Reptile & Amphibian Forums

These seem to be around here and there but there does not seem to be that many of them out there. I would think they would be more popular. What is the story on these? Are they new still? What is the genetics behind this trait? Thanks. Tyler.

>>These seem to be around here and there but there does not seem to be that many of them out there. I would think they would be more popular. What is the story on these? Are they new still? What is the genetics behind this trait? Thanks. Tyler.

Not a new thing at all.....
They've been around since the Lemke, Porras, Vaverka and Retes days......

They used to be popular but the bright oranges and yellows were line bred for over the last dozen years or so......

It seems the earth tones and melanistics are making a come back......wild types......

As for the genetics.......there may be different lines, but I believe most to be recessive........I will be breeding a "het" pair together next Spring.....we'll see what their outcome is.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

The original animals came from Bill Garska and I. While doing field research, Bill picked up a pair of normals and bred them and produced black thayeri.

But before he did that I collected a wild adult female from nearby. Well, right there only mine was in the field and his were crossing the road.

I then bred mine and produced hets and then back bred to produce blacks. A simple recessive.

So I had the first one, Bill produced the first captive hatched, then I followed.

That line was the same local.

I do not know of any other founder stock for black thayeri.

>>The original animals came from Bill Garska and I. While doing field research, Bill picked up a pair of normals and bred them and produced black thayeri.
>>
>> But before he did that I collected a wild adult female from nearby. Well, right there only mine was in the field and his were crossing the road.
>>
>> I then bred mine and produced hets and then back bred to produce blacks. A simple recessive.
>>
>> So I had the first one, Bill produced the first captive hatched, then I followed.
>>
>> That line was the same local.
>>
>> I do not know of any other founder stock for black thayeri.

Thanks for that information Frank.....I think Lloyd and Vaverka got them from Bill and you......
Glad to know that there is a another vote for simple recessive.......I always thought they were.......But a few "other" breeders claim it is not.......

BTW....What Locale is that?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I believe Frank's melanistic and Garstka's animals were collected near La Angostura/San Juanito. In Garstka's 1982 paper, he talks about the variation in offspring from his trio but does not mention any melanistics.

Steve Osbourne reported producing a melanistic in September of 1982. That hatchling was two generations removed from animals collected near Galeana, so I'm not sure its safe to say that all melanistic thayeri trace to Frank and Bill's animals.

Frank, what year did you produce your first captive bred melanistics?

>>I believe Frank's melanistic and Garstka's animals were collected near La Angostura/San Juanito. In Garstka's 1982 paper, he talks about the variation in offspring from his trio but does not mention any melanistics.
>>
>>Steve Osbourne reported producing a melanistic in September of 1982. That hatchling was two generations removed from animals collected near Galeana, so I'm not sure its safe to say that all melanistic thayeri trace to Frank and Bill's animals.
>>
>>Frank, what year did you produce your first captive bred melanistics?

Great info there too Greg.....I, for some reason always thought the melanistic gene originated in Galeana.
I do remember Lemke, Vaverka and Frank producing them....I did not know of Gartska nor Osbourne producing them...I guess I need to read up as you apparently have Greg......

Again thanks.....Maybe Frank will chime in again.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

The year was, hahahahahahaha, I believe Garska produced his first in 1978-79 and my first in 1979-80.

I collected the melinistc adult female in 78 in believe.

The direction the offspring took was. I sold some direct and many were sold thru John Ruiz. Whom I just saw at the Tucson Show.

The folks you mention were all customers of Mine or Johns. Mostly Johns.

What was very very funny was, that was the first animal piracy of Captive hatched animals occurred with.

I would offer them for a price and customers would ask why is the price so high I would say, I have the only ones. It was funny, those others, did not have any, they would list them, then if someone was interested, those dealers would buy them from me. Hahahahahahahahaha. Oh well it worked out well.

They were all trying to become Little Johns(Ruiz)

To me in a sense, John Ruiz is the creator of the mordern day markets. He was the first to place a value on animals and keep it. that is, he made kingsnakes valuable and a business, which led to other species after species. To the morph market we have now.

thanks for the info
www.4lakessnakes.com

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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

...........
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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>...........
>>-----
>>Gerard
>>
>>"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)
>>
>>"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)
>>
>>I couldn't pick between the two.
>>
>>www.livebaitclip.com
>>
>>
>>GONE FISHING!!!

LOL!!! Oh Gerard!
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

I didn't say it. I only thought it. Lol!

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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Pretty mutt........I know someone who wanted to do that Project at one time.....I saw some at Daytona 3 years ago too.......need less to say I did not buy any melanistic "thayeri" from the guy.....plus he would not advertise the fact that they had ruthveni blood in them.....at least you're honest mesozoic.........

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Pretty mutt........I know someone who wanted to do that Project at one time.....I saw some at Daytona 3 years ago too.......need less to say I did not buy any melanistic "thayeri" from the guy.....plus he would not advertise the fact that they had ruthveni blood in them.....at least you're honest mesozoic.........
>>
>>
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

Ha. Was he claiming the amel came from the Thayeri? LOL!! My buddy also did a cross with Albino Nelson's and he went to Daytona but that was like 5 years ago. I always list what the snake is. It's retarded to do otherwise. I'm working on a hybrid with the Mel Thayeri and something else that I think should come out pretty cool looking. Gonna take a couple years though!
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

>>
>>Ha. Was he claiming the amel came from the Thayeri? LOL!! My buddy also did a cross with Albino Nelson's and he went to Daytona but that was like 5 years ago. I always list what the snake is. It's retarded to do otherwise. I'm working on a hybrid with the Mel Thayeri and something else that I think should come out pretty cool looking. Gonna take a couple years though!

Wasn't the amel nelsoni x thayeri the candy colored clown kings?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah. I meant he crossed a Mel Thayeri to Albino Nelsons.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Remember, it's intergrade, not hybrid anymore.
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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Remember, it's intergrade, not hybrid anymore.
>>-----
>>Gerard
>>
>>"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)
>>
>>"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)
>>
>>I couldn't pick between the two.
>>
>>www.livebaitclip.com
>>
>>
>>GONE FISHING!!!

Thayeri Kings and Queretaro Kings intergrade?
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

>>Thayeri Kings and Queretaro Kings intergrade?

That hasn't been documented.......and anything crossed in a snake room is a hybrid.......intergrades occur and are not created by us.......

Btw......L. ruthveni X L. m. thayeri is a hybrid.......ruthveni are not in the mexicana species....they are their own species......like alterna.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" ....and anything crossed in a snake room is a hybrid.......intergrades occur and are not created by us......."

Ain't that the truth!
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Genesis 1:1

>>" ....and anything crossed in a snake room is a hybrid.......intergrades occur and are not created by us......."
>>
>>Ain't that the truth!

Yep...If they were just all called intergrades we would have PURE Gopher Cali Kings everywhere, huh?......lol

I'm just amazed that most of the keepers that are against Hybrids never scoff at Hobby Hondos, Creamsicle Corns or Goini X Brooksi.....I guess because they are a lost cause....Too far gone already?

I don't know if I can "ride both sides of the fence" but I do have to admit that I enjoy seeing interesting hybrids and may keep some down the road to satisfy some of my interests......We'll see though.....

Nothing beats a Wild Phenotype that can be produced over and over, eh?........LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" Nothing beats a Wild Phenotype that can be produced over and over, eh?........LOL "

Again, ain't that the truth! LOL!!!!!!

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Genesis 1:1

I was just messing with him. There are no rules anyway.
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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Remember, it's intergrade, not hybrid anymore.

Remember......that's bull crap.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Gerard was being sarcastic about what he said. Lots of folks like to word it that way so it seems more harmless and acceptable as you probably know.

Hey, what were those in your other post....emoryi x corn "rootbeers"?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Gerard was being sarcastic about what he said. Lots of folks like to word it that way so it seems more harmless and acceptable as you probably know.
>>
>>
>> Hey, what were those in your other post....emoryi x corn "rootbeers"?

K...I didn't catch the sarcasm, but I know what y'all mean......lol

Those I posted were a pair of slowenskii.........once thought to be an intergrade but now is a corn.........so it really all comes down to the name game, huh?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, I am familiar with the "Kisatchi's" slowinskii's. I just figured since you were replying to Mesozoic that you posted some man-made crosses for the occasion..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

A real shame that the poor guy got taken out in 2001 by a Banded Krait bite..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The same day my good friend was bitten by a Taipan at my work and 9-11. I think? That was awhile ago.
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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Wow!,...that sucks!.....so how did he make out after the bite??

Do you know if it was an Inland Taipan aka "Fierce Snake"(Oxyuranus microlepidotus), or a Coastal Taipan(Oxyuranus scutellatus).

Of course neither one is any walk in the park to be bitten by, but as you know, the Inland form is said to have THE MOST potent venom of all.

Wouldn't want a good "wet" bite by either to be quite honest..LOL!

Remember that dude that lived in the trailer that got bitten by his good-sized Black Mamba??..........arrrgh!!!. He came REAL close to buying the farm from that nasty bite.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It was Oxyuranus cani. He lived and is doing fine. I think it was the first documented envonmation in the US by that species. That was a crazy day.
They are really cool and smart snakes. He was removing dried shed from the snake and it slipped a little and got him on the finger. This is a microlepidotus I got to work with at Toms. I will keep this species one day. They are very interesting to watch.

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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Very interesting.......and glad the guy lived too!..

You can have those man. I would much rather continue to get crapped on than get envenomated by the likes of those..LOL!..

That is a cool looking snake though, I must say.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Yeah, I am familiar with the "Kisatchi's" slowinskii's. I just figured since you were replying to Mesozoic that you posted some man-made crosses for the occasion..LOL!

I knew you knew......I was just trying to point out the taxonomic name game we all play......

A once thought Rat X Corn intergrade is now a Corn subspecies but they are what they've always been in the wild....now they are just labeled as something rather new.....

But....I have always thought our Emoryi and Meahllmorum were cornsnakes..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, I definitely agree with what you're saying about the name game thing there..LOL!. As you said, they have been the same thing for thousands or more years, it's just taxonomy's perception of what they should be called..LOL!

I wonder exactly what the difference(s) actually were that Burbrink and Lawson found in the DNA findings between the two that lead them to the seperate entity conclusion?

Certainly not disputing any of it, just wondering how different it was..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I wonder myself....including all the differences their interpretations are between Guttata Guttata, Meahllmorum, Intermontana, Emoryi and Slowinskii

I think they are all Guttata personally......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, although there are certainly a few differences in all of them, I sort of think of them as sort of western "clinal variants" of the corns over here where I am. Even with the generally larger emoryi eggs(and young), etc....

I have a pair of Hwy. 277 Val Verde, Tx. emoryi from Shannon, and they are basically like just darker "corns" with slightly diagonal blotch saddles..LOL!

Oh well, what can ya do?..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"I think they are all Guttata personally......"

I think their biology is much more interesting when viewed that way. Splitting them up is to a simplistic approach in my view. Its a snap shot of what is current.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Then why is it in this forum?
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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Then why is it in this forum?

LOL...Good point......It is King X King though.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

So, it's a hybrid itergrade??????? Lol! Still cobra food.
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Gerard

"Certain individuals take the opportinity to make themselves seem more accomplished by misrepresenting the origins of animals to suit their needs" Bluerosy (Rainer)

"There is an appropriate time and place for everything. Unfortunatly you lack the sense to know the difference"Bluerosy (Rainer)

I couldn't pick between the two.

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That is a pretty snake. Is it that yellow in person or whiter?
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Chris - TX

>>That is a pretty snake. Is it that yellow in person or whiter?
>>-----
>>Chris - TX

White. It was pink as a baby.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com