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He's an 04 male around 3' long.

I can't really tell from those photo's. Does the pattern look like a CA kingsnake or a Desert kingsnake? Might be a Mexican black kingsnake that retained some pattern or some kind of cross.
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Was it recently found in Arizona?
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No, I live in the UK

Okay, then if it wasn't captured in the southern Arizona area where the Desert king, Mexican Black king, and California king are known to naturally converge and intergrade, someone crossed any of those three combinations to produce that snake. The percentages of any two or three of their lineages in that animal can vary drastically, and no two snakes from that clutch necessarily have to look real similar either. There can be individuals that look much more like one ore the other parents.

In other words, it is impossible to say exactly what prcentage of two or three subspecies is in that snake's genetic makeup.

I have seen snake's from the Nogales, area just north of the Mexican boarder that look virtually identical to that one, and again, it is right around where all three of these subspecies converge. Some can look like one type, another can look like another, and others can look very intermediate.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, I completely agree with all that, Doug. Looking at the pattern again, I do see CA influence, So I'd say at least CA x MBK cross.
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yes, very likely indeed!

The intergrade king I sold Graham Criglow the originated from parent stock captured from the Nogales area of extreme southwestern Arizona in Santa Cruz County had a belly exactly like that(just a tad less white), as well as a pattern that was very similar to that one too, only bolder and more defined. A guy I know also had one from the very same are of Nogales he captured himself that looks almost identical to the snake in question.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks for the info. I would have expected him to be bigger if he was an intergrade of any 2/3 of those though. It has been suggested he could be an Eastern, so any comments on that idea?

No, you can simply forget about it being an Eastern king, even though it might seem to look little bit like an extremely dark one to some folks. It is definitely a cross of two or even three of the western subspecies crosses we mentioned.....guaranteed.

As Ross also mentioned, the MBK(nigrita) is very evident, and the belly patterning is indicative of Cal. king and/or splendida.

All of these snakes can also be very hypermelanistic too.

Anyway, forget about it being an Eastern king. I have seen thousands of all of these subspecies mentioned.

Just enjoy it for what it is....a kingsnake cross of the getula complex..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Thanks for the info. I would have expected him to be bigger if he was an intergrade of any 2/3 of those though. It has been suggested he could be an Eastern, so any comments on that idea?

And......Easterns are larger than calkings, splendida and most nigrita........why would you think a snake you are trying to ID be bigger if any of the three mentioned? Do you know it's exact age or if it's full grown?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Easterns are *much* bigger than cal kings or mex blacks so I'm not sure why you'd expect them to be smaller?

Anyhow, it's a mixture of subspecies that naturally intergrade just enjoy it they're all fun.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Thank you.

The snake has only been with me for 10 days. He was originally bought as just a King snake but his previous owner had asked about him and been told it could be an Eastern but this was doubted as they are quite rare in the UK.

He is 7 years old so I guess fully grown and much smaller than Calis and MBKs that I have seen (my 18 year old Cali is 5') so I suppose that could suggest the influence of the Desert too. I won't be breeding him so his origins don't really matter except for my own curiosity so I shall label him as a pos Cali/MBK/Desert cross.

I appreciate all your help.

In a basic way, you have it backwards, they migrated to this part of the country from the south and deverged here, not the other way around.

Also, here is Southern AZ. the pockets of common kings are seperated by unuseable habitat. So intergrading is a very odd concept.

Successful patterns is a very good concept.

For instance, becoming Black occurs here with the banded types(cal kings) and with the spotted types(splendida types) and we also have true black kings(no underlying pattern) They occur in different areas and are physically seperated. It appears melinism works in the wetter habitats, rapariain, as opposed to xeric where spotting and banding dominate

Ok, going herping now, where all that occurs, thanks

"In a basic way, you have it backwards, they migrated to this part of the country from the south and deverged here, not the other way around"

That's funny, how could I have gotten anything "backwards" when I never stated that any of them came from any particular direction?. I don't see anything in my post that insinuates anything close to that.

Of course the nigrita came up from the south in Sonora where the black morphs are the more dominant forms. Who is disputing any of that?..LOL!. And by the same token, californiae from the west and north, and splendida from the east. That's all pretty basic stuff..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I would guess it's a captive lineage Mexican Black Kingsnake. In some parts of the Mexican Black KIngsnake's natural range in Mexico the babies hatch with splendida type patterns and turn black as they mature and occasionally they even retain some or all of the pattern into adulthood.

Captive lines were generally bred to produce the blackest hatchling but occassionally baby MBK's with the splendida pattern hatch out.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I totally agree with all that, and of course it is also a possibility. I too have also seen individuals with very vivid (or drab)splendida patterns turn solid black/dark brown within around 9 to 12 months time too.

Just no telling with any certainty with that particular animal really. Knowing how often people in this hobby cross things is why I tend to say this, ........just no way of knowing.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It's damn cool whatever it is.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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lol, i have seen that gif a zillion times it still makes me laugh.
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

yeah, the TUF uis on tonight at 10pm with Bisbing and mayhem as coaches.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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