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I have a ?

bigtman Sep 22, 2011 10:16 PM

Florida kingsnake neonates most normals look different from adults. But for those of you that breed them, can you tell how they will end up just by looking a the babies?
Thank-you all for your time.

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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
1.1 High Yellow Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.2 Tangerine Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino

Replies (36)

Bluerosy Sep 22, 2011 11:29 PM

Back in the 80's and early 90's that is what we (brooks afficiandos used to do0 we would look through the breeders tables to find the best possible babies.

back before the hypo breders used to selectivly breed normals for the most high yellow or bone white brooks kings. They displayed the parents or had pictures of them at their table along with the offspring. Now these were already selectivly bred for better lighter colors. But we would select the best of the best. When you get babies they have a range from dark to light and everything else inbtween the two spectrums within a clutch. We would look real close at the dark areas and look for flecking. The ones with the most flecking inbwteen the crossbars turened out the best.

There are other ways but this is one way to tell with the true brooksi phase Floridas.

I don't know what happened to all these stiking brooks kingsnakes, but when the hypo came along we had the ULTIMATE light brooksi. So people did away with those projects since we could get something that blew all that away.
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"Wild caught or not, if the snake needed to be fed more, it needed to be fed more. Case closed."

Billy (Discern)

www.Bluerosy.com

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bigtman Sep 23, 2011 12:21 AM

thanks That's what I was looking for.
-----
Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
1.1 High Yellow Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.2 Tangerine Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino

lucy47 Sep 23, 2011 09:21 AM

Bluerosy is right the speckling inbetween the crossbars is a good indication of quality. There are other ways some valid others not so much but here they are.

% of yellow in the eye. More yellow the better

Less pattern on the belly. More yellow the better

Pattern on the top of the head. More yellow the better

Hi-Red coloration on top of the yellow pattern.

Brown instead of black for a base color inbetween the pattern

there are probably others but these are some of the "tells" ive been told by others. Again some of these are BS some probably do give some indication. So if you see a baby Brooksi with solid yellow eyes lots of speckling on a brown ground color thats head is mostly yellow along with red crossbars on a near patternless yellow belly get that one

Lu

FoxTurtle Sep 23, 2011 09:51 AM

Haha, I think the only trait there that has any real meaning is the lighter base color. I look for evidence of speckling and basal lightening. I also try to select for thinner bands, and a more irregular, broken up side pattern.

The high-red coloration just makes the juveniles more attractive. I've kept brooks that were super red as juveniles, and they just ended up as dirtier adults with maybe some remnant red coloration.
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www.brooksi.com

bigtman Sep 23, 2011 10:50 AM

I was just wondering so when I do start to breed my snakes I can try and grade them.
Thanks again
Tom

Bluerosy Sep 23, 2011 11:02 AM

Haha, I think the only trait there that has any real meaning is the lighter base color. I look for evidence of speckling and basal lightening. I also try to select for thinner bands, and a more irregular, broken up side pattern.

The high-red coloration just makes the juveniles more attractive. I've kept brooks that were super red as juveniles, and they just ended up as dirtier adults with maybe some remnant red coloration

yeah, high red babies don't really amount to uch except dirty looking adults.

that is why i said that after SEEING the light colored adults, you can choose for the best from the group of babies being offered. if you choose well. You might end up with screamers that look much better than the orig parants.

But the overall light color needs to be in the origanal parants as well as the high and narrow crossbars and as much side speckling as possible.

basically I am agreeing with everything nick said. just when choosing babies out of a clucth look for:

1) the speckling inbwteen
2) thin and not wide crossbars
3) some irregular or broken up (speckling) side pattern.
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"Wild caught or not, if the snake needed to be fed more, it needed to be fed more. Case closed."

Billy (Discern)

www.Bluerosy.com

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lucy47 Sep 23, 2011 11:34 PM

Those damn dirty reds! lol

Lu

lucy47 Sep 23, 2011 11:46 PM

I agree the basal lightening is the best indicator. I posted my own "tell" in there and thats the brown color or babies already showing ontogenetic change. Im suprised on how much basal scale lightening the Pahokee babies are showing, the males anyway.

Lu

foxturtle Sep 23, 2011 11:58 PM

Some from Pahokee come out pretty light. It would be neat see some nice light colored kings from your line.
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www.brooksi.com

lucy47 Sep 24, 2011 09:55 AM

I just want them to look like their Pop. Im suprised Nick you dont have at least one pair of Sugar Cane Kings in your collection of getula awesomeness.

Lu

FoxTurtle Sep 24, 2011 11:03 AM

I don't have them only because I haven't found the right ones. Not recently anyway. I've got so much stuff now that if it isn't something I feel strongly about, I can't dedicate the cage space.
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www.brooksi.com

DMong Sep 23, 2011 02:27 PM

With my line, you can expect to toss alot of this totally out the window. I have had hatchlings that are black and beige(zero red) that become insanely green/yellow, orange/reds gold become awesome golden yellow, very red and brown juveniles become insanely golden/bronze/copper, dark brown and reds become very mahogany and gold with light peach highlights, brown and reds become nice and green/yellow, and even some that have insanely wide bands of all these different types become composits of all the above and many with hints of light peachy orange highlights, and even a few with ridiculously wide red and/or yellow cross-bars that made the dark inner-banding become blotches like some of the nicest Abbott Okeettee in existence that the deep red gradually became orange and then orange-ish yellow. ALL of these became HIGHLY basal lightened(speckled)as well. Nick can tell you about these popping out some crazy anomalies himself. He had one that started out very similar to what mine did. His came from W/C Hillsborough county stock. And I strongly suspect mine have some of this sulfer lineage and then were further line-bred.

Bottom line is it all depends on MANY unknown factors as to what alot of floridana will "actually" become. Wild type stock is a bit more predictable with more of a consistant phenotype. Yes, parents are certainly a good indication too as they both mentioned. But when there is so much killer variation in some of the clutches they themselves came from, it is virtually impossible to really know with any degree what many will really look like when mature. These things I have have no rhyme or reason and practically cover the entire color and pattern spectrum. This is certainly due to all of the line-breeding that has gone on with this particular bloodline, as it is exposing many bizarre hidden traits that would normally never come to the surface if they were constantly out-crossed like so many other lines. Just as they would in nature, all these little individual traits would normally never be exposed because the likelyhood of the same line animals constantly meeting up and exchanging the same "like" genes would be practically non-existent. All these little weird traits that are within their genetic code would normally be constantly diluted and absorbed with the other snakes very different genetic make-up.

There are literally countless MILLIONS of genetic codes floating around within their genetic makeup, and when they repeatedly keep getting matched up on the chromosome helix from directly related offspring(siblings), you can get some insane results!

Believe me when I say.....Nobody here can accurately predict what many of mine will become whatsoever. Even I am blown out of the water as to what I have seen with these things.

I have a ton of different pics that would leave anyone's jaw on the floor if they saw before and after pics of their ontogenesis....

As the other's said, many times you can get a pretty good general idea in many types of lines from looking at certain characteristics, but these things are like opening up Christmas presents when I put hatchling pics side by side on my computer photo program and look at them side by side as to what they have actually become as they matured.

Anyway, you will see what I am talking about later on..

just a couple quick examples......please excuse their little waterbowls. I was cleaning all of them as I was taking the pics, but didn't want them bolting out or not holding still for the pics..LOL!

#3 female as a tiny hatchling

same #3 female as a young adult

#7 male as a hatchling

#7 male over a year later...

original parent female of these as a tiny '07 hatchling

same original female several months ago...

female #8 as a tiny hatchling....

same female #8 over a year later...

anomaly phenotype male #2 as a hatchling(very same clutch)

same #2 male at only one year. This is nothing,..you should see him NOW!!..

original '07 male sire as a tiny hatchling..

same '07 sire as a young adult...

here is another strangely cool recent phenotype!

thanks for looking!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DISCERN Sep 23, 2011 02:31 PM

Those parents you show pics of always leave me speechless. WOW!!

Great pictorial presentation of the drastic changes from babies to adults.
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Genesis 1:1

trevid Sep 23, 2011 02:47 PM

Spectacular...Dave.

DMong Sep 23, 2011 05:34 PM

Glad you like them too Dave..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Sep 23, 2011 05:32 PM

Thanks Billy, I am very pleased with how they turned out as well.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

bigtman Sep 23, 2011 03:24 PM

OK Doug I am over here trying to be calm and have patience, and now you throw those thing up. Now I can't wait for them. Let me know if you need me to fly down. I'll come and shove the dam mouse down their throat. LOL. They are just awesome reptiles.
-----
Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
1.1 High Yellow Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.2 Tangerine Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino

varanid Sep 23, 2011 03:44 PM

LOL. I'm hoping I sell one or two before my hatchlings from him are ready--I need the tub space!
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

DMong Sep 23, 2011 05:40 PM

Yeah, space can be a real issue sometimes. I am planning on moving a few other things out to make room for other future things as well. I look forward to getting yours to your rack sometime soon..hehe!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Sep 23, 2011 05:36 PM

LOL!!,..yes, I am just as eager to get them going and on their way too. All in due time as they say..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

TBrophy Sep 23, 2011 04:07 PM

Doug,
Wow. Just wow. That yellow brute crawling up your arm is really something. Nice series of photos to prove your point.

DMong Sep 23, 2011 05:58 PM

Thanks Tim,.....He sure is a unique looker for sure!.

Many times red doesn't always equate to "dirty" as it does in many other Florida kings and red goini. Many of those can really brown up alot as they mature as was mentioned earlier.

cheers, ~Doug

#4 male hatchling......

same #4 male at around 18 months

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

a153fish Sep 23, 2011 04:45 PM

Can't wait to see what that last one will look like!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

DMong Sep 23, 2011 06:06 PM

I know Jorge, that thing should be killer I am thinking too!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Sep 25, 2011 03:58 PM

I would agree.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony D Sep 25, 2011 04:16 PM

I would agree.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

fliptop Sep 23, 2011 07:00 PM

Those are so sweet I think I got a cavity.

DMong Sep 23, 2011 07:32 PM

"Those are so sweet I think I got a cavity"

HAHAA!!..too funny man.....thanks!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jlassiter Sep 23, 2011 07:17 PM

Verycool comparison pictures Doug......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

DMong Sep 23, 2011 07:35 PM

Thanks John. It really is hard to believe they can change so freakin drastically.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

foxturtle Sep 23, 2011 09:01 PM

I don't think the fact that we've both produce that wide-banded phenotype is a coincidence. I too am thinking there is some sulfur lineage in yours.

Hell, this year when I bred my sulfur king to a brooksi, I showed the offspring to Daniel and said "Look, I made some high-red brooks." I just sold those off, and I'm regretting it now! Oh well, will produce them again next year, and hopefully some pure sulfurs.
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www.brooksi.com

DMong Sep 23, 2011 09:13 PM

...I have been pondering that for a very long time and connecting the dots on all the individual similar characteristics I have been observing with this line. Then when you popped out your very similar looking aberrant it really started to reinforce this further still.

Maybe I'll talk to ya later about some stuff this weekend if you are going to be around..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

rosspadilla Sep 23, 2011 09:13 PM

Wow, you werent kidding when you said there was a lot of variation in those clutches. I like that greenish one, will it stay like that?
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DMong Sep 23, 2011 09:32 PM

Yeah Ross, variation is an understatement with these things..LOL!

Heck yes, she is VERY GREEN and she is just over two years old now. She got nothing but MORE intense green as she matured and still continues to do so. She also speckled-up in a major way as all of them do. She is one of my absolute favorites!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

lucy47 Sep 24, 2011 09:46 AM

Those are all very awesome Kings Doug! Im not a huge fan of pattern mutations but those look pretty sweet.

Lu

DMong Sep 24, 2011 11:43 AM

Thanks Lu!

Yes, I certainly wasn't expecting any of the offspring to turn out like that when I first started producing them by looking at the two parent's phenotype..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

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