Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, here’s the story! In 1993 a friend of mine was removing an old palm tree that was more of a large bush, in San Clamenta California. When they pulled the tree out, about 4 or 5 of these snakes took off in all directions, but he grabbed one and took it home. Not knowing much about snakes but knowing I have been breeding them for several years he called me up and told me the story and that he thought it was probably a California king snake. Witch by the description sounded likely. After seeing it I thought it was some kind of indigo or cribo. So I took it to show a friend that specializes in drymarchons (indigos and so on) and to our surprise he could not identify it either! Next I took the snake to the professor of herpetology at San Diego State University and after counting scales and doing every thing he could to identify it he couldn’t. So I took it to one of the San Diego reptile shows and showed it to several breeders including Robert Applegate and many others and stumped them all. What else could I do at this point? This snake did not try to bite and was as calm as holding a boa! He ate small dead rats without constricting. I went back to were it was found to look for the others but I never found any. Now the sad part. After having the snake for a few months I had to leave the snake with a friend that breed pythons for a short time while I was moving. My friend, (whom will remain nameless for his protection) let his snake room get to hot and cooked this snake and several others. I have been talking with a few reputable reptile vets that are showing interest in this snake and I have been thinking of going back to were this snake was found with a few people that would like to go help me find some of the ones that got away or there offspring. It is an ideal place that they could live in a small area forever. Please feel free to let me know if you think you can help identify this snake or if you would like to help find the others. These pictures are not the best but a least I have some. I can email more to people that can help. Thanks.

JIM F MCDONALD

That is nuckin futs(go see dicke roberts). You weren't kidding!! ! That is gonna bug the heck out of me until I find out what it is....good luck with that. Keep us posted. You are right...it looks like an indigo.

-->EvAN

I think it looks like a Madagascan Hognose (Lioheterodon madagascarensis).

Scary to think that there is a wild population living in California somewhere!
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

I breed sevral species of hognose, and this snake was not a hognose ! good guess though, I can see the resimbance. thanks.

JIM

All part of the diabolical plan of the *HYBIDIZERS!* in trying to infiltrate the Indigo forum. I surmise thats it a cross between Hydronastes gigas(False water cobra) and a blacktailed cribo and a Western coachwhip. Very cleve......these hybridizers, they produce these genetic misfits, then plant them under a tree and alert local people of their whereabouts, never letting on what they have produced. (laughing hysterically) Just another example of an artificially introduced HYBRID species that may compete with native fauna for valuable resources. LOL

I dont really knw what it is, looks like a coachwhip to me.
Nice find though and neat to see some diffrent types of snakes posted here. Thats what I love about this forum.

Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles

I'm guessing it's some type of Masticophis. Some localities produce dark phased specimens.
The head looks like a coachwip to me.
Chris

I agree with Chris (from Florida). It's head and body do look Coachwhip-like. Maybe an aberrant M.f.fulginosus or intergradient with M.f.piceus (AND aberrant)? I dunno...cool looking, though. All that stark white is the real killer...you'd think that if it were one of the western races of Coachwhip there would be some pink or yellow or tan pigment in the light areas. The black isn't really all that unusual, but I don't think I've ever seen that much white in a Coachwhip. One thing that's obvious in it's absence for a Coachwhip is the twin rows of dark spots usually present on the venter.

Posted by: jimfmcdonald at Thu Oct 2 14:46:39 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I have cought baja coachwhips in the past and they were very hyper very mean and were lizard eaters! this snake was not hyper ,not aggessive, and would only eat rats. its haed was not as long and thin as a coachwhip, and as you can see in the pictures its belly was mostly all pearl white. it was also much fatter and and not as long and thin as any coachwhip I have seen. thanks for your help.

JIM

Pattern definately looks like a Mad Giant hog as Chris H. said, but the face is definately more Indigo like. I'm going with the other Chris and saying it's a whip. The snake doesn't look bulky and thick-bodied enough to be a Drymarchon. However, that face is really Indigo looking!

However, would a whip fry in a hot snake room while other survived?? OI thought those suckers were tough as nails and liked it hot.

A.C.

"4 or 5 took off out of a bush in all directions"...

This doesn't sound very Drymarchon-like to me.
Granted I've only studied easterns in the wild, they are territorial, and you'd never have 4 or 5 in the same bush that would take off in all directions upon being disturbed.

Sounds very racer-whipsnake-coachwhip-like.

This has me puzzed too and I have checked a couple California snakes websites, and have not really found anything that looks like it.

Whipsnakes seem to have a pointy head...I gotta think racer or coachwhip...

If not...I think it's some introduced exotic snake, or this whole post is a hoax or something.

I'm with AC that the head looks Dry-like. The body looks too thin to be Drymarchon though.

np

i dunno guys, i keep whips and racers and that doesn't look like either to me. the head is way off! i've never seen body markings like that either on a 'whip or whipsnake.....amf, i never saw a snake like that before.....i highly doubt it's indigenous but why were there 5 of them?.......baby cribo feeding report: 19 are now taking rodents left and right but 5 still want minnows. but i'm over the hump at least. 2 males started eating live fuzzies almost immediately after birth [july]. that is pretty unusual but i don't really know if the 'egg scenting' experiment had anything to do w/ that as some of the lids got mixed up in the early going.. 3 eggs were scented so it did not work on at least one.....

?? I think it looks more Masticophis-like, but there is no known sub that looks like that...In CA they should be very red...Plus you said it was CALM!! Wild looking creature...
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

my friend did keep it in his freezer for a year or so then I lost contact with him for a while and by then he had tossed it! as far as a hoax I dont know the first thing about faking pictures. and I said I would love for some people to go help me catch more of them if there still there ! also these pictures were taken right after I got the snake so he does look a bit thin but after eating a few times he was as big as a golf bal or bigger, much more like a indigo. thanks.

JIM

Email me if interested....

fundad@kingsnake.org

Brian
Fundad

Hey dude! What are you doing lurking in here? Good to hear from you! Did you the field collecting forum get taken down again?

Eric

hotshot posted this in what kind fourm and i belive this is it, and it would make sense why its there.scott

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/m.f.fuliginosus.html

Just seems too strange to be true in today's day and age where few discoveries of naturally occuring species take place in populated areas. You mentioned some pretty reputable folks who couldn't identify the snakes; puzzling indeed. Sure looks very racer/coachwhip like....perhaps a naturally occuring integrade? It happens quite frequently in our state (southern part of Illinois)..but most of the integrading is within similar subspecies (black and blue racers, speckled kings and black kings for example). There are hints of other species (taiwan beauty snake) but I would be curious as to what this snake is (irregardless of whether this is a hoax or not).

How about bungarus caeruleus sinduanus. Check out the second pic on the attached link
krait

in a few days I will be going to look for another live snake to show to the world ..

np