Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Heres the point, you go on and on over some theory you have. But your forgetting we are talking about actual animals in captivity.

So if you would be so kind, show us the benefits of what your thoughts have accomplished. That is, lets see what its got you and your animals.

I am willing to do the same.

You see, this forum is about applied husbandry, not theoretical husbandry. Here we use it and we get results. Real results, not theoretical results.

So far, you only state what you think is right and the reasons you think they are right. I on the other hand have actual successful repeated ad nauseum results.

What say you? Thanks

C'mon now, Franky. We all know masonmonitors doesn't stand a chance playing this 'results' game.

Nothing mason says is going to top the production of 37" Ackies.

We're not talking about Ackies. You should have read what you were talking about before getting your nose dirty. I never said anything against FR's ability to breed other monitors. Dozens of times I have stated I'm speaking strictly of Savannah monitors. For the record, it's not like Ackies aren't some of the most prolific breeders in captivity when it comes to monitors.

Like I said, I do feed and have always fed my Savannah monitors invertebrate diets. They are perfectly healthy. That's all there is to it. I don't breed Ackies. The fact that you are all so hostile to a new idea that is in my experience beneficial to a monitor that is terribly misconstrued is a little off setting to me. Honestly I just think you're pissy because you can't think of any logical reason as to why I'm wrong. What do you want, video evidence? Photos? You still haven't explained to me why I'm wrong. Thanks anyways though for promoting the practice in improving our husbandry techniques as a whole.

Hi again, I`d just like to ask you how long you`ve been keeping V. exanthematicus, what`s the longest you`ve kept them alive, healthy, and productive (how many times you`ve bred them), based on your ideas on diet and brumation in captivity?
Thanks!
P.s. I don`t think anyone is saying you can`t feed them a diet of invertebrates, just that other prey works as well or better, according to results.

There is no sense talking to you. As you divert everything to something else.

I ask strait foreword questions, like what has your captives expressed in the way of health.

But you do not grasp that what so ever. You turn the conversation to ackies, when no one ever mentioned ackies. No one, just you.

I base all my thoughts on midsized monitors, which is what Savs are. Not ackies.

In fact, I do not recomend rodents as a base for ackie diets.

As far as I can tell, you have nothing to show, which means, your dicussion here is academic, as in, all theory and assumption.

Simply put, a healthy well fed female monitor lays eggs, if they don't, they are not healthy.

And they do it to the minimum degree of health, not the maximum.

As anyone with successful experience understands, a normal female will lay two or three clutches a year and you cannot stop them.

Now for the reality. If your or anyones adults do not lay eggs, there is something wrong. That something could be diet or conditions. As those two areas are tied together, and go hand in hand.

In my opinion, you like so many others, and man, this really centers of Sav keepers, rationalize all manner of cause and effects, based or YOUR OWN FAILURES. So you rationalize anything you can to cover your own personal responsibilities.

Which means its of a personal nature to you, has nothing to do with the wellbeing of the monitors. In short, you have both hands covering your bum.

If you really wanted to add to all our understanding, you would actually show what you have accomplished with your beliefs.

As that whats this forum is about. If you have nothing to show, then your opinions/theories are academic, which means aside from actual appliable information.

Friend, I have not turned anything around. When you asked a question I damn well responded, you were the one that DEFINITELY refused to answer MY questions. I've stated many times that my monitors are healthy, thick tailed, and very active. at just over a year, almost three feet isn't bad for a Savannah monitor if you ask me, since you're so worried about the diet I feed my Savannah. As for sexual maturity, it has another year to go, from what I've talked to other monitor breeders about, they prefer to give them an extra year before breeding. Once again, what do you believe is wrong with an invertebrate diet? Why do you believe elevation affects brumation? Murriandi said it affects temperature... well in captivity temperature is entirely under my control. I always provide my monitors with a range from 78 degrees to 90 degree at a most, with a hot spot at about 150 degrees. They spend plenty of time basking and burrowing, which from my knowledge sounds like a relatively healthy monitor. Why, if they do it in captivity, and if thousands of other reptiles do it in captivity, should brumation be dangerous for a Savannah monitor?

First off, your making longterm recomendations, and have no long term experience.

I asked to see the results, and all you so is say your save a great. Your Sav. One individual sav??????

No offense, but thats not anything you can offer advice over. No offense, you can feed a Sav dogfood and it will grow to three feet in a year.

I do find it odd that you are so sure of yourself, with no experience whats so ever. Sir that is what causes harm to the pet varanid world.

My advice would be to wait until you have a measurable amount of experience then you can engauge in offering advice.

I do stick to my statement thats its very odd that short term Sav keepers, become experts in a year. You see, I feel really really bad, it took me decades and thousands of monitors to gain the insight that i have. Cheers

I am not a monitor guy, but I read this forum because of the knowledge I gain about this really cool group of reptiles. I gain it by listening to what the experienced hands have accomplished.
My single question for Masonmonitors is this: "How many monitors of any species have you hatched out?"

Is that what knowledge is based off around here? How much money you can spend on monitors that are prolific breeders? What exactly are all these breeders going to tell me that I haven't already read in dozens of studies, forum threads, books, and conversations? They are going to tell me their opinion. Because yes, they have facts. They have LIVING Savannah monitors. Congratulations. You preserve life. They still haven't gone above and beyond for the Savannah monitor because there is no money in it, as stated by FR. I'm not doubting in your care for the species or anything, I understand you have more important things to do with your breeding "twenty species of monitors". I myself chose to specialize on the Savannah monitor because of the controversial topics on them such as this, and because it would do them(the monitors) good to become captive bred if they're going to be kept in captivity, and I believe firmly in that. I do not advocate wild bought and imported monitors.

I was just trying gauge your actual experience. I believe the answer to my simple question is zero.

It must be. I've bred a select few other species of reptiles, but as I don't have a factory to my disposal to breed all the monitors in the world, I chose Savannahs to do work on because of the issues in the trade with them. I just don't think any species of animal should be doomed to a likelier death than the other because of a damn price tag. I care for the species. Just as well, if it's made out to the public that they are a specialized species that require such and such care, it's less likely a beginner will want to start several colonies of bugs just to feed one lizard.

What does "I don't have a factory to breed all the species in the world" have to do with anything? These guys breed monitors successfully because they are passionate about it and have years of experience to draw from. They learned from their mistakes and figured out what is important and what is just window dressing. The problem with these forums is that anybody can offer advice, regardless of whether this advice is merely half-baked academic dogma or real world, useful information.
You have three monitors and they are all alive. That is not so impressive. Some of these guys have been breeding monitors for years. Do yourself a favor and pick up some copies of VIVARIUM from the mid to late 90's. There was a series of interviews with FR which are fascinating. Also, maybe some pictures of his "factory".

What a goof, you think so much of yourself, because you have to justify why you keep a Sav. And why you have not done anything with it.

Its very simple, all normal monitors, kept in halfway decent conditions, lay eggs, that is NORMAL to them. Anything less then normal stops them from laying eggs. That is WILD captive, normal monitors.

Until you have reachced what normal is for the monitors, you have done nothing.

Your all proud of yourself because you want to think your special because you have kept your monitor for nearly a year and its not dead.

if you what to talk about your, less then a year, I had a female ackie for 16 years, a male lacie for 18, and female cross for 14 that laid over 80 clutches.

So you think anyone could not learn more with that experience, then your less then one year????????

Or I have bred Whitethroats for many generations, another african monitor thats bred much less then Savs.

Also its not about breeding them, its all about the steps it took to start them out, keep them going, have them successfully recuperate for the stresses of laying large clutch after large clutch.

You see, there are demands on a diet that are greater then what your limited time has required.

Which means, your very very naive.

There have been hundreds of SAV keepers just like you, and pround and smart, only to have their wonderful Savs fall over dead. Sir, that is the sad part. But your too friggin egotistical to even think your just a beginer. With less then a year under your belt. Good on you.

Its sad your too afraid to even post pics of your animal, so we can actually tell if there even is a Sav in your care.

Yikes.... this conversation has gotten out of hand.

Believe it or not, I see where you're coming from and I think others do as well. But I think your missing the point.

Regarding diet:

1) We get that Daniel's study of Savs in the wild point to a specialized diet.
2) One study a specialized diet does not make.
3) We understand that the information should not be discounted either.
4) Experienced shows that medium sized monitors (WHO ALL HAVE SPECIALIZED DIETS IN THE WILD!!!) achieve minimum health levels (i.e. the ability to reproduce/lay eggs) best on a rodent diet in captivity.
5) There is ZERO evidence that suggest Savs are different
6) If you think differently, show us the evidence (that means pictures of growth and eggs).

Regarding brumation:

1) Of the multiple species of varanids Frank and others have successfully bred, none have required brumation.
2) Many of those species come from areas that are higher elevation and further away from the equator than Savs, which means that they go through higher temperature fluctuations than Savs, and are thus more likely to brumate than Savs.... yet they didn't require brumation for succesful captive reproduction.
3) Savs are found in low elevations near the equator, where seasonal temperature variations are least likely to occur, and thus brumation is least likely to be relevant for reproduction.
4) Savs have been successfully reproduced in captivity at least once and to my knowledge, brumation was not an issue.

Thanks, honestly this is all I've been looking for this whole time. First off, as for brumation, THAT was just something I was throwing out there for conversation while we were at it all. I know that when I bred Basilisk lizards, mine absolutely refused to breed until I sent them through a brumation period, and while I do understand we're talking about an entirely different genus, a savannah monitor is different from and Ackie, which is different from a malaysian water monitor, which is different from the next and the next and the next. And like you said, the necessity varies among subjects, so I had no reason to believe it couldn't be a possibility. As we've all stated many times, they don't live in "optimum conditions" in the wild. So should it not be easy for us to produce less than optimum conditions then? I mean, I just don't get why there have been less than fifty captive bred reported occurances with Savannah monitors. It blows my mind with all the ground we've covered over the years with monitors, that the least expensive and cared for monitor, the most prolific breeder in the wild, still cannot be captive bred in abundance.

They aren't bred in abundance for a few reasons, one of them being that many keepers have some of the same misconceptions you do. Additionally, they are cheap and abundant at pet stores, and thus usually purchased and kept by people with little experience and understanding.

Savs are not as different from ackies as you think. Nor are waters, or niles, or anything else.

1) They require lots of food. I don't think they type of food is important as long as it supports growth. I don't see anything wrong with feeding snails or crabs or whatever... but why do that when rodents are proven to work?

2) They require a wide range of temps. Typically this means from 70-130 . There may be exceptions to that rule of thumb, but the most important thing is to let the animals tell you and not the other way around. If your savs are always at the hot spot and never in the cool spots, then allow them to go hotter. 150 however, seems extreme to me... but the animals are the experts. Not me.

If you provide 1 and 2, then a healthy female will lay eggs. If you have a female that isn't laying eggs, then there is a problem somewhere with 1 or 2. Which brings us to...

3) Nesting. It seems that varanids are very specific about their nesting and if they don't have an adequate place to nest they will hold their eggs and either absorb them or hold them to long and die. This is probably the #1 killer for female monitors. I've lost a few to this very problem.

It has been shown over and over and over again that monitors do not require specialized diets (or breeding ackies would be different than breeding argus which would be different than breeding albigs which would be different than breeding kimmies, etc.)

The biggest hurdle keepers have is recognizing how important 1 and 2 are.

Screwing around with diet is pointless if temperature ranges are insufficient. Low temps and too enough food = fat monitors. High temps with not enough food = dead monitors. (cont.)

A range of temps allows you to err with not enough food because they can cool themselves and conserve energy (thermoregulation). It also allows them to properly metabolize food.

If keeper do figure out parts 1 and 2, then part 3 usually kills their females and they quit.

These three things along with the fact that nobody with experience has much interest in breeding savs (no $ in it) is the reason it hasn't been done much.

All that being said, there is nothing wrong with feeding monitors whatever as long as it is allowing for proper growth. Yours seem to be doing so, but I question why you haven't seen eggs?

Just understand, a specialized diet in captivity isn't a must... it's an option. If you choose to provide one, recognize that you are doing so because it suits YOU... and not because they will fail without it. They do wonderful on just rodents.

Lasst but not least, if FR (or any of the other keepers out there with more experience) shows up and points out flaws in what I, you, or somebody else has to say... it's usually best to listen.

I have a few years and maybe 200 hatchlings worth of successful monitor breeding under my belt. FR has decades worth and likely thousands of hatchlings. It's comparable to trying to convince a grandmaster there is a better way to play chess.

1) You are probably wrong.
2) Even on the off chance you were right, he won't believe you with out hard evidence... and for good reason.

Hope some of that is useful. = )

My only real point on here was to argue the invertebrate diet, so what misconceptions do I have? So that I no longer make these mistakes. Like I said, I'm not trying to make a profit. The whole thing just sort of baffles me. I don't like the idea of Savannah monitors being sold as beginner pets for thirty dollars in your local pet store. Of course, ideally they would be bred in captivity, so there are no more, or less imports, and then of course the cost of Savannahs would go up, and hopefully people would think twice about buying a thirty dollar monitor. But that's just in my dream land. And I under stand this is reality. That doesn't necessarily mean I don't think we should try our best to work towards it.

"My only real point on here was to argue the invertebrate diet, so what misconceptions do I have?"

That such a diet is necessary. It's not.

"I don't like the idea of Savannah monitors being sold as beginner pets for thirty dollars in your local pet store. Of course, ideally they would be bred in captivity, so there are no more, or less imports, and then of course the cost of Savannahs would go up, and hopefully people would think twice about buying a thirty dollar monitor.'

Nobody who understands what happens likes the idea. But the fact is that it is far cheaper to import savs than it is to breed them. Breeding them will NOT make prices go up. Few people will pay more for a chcb sav when they can get one from the store for cheaper.

In order for captive production to have any impact on importation, you would have to breed them in HUGE quantities and sell them for next to nothing.

"That doesn't necessarily mean I don't think we should try our best to work towards it."

Nor do I. I think breeding savs to lessen importation is a fine (though lofty) goal. But if that is your goal, then you are wasting your time with the specialized diet argument. You are making an already unprofitable goal more expensive to achieve, and thus less likely to succeed.

If breeding savs is ever to become profitable (and thus desirable and likely) then you will have to bring in morphs (like albinos), and reduce cost of keeping and reproduction, not make it more expensive. Just the reality.

What your missing is, a captive diet is reflected by the growth, reproduction and LONGEVITY, that the captive animal expresses. Period.

What your missing is, success is not new, not in the last 25 years. There are many people with generations of longterm repeated success.

if I were to offer you advice, then I would look into apples to apples situation. That is, copy what has been done successfully, IN CAPTIVITY.

Once you done that, that is, reach a level of proficiency, then you can and SHOULD test things or diets your curious about.

Until then, your just another individual with a Sav. And there are millions of you and of those millions, 99% of their savs will die within the first two years.

So why do you think your so different?

The first major reptile breeding project I took on was striped basilisks (B. vitataus.). I bred those things for several yearsover multiple generations both in N.Y. state and here in Fl.. I never gave them any brumation period and they bred consistently and prolifically. Which was great in N.Y. where I could sell them and not so great here in Fl.. where you cannot give them away.
I have found that they are actually quite sensitive to temp drops and cannot handle anywhere the low temps that something like a green iguana can handle. They have a much more limited range here in Fl. than do iguanas. I am aware of the pronounced wet/dry season that occurs in central America as we have a similar scenario here in Fl. albeit with some lower temps in the winter.
As I said however I never dropped their temps or altered their humidity and had more striped basilisks than I new what to do with sometimes.

Perhaps... different elevation between here and NY? haha no I'm just kidding. Like I said though, different experiences. At the time I was experimenting with breeding ball pythons, leopard geckos, bearded dragons... just trying different things. People just toss their reptiles out these days. Literally, I've heard of people setting their bearded dragons and ball pythons loose up here. I just don't like that.

we are not trying to insult your intelligence on here but what I see is you are making a mountain out of molehills. there is nothing wrong with feeding bugs to monitors but the fact is you can feed them rodents (and other things as well) and have them do just fine. If you pay attention to them more you can certainly breed them as well.
I just read your post on your feeding of your bugs, your making everything way too difficult, which is fine if that's what your into, but sooner it will burn you out. You sound like some junior chemist with your bug diet, I throw whatever vegetables I find cheap out of a group of veggies I choose to use throw some laying mash in with them and also throw whatever vegetables are going bad in the fridge. I've done it that way for years everything I feed those bugs to thrives. I have a similar diet plan for my rodents that works the same.
If something dies on me I don't look at diet that's not where I went wrong. I look at my husbandry, that is where the problem is whether it is temps or humidity or cage size or keeping incompatible animals together. Your problem will almost always be there .
when people who are new come on here looking for help that is where the problem ALWAYS is. Anyway enough of this for now as I do have cage cleaning and feeding to do.

I think it`s a very useful discussion.... (Thanks)!
You say a Sav is different to an ackie, which in turn is different to a salvator. In what way are they different? They ALL require a very similar temp range, a range of humidities, a whole prey diet in order to live long, healthy, and productive lives. So actually, there is very little, if any, difference when keeping them in a "shoe box" in captivity!
I believe one BIG problem with the Savannah monitor in particular (apart from the cheap price and easy availability), is that they are often seen as "beginner" reptiles, bought on impulse by keepers with virtually no knowledge or understanding of these special animals, the results are as we know, thousands die within the first few years of life....
How hard is it to provide those necessary conditions? .... It`s EASY!!!

At how complex people make this stuff with monitors. I have certainly had my share of successes and failures with monitors but generally speaking I find them quite easy to care for in terms of set-up and feeding they just require a lot of work to keep clean.
I find montane african chameleons, dwarf chameleons and southeast asian agamids to be way more difficult than monitors and if you pay attention to what you are doing with those you can do fine with them.

Generally speaking, yes, they're similar in the ways that all monitors are with those things you stated. But if they didn't each have to adapt to a very particular way of looking, they would all look the same. Cheetahs are faster because they have fast prey. Lions are stronger because they have large and strong prey - in broad terms. Of course there are many other reasons for all the differences between a lion and a cheetah, but for the sake of argument, they adapted over the years to suit to a particular way of life in a particular region. Same thing with the many many many different species of monitors, except the differences are much much much less substantial - differences nonetheless though that I, as a monitor keeper, take in to consideration. It's these differences that made Black throats, white throats, and Savannahs. Not just exanthematicus in one species. AS for the whole pet trade thing, I hate it with a passion. I wish I could change that drastically, so as to preserve and separate the lives of as many wild and captive monitors as possible, but it's me against money. I lose. I still think that the ability to breed Savannah monitors in captivity may lessen the imports, and hopefully increase the price tag on Savannahs. Once they're captive bred, everyone will want only captive bred, because it's so much better somewhere along the lines. That's just how I feel on it though.

"Not just exanthematicus in one species. AS for the whole pet trade thing, I hate it with a passion. I wish I could change that drastically, so as to preserve and separate the lives of as many wild and captive monitors as possible, but it's me against money"

There is a book out that is titled "Taxonomy, Life History and Conservation of Giant Reptiles in West Kalimantan" by Mark Andre Auliya.
Its is basically a research paper he did on Water Monitors, Retics, and Blood Pythons, what they eat where they live and commercial trade in them.
A lot of interesting info to study there.
Among the things that shocked me were his stats on how many of each species are exported for the pet trade compared to how many are exported as skins to be made into boots and wallets. The pet trade is a drop in the bucket.

I'm sure. I really don't doubt it. That doesn't go with out saying that we're talking about probably tens of thousands of monitors a year die due to poor keeping. Just because there is something worse isn't an excuse for us not to try to improve conditions.

You said you were concerned about monitors being taken from the wild for the pet trade. My point is that the pet trade is a drop in the bucket. If they are not sold in the pet trade they will end up being wallets and boots and belts or someone's dinner (or all four.). A good case in point along that line, is 3 malaysian leaf turtles I own (Cyclemmys dentata.) the jobber I bought them from got them from a guy in Indonesia who acquired them by going through the food markets and picking out his turtles to be shipped here. Had they not made it here they would quite literally been someone's dinner. about four years ago I might add. I think they might prefer their current enclosure and pond over the stewpot they were heading for.

Your confusing the animal with its requirements. Yes, an ackie is different then a Sav which is different then a lacie, which is different then an albig, which is different then a kingorum, which is different then a gouldi, which is different then a croc monitor.

But the captive care for all those is very nearly identical, and does not require hibernation etc.

That confusion is something many keepers that fall for, and for gods sake, I cannot figure out why.

About Daniels paper, you should drop over and ask him how long he was there, how many did he find with a cricket in their stomach, what were the conditions, what happened to those monitors, etc. Or ask him about his experience keeping Savs in captivity or how his field knowledge benefited his captive experience??

I believe Daniel to be a very honest man. Ask him? Did you understand that the exact animals daniel found the cricket in the stomach in, were not actually wild natural Savs. But instead Savs that have overtaken feral agricultural fields. As in, none natural habitat.

So with that in mind, I wonder what a natural wild Sav consumes when its not in an old wheat field?

Also, your trying to be all exact, with some silly idea your duplicating their natural enviornment. Yet you do not have the foggist idea what that is. Or what they eat there. And you somehow think that a captive cricket is similar to wild free ranging african cricket.

You do understand, any food item is what that food item consumes, your are what you eat and I am positive that those wild crickets or any wild insect is not feeding on what your food items, for your sav are feeding on. Cheers

Well Frank, I never meant any disrespect towards you if that's what it is you're thinking. You have plenty of accomplishments. But like earlier stated by another poster, monitors are relatively easy to keep as long as you fully understand their needs and complete "steps one and two". It's not like there aren't plenty of papers, reports, studies, and examples of the same thing you do with your Savannah. The thing that has been successful in keeping them alive for years to come. I understand you have years and years of experience. I do. I just don't know what it is you can tell me to do different with a Savannah monitor to accomplish "optimum conditions". Is there some other trick that I'm unaware of? I mean this literally, if there is something you do different from your savs than the general idea then tell me. That's why I'm on here. I'll post pictures of my Sav gladly! I really don't mind. Also, where did you read by Daniel that said they never ate crickets? The preliminary study of the monitors systems were flushed and fecal matters were studied, showed that their diets relied heavily on orthopterans after the winter seasons. Mainly locusts and crickets. Also, where did you learn the monitors were in wheat fields, and what difference does it make? I assume the monitors went to the wheat fields were bugs like crickets and locusts would collaborate to eat the wheat.
The picture at the bottom is of my sav basking at 150 degrees. He managed to lay on the stack an entirely different position I had expected. Interesting fellow.

I call shenanigans on the 3ft total body length, at least in those pictures the monitor has a 10 inch STV length at most. You see I use the same type of bulbs, they are 5 inches across exactly. Heres a 4ft monitor for reference with 2 of the same bulbs, dont mind the skin shedding on his back, also the dirt along with it, hes was burrowing a bit ago.

to my understanding crickets, or most invertebrates, aren't a good source of calcium, right? and calcium is a major factor in the diet of monitors, correct? well if savs for example have such a specialized diet where do they get their calcium? are wild inverts so much more nutritious than captive inverts? cause I know no one goes around sprinkling calcium on wild inverts, and yes I know they must eat the occasional rodent or bird they find dead or alive, but is that enough? To make eggs and grow as fast as they do? That's a hell of a lot of inverts if it really is their main food source. I would think maybe they eat a lot of snails, shell and all, for calcium but from what I've experienced and read they mainly crack the shell eat their snail and leave the shell or most of it. A monitor with no sufficient source of calcium would mean it is prone to mbd and other diseases which do not allow for reproduction wich would equal to a failing species. I think (purely academic and assumptional) they eat whatever they can find invert or w.e but maybe they eat more rodents and such than we can see. Rodents look into burrows and other areas for food themselves, maybe the monitos use this to their advantage and we can't really see that being that their burrows have more than one entrance etc. I don't know if they might have disected some monitors to see their diets and that's how they know they have a specialized diet? Then again some whales eat nothing but krill an look how big they are haha.

I'm not asking these questions to prove a point or because I believe one diet is better than the other because the fact is I am new at monitors and I pretty much know squat compared to most of you, but these are questions that really intrigued me, and I think it's beneficial for everyone. Sorry fr the long post by the way lol.

Crickets, roaches, millipedes, and scorpions all included in their diet. Crickets contain about 100 grams of calcium in them, assuming you aren't feeding them sugar coated cereal. Their nutritional value is said to vary greatly upon what you feed them. I don't use crickets though personally, I breed roaches. I feed them a mixture of whole wheat cereal and a dash of reptivites. Not too much vitamins though, I'm not sure, but one thing could lead to another, and it could lead to an over production of another chemical in it's body. I added the vitamins because the cereal I fed was relatively basic as it goes for nutrition.