Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There hasn't been much happening here so i thought i would post some pics. I

This one is a Peanut Butter x hypo x axanthic. This is also 100% pure S. Florida brooksi. Very mellow temperament.

A jelly x axanthic 2011 late hatch. I got from someone who purchased some poss hets from me and produced this. He basically gifted it to me.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never gets old looking at floridian pics. Nice, this is why I ended up getting into floridian. Keep the pics coming

Very nice.
-----
Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
1.1 High Yellow Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.2 Tangerine Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis het albino

Nice looking kings, Rainer. Is a peanut butter a single recessive?
-----

Is a peanut butter a single recessive?

Yes the Peanut butter is a single recessive. It is really a type of hypo. But since they came out after the hypos that name was already taken. It could have been called hypo type II, but forum posters on this forum voted to name it a peanut Butter after i suggested sevral names.

I am glad they did choose the Peanut Butter name as this hypo type II (Peanut butter ) is unusual as it shares and allel on a single locus with the T negative albinoi. Which makes it very unusual. But I did not know that back then.

So if you breed a Peanut butter to a T negative you get all "jellies" in the first generation (no hets). That jelly is really the crux of all the high end morphs because it can split sevral ways like a recessive. There are still lots of new multi visual morphs to be created using the Jelly morph when it is combined with some of the older traits like the Ghost, axanthic, whitesided, lavender, hypo, anery, anery ghost, snow , T hbegative ect. The list is really endless on what can be accomplised with new double triple and quad morphs.

You also get T egs and Peanut butters out of these breeding as a Peanut butter bred back to jelly produces Jellies and PB's and if you breed a Jelly back to a T neg, you get T negs and Jellies. Combine that with other morphs and the skies the limit.

We are just now starting to see a few of the morphs possible. I have some quad hets that are PB x Lavender x whitesided x hypo that will produce next year. I can't wait to see what that produces.

There is also a possibilty of a new codom gene in the Floridas that needs to be proven. Whn and IF it does. We will see even more crazy stuff happen.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holy crap! lol I didn't know about all of that. Are there and double or triple homozygote's that look alike and cant be distinguished from one another without knowing the history?
-----

Holy crap! lol I didn't know about all of that. Are there and double or triple homozygote's that look alike and cant be distinguished from one another without knowing the history?

I have no idea what you just said there. Can you explain better?
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lol ok say you have a triple homozygote with a combination of axanthic x PB x hypo. That's just an example. that one I will call type A homozygote and just say for instance there are other triple homozygote's made up of different combinations of recessive traits which we will call type B, type C, and so on. do any of them look exactly alike? like can type A look just like type C or any other and you can't tell which is which when put side by side? and when I say you, I mean anyone.
-----

>>lol ok say you have a triple homozygote with a combination of axanthic x PB x hypo. That's just an example. that one I will call type A homozygote and just say for instance there are other triple homozygote's made up of different combinations of recessive traits which we will call type B, type C, and so on. do any of them look exactly alike? like can type A look just like type C or any other and you can't tell which is which when put side by side? and when I say you, I mean anyone.
>>-----
>>

That seems to be the problem with some of the multiple homozygote corns.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I really don't understand what either one of you are saying. Either we have our wires complety crossed or you don't understand Florida king genetics. I am not sure where this question even came from? What i mentioned was the HYPO and Peanut Butter look similar. But what does that have to do with multi morphs homozygots?

Fo instance a triple homo PB x hypo x axanthic and a triple homo PB x anerythristic x lavnder look completly different. They have completly different traits and they don't look similar at all.

Also there havn't been that many multi morph homozygots produced yet. The 2 triples I mentioned above are the only Triples in existence-ones that have been produced thus far with the PB or Jelly traits..[old morphs like axanthic x lav x hypo don't count] But we do have multi hets in the works and well see more what they produce soon. We don't even know what they will look like. This whole Florida king morphs is still in it infancy.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm, I think I know where this confusion came from. I think it was the two pics I posted at the beginning of this thread? But the question was not a response to theat post. So i was confused.

The first pic of the larger snake is a triple homo PB x ax x hypo and it starts dark and turns light (ontogentic lightening) the other snake is a baby Jelly x ax and they will darken with age. These two snakes are at different stages of life.

As everyone knows Florida kings go through all sorts of changes as they grow. Normal babies are very dark and lighten up. So those two pics could have been the reason for the confusing questions in regards to multi homos looking similar.

But I do know of a couple new morphs that look similar. But nobody except Jeremy here would even know about that.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK cool. Yeah, you answered my question when you stated there were only two triple homozygote's in existence, and they don't look alike. I was wondering if there were any that did but that won't be known for some time. It had nothing to do with the original post, its just something that popped in my head when you said there were lots of different morphs (double,triple,quadruple homozygote's) that have yet to be produced. I'm just wondering, will they all be noticeably different or will a lot look so much alike, they are not that big of a deal to make.
-----

I really like the Peanut Butter and Jellies and all the possibilities that can be made. Yet I have to be honest and say they are already many which are hard to identify, without knowing the parental genetics. Just do a search of past threads on them and you'll see all the confusion. But having said that, I really enjoy working with them, and look forward to seeing what pops out!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jorge,
the confusion came from your post. You posted a hypo and said it was a Peanut butter. i did not pay attention to the pic and also some pics of any snakes it is hard to tell what it is depending on the qaulity of the camera and setting, lighting etc.

I responed to your post assuming it was a Peanut Butter. Thus then you came back and said it was a hypo. i really did not pay attention to the pic as your question did not have to do with what type snake it was but another question. I just responded to that.

Anyway, that is how i remmeber the post you are referring to. Seeing the snakes in person is always easier. Pics it is always hard to tell 100% what they are. Unless you have a great camera and lighting is not indoor light {incandescent, floiuresent), or direct sunshine, indoor ect. Overcast days are best to show true colors. the backround color also makes a difference on how an animals appears.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I should also add that mixing different phenotyoes changed the look of the original peaunt butters. Especially to the untrained eye. So yes, hypos and Peanut butters can be probelmatic to tell apart. But ot somuch so when they are combined with diffrent recessive traits. But that will eventually change to.

You have to look closely at the black scales o n a single trait peanut butter or hypo. basically the dark tipping on a hypo are black and on a Peanut butter the dark scales (that appear to be black from a distance) are actually a lavender color.But you have to take a close look.

The peanut Butter coloration has changed with different crosses . like the Golden and high red individuals as well as lighter or white indivual lines being thrown in.

Just like the hypo, the peanut Butter now comes in many different flavors and shades of color.

Golden peanut butter:

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do NOT go by Brian hubbs book on Kingsnakes. he used my pics of sevral different florida kingsnake morpsh that i gave him and has them labled complety wrong. I am sure that adds to the confusion with people using his book for refrence on florida morphs.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't even refering to that one, which I never said it was a Peanut Butter by the way. But I have read many other threads where there was confusion even over wether a snake was a Peanut Butter or a Jelly. I remember one that I copied and saved so it might help me in the future, where you and Zenny were debating the genetics of some snakes. I also remember some threds where many pics were posted and we had to guess what they were. Very few people could guess them right. Dumje even posted a female snake he purchased as a Peanut Butter and there was no definative answer given to him. The hypo I postsed as a Hypo, then some one else said it was a Paenut Butter, then you said it was from your 1,2,3 line. So yes there is some confusion, and I'm sure as Ross suggested, the more layers are added in, the more they will be harder to distinguish. Still I love working with them, but truth is truth.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

LOL!!,...I remember alot of that stuff too Jorge. There will always be some confusion with certain animals no matter what. It's just very much a part of the game.

Even when the multi-genetics of two parents is 100% known, there can sometimes be some major confusion that arises. This will never change. Add certain unknown lineage to the equation and it can often go out the window altogether.

Lighting and camera settings can DEFINITELY make animals look totally different than they actually look in real life, this is an absolute fact, but there are always going to be times when it is just virtually impossible to tell what something really is or isn't along the way. This is only realistic and it happens all the time..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Interesting stuff guys. I just read all 3 of your guyses post's. That more than answers my question. Wow, I didn't know Hubbs goofed on those names, Rainer. He goofed on some CA kingsnake names too. lol Has anyone seen the FL king in Hubbs book on page 287 at the very top by Kevin Enge? That has to be the coolest FL king ever. Why do we not see those in collections?
-----

"Has anyone seen the FL king in Hubbs book on page 287 at the very top by Kevin Enge? That has to be the coolest FL king ever. Why do we not see those in collections?"

Man!,........I would KILL to own a genuine "Osceola-Suwannee" natural intergrade king from the Duval County area!!!

I have admired those things for YEARS now!. I was talking to Kevin Enge about those at Daytona recently as well. There used to be a fair number around, but have disappeared into the wood-work just like so many other types of snakes have over the years. There used to be all sorts of stuff that was around years ago that is totally unseen in the hobby now.

The name actually originates from a composite of two seperate things, the Osceola National forest and a business that used to have these that had the name "Suwannee" in their business name. This was simply a marketing ploy for sales, but the name has stuck well over the years. They were actually coined "Suwannee" kings.

There is also some natural intergrades from around the Pinellas County area of Florida that have a fairly similar look, although the ones from the Jacksonville area are very noticeably different. Nick Mesa and Lindsay Pike have some of these, and they can vary considerably as well with their phenotype as it all depends on the percentages of either floridana or getula as to what any given animals will look like.

As a matter of fact, back in 1999 here on the forum, there was a thread about them, and this is what one guy asked/said about them..LOL!

the story i heard was that the suwanee is the
: result of the crossing of the indiginous kings
: and an introduced exotic(colony). the story may
: have been pure speculation. i was discussing this
: with someone today(who knows more about the band
: counts and scalation and such of kings than i do).
: we were wondering if a cal king crossed with an
: eastern could produce the suwanee type. don't get
: excited, i don't have any breaking info, i was
: just curious to know the story of it.

Here was Kenneth Krysko's reply to him clearing the silly misconception regarding what this guy heard.

"Zach,

This is totally false! A little more than 10 years ago, some collectors in the pet trade coined the name "suwannee kingsnake" to kingsnakes from a certain area in northern FL, so they could sell more snakes. I believe the original population was from around Jacksonville and not even along the Suwannee River. These variants possess intermediate characters between the 2 recognized kingsnake forms in FL, the eastern (Lampropeltis getula getula) and the Florida kingsnake (L. g. floridana). It has nothing to do with a released exotic form.

Don't feel bad, we have all been misled by the pet trade. Hope this helps!

Kenney Krysko

Anyway, the Osceola-Suwannee's that Kevin had as well as several other's I have seen photos of are truly some of the nicest freakin getula found on the entire planet!..

Here is a killer wild specimen that was taken by a wildlife photographer. He wasn't even aware of just how revered this animal was at all and simply thought it was a common Florida kingsnake!

I would do freakin back-flips if I saw this thing and was able to capture it. Heck, just to even SEE one in the wild would be incredible to me..........

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This was a great post Doug! I love that phenotype as well! The old post you "doug" up is a nice touch too.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Sure thing bro. It was happy to dip back into some of their history and stories too, as I have been very interested in these for a long time now. BTW, that one in the photograph I posted was seen and photographed on the west coast around the Tampa area. Nick also knows about that particular animal being photographed by the guy too, and we have both been in contact with the guy that photographed it.

I wish that was me behind the camera lens that day..LOL!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks a lot for that post, Doug. Wow, someone seriously needs to go back and find more of those in the wild. If I lived in the area, I'd do what I could to find me some. Yeah, I imagine there would be quite a bit of variation with an intergrade like that. I like the ones with band width like the one you posted and the one in the book. The thin banded specimens don't look as nice, IMO. Nothing cooler than those natural intergrades, and Eastern x Florida crosses look nice.
-----

There used to be a fair number around, but have disappeared into the wood-work just like so many other types of snakes have over the years. There used to be all sorts of stuff that was around years ago that is totally unseen in the hobby now.

What do the ones from that area look like today? if different then maybe those few animals found were just a pattern type from one end of the spectrum within a clucth. You know, like when you have a clucth and there is one dark and one light and everything inbetween. Maybe the intergrade zone has clucthes that look more like normal Floridas and and because of the eastern king influence they babies drift to more of an eastern look at times. But rare? WHo knows?

I wonder if that could explain their rarity. I never collected there but know someone that lives there. If he has a board line or set up A/C spots maybe I can arrange a trip.

See now you got me curious about them.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, no doubt any given snakes in the entire general area there can(and do) have considerably varying phenotypes. This would certainly also depend greatly on the different percentage possibilities of either subspecies influence in any given individual snake pairing's genetic makeup. There are many snakes in that area with more Eastern phenotypes and others with more standard peninsular Florida king phenotypes. As you said, any given offspring from any of the clutches could look very different from one another and also go on to produce very different looking phenotypes themselves. some looking much more desirable than others would.

The snakes that tended to display closer to a 50-50 ratio of each type would be the most prized and sought after, but I am very sure these would also be fewer and far between than many others from the general area too. I would bet the originator of Suwannee Reptiles bred these more uncommon types together, or even possibly selectively picked a few babies from some clutches of maybe not so great looking one's together that DID display more of the 50-50 look he was striving for to perpetuate these more desired phenotypes.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, it seems like you can only make so many different combinations of colors and pattern until there's not much else that can be made without highly resembling another morph.
-----

"Yeah, it seems like you can only make so many different combinations of colors and pattern until there's not much else that can be made without highly resembling another morph"

Yeah, although that can certainly be true many times with some morphs not being distinguishable by their phenotype alone, you need to also figure all the different phenotype combinations that can be made with a multi-morph homozygous snake, even though it may "look" like a more common single or double morph mutation. That is what John meant by the cornsnake comment where many of them look like everyday snows but the other genes are completely "masked" by the amel x anery(snow) genes.

Same thing with a hybino or pearl Hondo, the hybino looks like an everyday amel as well by phenotype alone. And of course the pearl Hondo(hypo x amel x anery) looks like an everyday snow.

Anyway, it really all depends on many things, and if your objective is to simply have a very specific and unigue "look", or have certain multi-morphs in one animal that can in turn produce more types of different morphs in a given clutch even though the individual snake itself might not show each one from possibly being masked by some of the others it has. This will be bound to happen with some multi morph floridana too that also contain t-negative x anery, or t-neg x axanthic in they genetic composition. This will likely mask things over just like the snowcorn and hybino combinations do.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very interesting, Doug. I didn't think about that aspect of it.
-----

Yeah, alot of times it isn't always necessarily about how unique a specific multi-morph is in appearance, but what it can actually produce when bred to other like combinations.

The "Coral Avalanche" cornsnake morph is just one good example of this that is an amel x anery x hypo x diffused. These look nothing more than a common snowcorn with muted sides but can create all sorts of other combinations with the right pairing..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But then do you have to factor in any unknown "hidden" gene that might be lurking until it finds its match in another?

To hopefully clarify: say you've been line breeding normal brooksi and suddenly a pair throws out an unexpected amel (for simplicity).

So: isn't it possible for yet another gene to be revealed with/within all these pairings? That certainly could throw a wrench in things; a fun, productive wrench, but a wrench none-the-less.

Heck yeah, that sort of stuff happens all the time and has people scratching their heads every single breeding season. It can sometimes be tough enough even when you KNOW what all the lineages are in certain multi-morph breedings, much less when unknown genetics is tossed into the mix as you said, or even possible het stuff being in their genetic equation...

cheers, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>But then do you have to factor in any unknown "hidden" gene that might be lurking until it finds its match in another?
>>
>>To hopefully clarify: say you've been line breeding normal brooksi and suddenly a pair throws out an unexpected amel (for simplicity).
>>
>>So: isn't it possible for yet another gene to be revealed with/within all these pairings? That certainly could throw a wrench in things; a fun, productive wrench, but a wrench none-the-less.

That is what "Morph Mining" is all about......lol
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Good color...that looks peanut butter......the color....

...nice.....good luck...! ...

....mellow....LOL...you sure it's ..wait......well...they are nice.....just always hungry.....!
-----
........JY

Nah, this line handles like a limp worm on musccle relaxents. Jeremy who posts here, can testify to this.

Same with the Albescents. Their scales feel soft to the touch and they don't tense up like other Florida lines.

Different lines and morphs that follow those lines make up for different characteristics. Like the Mosaics which always seem to be hiding under shavings and are extremly shy (secretive) during feeding. They don't want you to watch.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering if that was just my mosaic or not...
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Hey Rainer,
That Jelly x Axanthic looks awfully familiar. Glad she is doing well for you. Hopefully I will get some more shots of her brother to you soon,
Take care,
Jeff
www.4lakessnakes.com