source...

....you do opposite....

want permenant....2 inch styrofoam sheets....and 2 x 3's....

....permenant, permanant.....how the heck is that spelled...such an easy word....

.....
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........JY

Ok, idea.

Plastic garage rack- Home Depot- $50.
Rubbermaid bins...you could probably bit 4 of them on the rack.
A couple feet of 12" heat tape under the bins
Cheaper thermostat $50 or so, or a dimmer switch.

Set the tubs to 65F...

Profit.

It's a minor investment and the stable temps will optimize breeding. Problem solved.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

If everyone just moved to a perfect climant and resource location (near vet, food supplier, etc) you wouldn't have to worry about any of this See easy, all problems solved
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

0-1-0 Rescued Ball Python - Athena (formerly Apep)
0-0-1 Rescued Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
2-3-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Vader, Bastet, Isis, Angel
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

But they aren't "wild" animals. They are domesticated animals that have lost a lot of the tolerances and toughness they would have if they were in fact wild animals.
That's what humans breeding animals does...it changes them.

Look at a Pomeranian...then look at a wolf. Hard to believe they are technically the same species. (Well...the pomeranian, and all dogs, are considered sub-species of wolves, but you get the point.)
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

Go for it...you'll figure it out one way or the other...!!!!

.......
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........JY

Your daytime temps of high twenties doesn't let things warm up. I live in Florida, it gets in the thirties, but the next day it is 80. Once in a while it stays cold the next day. The kind of rodents will affect their ability to withstand heat and cold, and their ability to breed in heat and cold. The white lab rats do well under optimal conditions, anything unusual and they don't do as well. Get multi colored rats, I refer to them as "ghetto rats". You could also make a small room or closet with 4 foot by 8 foot pieces of 2 inch thick styrofoam, the rats body heat might do some good in a smaller space, or your heater won't have to work as hard. We use flexwatt for snake cages, I'm sure it would help the rats. Raising your own rats is the way to go, I raise about 500/week. It is a big cost savings and it is also convenient to have any size rodent any time you need it.