Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There, I said it. Hopefully I successfully defend it.

I have been required by my city to obtain an exotic animal fanciers permit to keep Ball Pythons. Before paying my fee and allowing the local Animal Control officer to inspect and dictate how I should run things I examined the city code to see why I should be required to get a permit.

City code states that keepers of "snakes of the order Boidae" are required to obtain an animal fanciers permit.

I did an inordinate amount of research and could find no reliable source that could prove that this is true, the only trusted sources I could find are the government records of taxonomy and they all confirm that Ball Pythons are of the species "pythonidae" a completely separate evolutionary branch from "Boidae", it is true that some of the Pythons of Boidae are classified as being in the subspecies "pythoninae", but this group of pythons do not ever contain P.Regius (ball pythons). Ball pythons are not ever classified as Boidae or a subclass of Boidae, they are always classified as being "pythonidae" a distinct and separate class from Boidae.

I explained this in detail to out city attorney, who it so happens wrote this code years ago, which further explains his reluctance to interpret the facts correctly.

His response to me is that since some pythons are classified as Boidae, then the law should apply to all pythons, regardless of their correct classification. I am tempted to file a petition to outlaw all cats in our city based on the same logic, that since lions are not allowed then all cats should not be allowed.

This miscatagorization of Ball Pythons being Boids is a well entrenched belief among a great deal of the population, further exacerbated by just about every book ever written about Ball Pythons. I have yet to find a book about ball pythons that does not describe Ball Pythons as being Boids.

With the avalanche of opinion from public, private, and well respected breeders and experts I was beginning to have my doubts. As a last resort I wrote to Mr Roy McDiarmid, arguably the top expert on Herpetological Taxonomy in the World.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/vz/herps/herps_staff_pages/mcdiarmid-staff.cfm

http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/staff/profiles/documents/mcdiarmid.htm

Here is a copy of my email to Roy McDiarmid

____________________________________________

Hello Mr McDiarmid,

My name is Mark Martinek and I breed ball pythons. I am hoping that you could help clarify what is turning out to be a rather confusing subject. I am having a difficult time verifying if P Regius is or is not to be classified as Boidae.

It is my opinion that it is in the Pythonidae family, a completely separate family from Boidae.

It is the opinion of my city that P.Regius is to be classified as being of the Boidae family, this is based on the fact that sometimes "pythonaides" are classified under the family of boidae, therefore ball pythons are Boids.

I have found that sometimes the pythons of the Boidae family are grouped into the sub class pythoninae, but I don't feel that this somehow makes a ball python a member of Boidae.

I would greatly appreciate it and am quite hoping that you could settle this confusion for me.

Sincerely,

Mark Martinek

_____________________________________________

Here is a copy of the response from Roy McDiarmid

________________________________________________

Dear Mark,

I think I can help. The Ball Python is in the family Pythonidae. It is not in the Boidae, although some may argue that both pythons and boas are in the same family Boidae. I do not.

I hope this helps.

Roy McDiarmid

Roy W. McDiarmid
USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
Smithsonian Institution
PO Box 37012
National Museum of Natural History
Room 378, MRC 111
Washington DC 20013-7012

_________________________________________

Since doing this research and weighing my options I have decided to obtain my animal fanciers permit and pay my fees instead of trying to fight city hall and risking unknown repercussions to my collection, but I feel it is wrong for me to be required to do so.

Perhaps this information will help others having similar difficulties.

Best Regards,

Mark

End result: Your city got their cash! That's all they were ever interested in!

Mark,

I've always thought you to be a wise man. Your decision to pay the fee (in my opinion) was a wise decision on your part.

Brian is excited about meeting with you on Monday.

Thanks my friend

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Good luck (seriously).

Trying to talk Science and FACT to scared, ignorant morons is never an easy task.

Give the attorney a break. He isn't a moron. Apparently their is confusion and a difference of opinion even among experts in the field and literature. At least they allowed for a permit. I will admit that when he wrote the law he probably didn't have any idea of the size of different pythons. He thought he was regulating LARGE snakes.

Back when I started most people called all pythons and boas "boids". You can't get pissy because people that AREN'T EVEN INTO HERPS don't keep up with all the taxonomic changes.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Why is a lawyer that has no knowledge of what he's dealing with writing a law that has a major impact on people?

You're making two assumptions:
That such a situation is atypical

AND

That this is such a situation. It is still common to call ball pythons boids in the pet trade and there's still some debate about it (as the museum guy you got a letter from noted). He could, at least theoretically, be fully informed AND STILL draw the same conclusion as he does now.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

GOOD question!
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

At the time everyone thought that was true. Some experts apparently disagree still to this date. If they had consulted a reptile expert at the time, the law would have read the same. Every book agrees with the lawyer. Things have since changed, maybe, depending on who you ask. That is from the expert Mark has quoted.

My point was why call the lawyer an ignorant moron when he was correct by all literature available at the time.

I wouldn't want to have to get the permit either, for all of the reasons Mark mentioned, but calling the lawyer names doesn't advance the cause. That man wrote the original law and had it passed, he probably has the power to write another law that is more restrictive if he wants.

I actually didn't fully analyze the original post. Just speaking in general terms, you can't change people's minds about anything they're more than happy to fear. Im sure we've all seen that in action. Also in general, it's just ridiculous how many "laws" are based on pure ignorance. I totally agree Balls ARE Boids, always have been. But that's not really the point here.

Hi All,
I think this is a great discussion to have, as at least in my city the classification of Ball Pythons Being Boids or not affects a significant amount residents who are currently being required to possess an exotic animal permit to keep what is by all accounts a most docile, harmless snake that has an extremely low capability to inflict damage upon persons or the environment.
As I am quite attached to the idea of Ball Pythons NOT being Boids I must examine if perhaps I cannot see the forest because of all the trees in my way, but currently I can find very compelling evidence to support Ball Pythons are not Boids, this opinion is also congruent with the opinion of the Top US Government Scientist working closely with Herpetological Taxonomic Classifications. While there is certainly a pervasive belief that Ball Pythons are Boids, I have not found these claims to have adequate data to back them up, it appears to be more of a myth that has been repeated and passed on for so long that it has become ingrained deeply in our minds. Somewhere there must be evidence as to how this got started, and perhaps at one time they were classified as Boids, but as of today, evidence falls on the side of Ball Pythons not being Boids.

If ball pythons are not boids, does that mean reticulated pythons and African rock pythons are not boids too?

If retics and Afr rocks are not boids, then the laws would just be rewritten to regulate them. And the net would most likely still catch ball pythons, too.

Of Course.

I am sure he is quite intelligent, and I have not ever had an ill thought about any herpetological question ever posed to me, by anybody, and there have been lots, and lots. If you would have asked me a year ago if Ball Pythons were Boids I would have told you yes. I would bet 99 out of a 100 would tell you the same today, perhaps that number will dwindle, perhaps not.

It may certainly be that proximity to lawyers has shaded my thoughts away from civil interpretation, but the law is the law, and it clearly states in the municipal code the following

"(c) Following members of the Class Reptilia: Order Chelonia, such as, but not limited to, the snapping turtle. Order Loricata, such as, but not limited to, alligators, caimans, crocodiles. Order Squamata, family Boidae, such as, but not limited to, anacondas, boa constrictors, pythons."

If understood correctly this can only mean that unless you have a member of Boidae you are not required to obtain an exotic animal permit.

Just as "children of Mark, such as, but not limited to johnny, Billy and Susie" does not mean to apply to every Johnny, Billy and Susie on earth.

A permit is certainly not a terrible thing to have. But, aside from being irksome to have to pay monies for an incorrectly required permit, it allows my collection to be scrutinized and assessed by the same people who have a difficult time understanding or appreciating snakes, and also paying for the chance to be inspected at any time and having every snake impounded if ever it was deemed by an inexperienced enforcer of the law that a few dirty cages, or whatever. means that immediate seizure of your entire collection of valuable animals is in order. I would hope and completely expect that this is a very remote possibility, both for the excellent care my animals recieve, and the excellent experience I have had with law enforcement during this process, but it is a possibility none the less and decreases ones sense of security.

Mark,

Here lies the root of your problem. Both your interpretation and "law enforcement's" interpretation of the law on permits for Boidae are really inaccurate.

Basic biology classifies all life as follows:
Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

If a law is passed including the ORDER Boidae than that includes all subsequent FAMILY, GENUS, AND SPECIES.

You and "law enforcement" have mislabeled Boidae and "Pythonidae" as Species.

Inaccurate accounts on these types of issues make ourselves and the government look uneducated.

The USGS officers have already proven themselves uneducated to the reptile community and thus we need to make accurate statements to educate the government.

The wording of the law in your area is accurate...sadly. This is why you pay for a permit.
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Np
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

> It may certainly be that proximity to lawyers has shaded my thoughts away from civil interpretation, but the law is the law, and it clearly states in the municipal code the following

> "(c) Following members of the Class Reptilia: Order Chelonia, such as, but not limited to, the snapping turtle. Order Loricata, such as, but not limited to, alligators, caimans, crocodiles. Order Squamata, family Boidae, such as, but not limited to, anacondas, boa constrictors, pythons."

> If understood correctly this can only mean that unless you have a member of Boidae you are not required to obtain an exotic animal permit.

Hmm. "... such as ... pythons." Seems to me that the only way to avoid the permit requirements is to prove that the ball python is both not a boid and not a python. As the ball python's scientific name is Python regius, proving it is not a python could be difficult.

Seems to me that the city's intent is to regulate python keepers. If the city attorney bought the pythons are not boids argument, the law would probably be amended to "families Boidae and Pythonidae" within a couple of months. Best to let sleeping dogs lie, IMHO.

Paul Hollander

Honestly, Im under the impression that these "lawyers" often write such confusing laws for the common person to become just that confused! Based on what the law states you provided it would disqualify bp's as requiring a permit just like you have stated. Its wise to post things of this nature to inform others the nature of the beast(government). It seems that government tries to write laws like this to enforce reasonable laws but also satisfy the "uneducated" person requesting these laws. Its a viscious circle but the better you/we know the laws, the better we can stand up as a group.

do it...go and make a law banning all exotic cats that are not native to the USA...house cats are not native...thusly would be banned...do it...I will Love it....I wish the USA would ban all cats...it would be so cool.....and teach them all how we feel....

....don't you ever get bit?
....what would you do if you got bit?
....do you have the meds if you get bit?
....they have teeth though , ? don't they?
....aren't they slimy?
....aren't they poisonous?...all of them??....you mean they aren't?...wow....
....how do they poop?...
....how do they breed?

...people....gotta love them...?....
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........JY

Have heard all of the above LOL...

What baffles me is how many "non snake" people who find out I have snakes think all my snakes are just living loose around my house.

One guy at work caught a cricket in the hallway the other day and put it in a cup on my desk for me so I could feed it to my snakes. He meant well. I let the cricket go in the garden

.

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Slytherin Serpents

Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 Het Caramels (Edward & Bella)
0.1 Normal 66% ph Caramel (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel (Bellatrix)
1.0 Honey Bee (Aragog)
0.1 Hypo Pastel (Nagini)
0.1 Spider 66% ph Hypo(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojaves (Lucius & Renesme)
1.1 Pastel Lessers (Jacob & Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)
0.1 Normal (Madame Olympe Maxime)
0.1 Het Pied
1.1 Pastel Dinkers (Snape & Xiomara)
0.2 Ghana Dinker Babies

Corns
1.1 Normals het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Diffused, Hypo (Romeo & Juliet)
1.0 Blizzard het Diffused (Tumnus)
1.0 Blizzard poss het Anery, Hypo, Diffused (Cotton)
0.1 Anery Lavender het Amel (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma poss het Hypo (Victoria)
1.0 Plasma poss het Albino
1.0 Hypo Plasma
1.1 Amel Motleys (Harry & Ginny)
0.1 Lavender Motley poss het diffused
1.0 Lavender Pinstripe Motley het Amel
0.1 Fire poss het Anery, Charcoal, Hypo (LeeLoo)
0.1 Normal het Albino, Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused
1.0 Albino het Lavender, Anery, Charcoal, poss het Diffused
1.1 Sunkissed poss het Plasma (Arthur & Molly)
0.1 Dilute Blue Motley (Myrtle)
1.0 Pastel Motley (Nick)
0.1 Diffused Caramel

Kings
0.1 Thayeri - Leonis (Sidney)
1.0 Thayeri - MSP
2.1 Hypo Brooks

Milks
1.1 Tangerine Albino Hondurans
0.1 Hypo Tangerine Albino Honduran