Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Purists will never reach every young beginner. They are out matched by color,contrast & the power of change.

Remember that most new herpers became facinated with reptiles and amphibians because of an experience with a wild reptile. I personally had six of these new blood visit me recently, and they were mesmerized by my "pure" animals, even though I don't currently have anything that rare or elusive.

Just for argument sake how do you define pure?

Same species or subspecies, whichever is more specific. Intergrades occur in nature, but with species that are already extremely similar (ex: holbrooki & splendida, affinis & sayi). Many "intergrades" exist in well defined select areas, and some people debate on whether they are truly intergrades or just variations in one subspecies (ex: Canebrake/Timber- horridus). Some individual species vary quite a bit across their range (ex: lepidus lepidus, L. alterna), and therefore two individuals of the same species can look very different. By examining animals and doing scale counts, we can usually tell what is a hybrid, and what's not. I will not deny that there could possibly be genetic material from another subspecies from way back before the original parents were caught. If you find a natural hybrid and want to post it, I can appreciate that, and that is actually what I thought this forum was for when I first came to it. You have to admit, however, that corn/alterna crosses and corn/ruthveni crosses are unnatural.

You can't save the world! I too like natural variations, fieldherping, etc, but other people have passionate interests in different arenas. People are as diverse as anything else. Jeez, for all we know Darwin may have eaten a few Galapagos tortoises on his long journey. Curiousity is definitely not confined to the "field." Don't bother with an ethics approach. Do you have any wild animals in your collection? I do, but I don't hybridize so it must cancel out People will experiment (even if they aren't scientists), that's the way it goes. As long as the hybrids never leave a cage.... Also, you can thank many state-agencies for introducing exotics/hybrids into natural ecosystems. Shane

I loved your darwin eating tortoise line. Thats !@#$%^ hilarious. Nice!

Plastic is un natural,dueche bags are un natural. The internet is un natural. What does the word natural have to do with this place. This is a hybid forum. Your last sentence stated "what is natural about that". No hybreeder is claiming NATURAL. The only thing natural about hybrids is their feces.

In concept, I can agree with that.

Thats great keep it up. Im not against you. Ethics...Dont even go there. Is keeping wildlife in a tub ethics? If you wanted to be a scientist why are you breeding & selling wildlife. You are no scientist. WAKE UP...SNAP OUT OF IT. Your a guy with a room full of wildlife caged for your own amusment, you scientist you..........did you have a little science kit when you were little?

>>Your a guy with a room full of wildlife caged for your own amusment

First of all, you have made assumptions on someone you have never met, two of which are not true. I do not have a room full of "wildlife", but I do own some herps. My interests are finding herps in their natural environments and studying their venom, anatomy, and habits. Second, What is it you think you're doing? You're a guy with caged wildlife that just manipulates them into whatever design he wants. At least "purists" have the possibility of eventually helping a dying species make a comeback!It would be a crime to release some of the animals you own.

>>Is keeping wildlife in a tub ethics?

I use mostly enclorues I had built to meet species specific needs and glass enclosures, but on behalf of those who do use plastic tubs, what is the difference between their tubs and your aquariums? Even conservation groups that use captive breeding efforts use economic methods to house their animals. I know for a fact that H.E.A.R.T. uses small yellow plastic containers to jumpstart their ridleys.

>>First of all, you have made assumptions on someone you have never met, two of which are not true. I do not have a room full of "wildlife", but I do own some herps. My interests are finding herps in their natural environments and studying their venom, anatomy, and habits. Second, What is it you think you're doing? You're a guy with caged wildlife that just manipulates them into whatever design he wants. At least "purists" have the possibility of eventually helping a dying species make a comeback!It would be a crime to release some of the animals you own.>I use mostly enclorues I had built to meet species specific needs and glass enclosures, but on behalf of those who do use plastic tubs, what is the difference between their tubs and your aquariums? Even conservation groups that use captive breeding efforts use economic methods to house their animals. I know for a fact that H.E.A.R.T. uses small yellow plastic containers to jumpstart their ridleys.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

np
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

You will NEVER offer "beginners" anything but a novelty.

You will not offer them the study of science or the awe of nature or the wonder of natural selection and evolution.

I simply encourage beginners to join a herpetolical society to learn. You hand them a peice of eye-candy.

If money has "nothing to do with it" as you claim...
then why are these hybrids so expensive?

Why do some go for thousands?

If money has nothing to do with it...why not give them away?

Because the original crosses are damn hard to get to breed. Much harder than any of the most difficult locality animals you have ever worked with.

BTW novices and agnostics like yourself could learn a thing or two about genetics. If you knew anything at all you would not be posting such caa caa.

Go ahead try and enlighten me with your scientific prowness and explain basic GSS.

Novice to what? Hybridization?

Novice to the "hobby" of creating animals that were never meant to be by tricking snake A into breeding with snake B by spraying it with warm water that smells like a female snake A?

Rocket science.

Personally, I think you should be able to sell your animals for whatever someone is willing to pay. I was simply responding to honey lamb's comment that "it has nothing to do with money"

Come on.
It has everything to do with money.

...for the record, I don't work with locality animals, but I work with challenging species. I have for many years. That isn't the point though. We are just debating WHY people keep trying to breed create new hybrids.

I think the answer is simple and it's ALL about the money.

It's a challenge to hybridize snakes, and a game... What can we come up with next? What can we get to breed together?

Knowing hybrids are possible, I get curious about things... What would a Black PineXBlack Rat look like? A big 7' black snake? Probably... Could I then breed it to an eastern king to add some girth? ...that is about the only reason I would produce a hybrid, though. I'd most likely keep all the offspring, or distribute them to friends. Personally I think such a hybrid is worth less than either of the parent animals, but I suppose someone else might think otherwise.

I admit I'm curious too. That's why I look at the pictures on this forum.

My biggest objection to hybrids is that it kills a novice's interest in natural history and ecology of herps. It creates the candy store syndrome.

By the way, CAN you breed a fox with a turtle? ( a foxturtle)
Maybe if you got some fox phermone on a young, hot little box turtle...

But what if she decides to "box up" when he's doing his part?
ouch.

I don't know anything about genetics anyway. If I tried it, I'd probably end up with a turtlefox or something like that and it wouldn't be worth anything anyway.

Those prices mean. Not for sale. However even with those prices some did sell. Everything has its price. Money has nothing to do with hybrids. I breed thousands of snakes & lizards every year. Believe me when I tell you hybrids for me it is not about money, I do a great many other things in this business to make money. Hybrids are my hobby. If people want to pay for them that does'nt change anything, except arm purists with reasons to complain. I think the arrogance of the purists is a problem. I think they feel cast out or something. Do they ever snibble over albinos,hypos,patternless,luecistic,anerys? Really think about that.

That right, I do.