Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Among others posting in the classifieds. THIS JUST IN... If you advertise a locality bull that is het for patternless, whiteside, axanthic, blah, blah, blah, it is not a friggin locality Stillwater anymore. If you cross a Kingsville red with a Stillwater hypo, it is NO LONGER A LOCALITY ANIMAL!!! Class dismissed!

Very much agreed!
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Genesis 1:1

Agree with you but its also the buyer who has to open his eyes.
I'm one of them, I've bought 1.1 Kingsville red 66% het patternless and axanthic and 0.1 Patternless Kingsville red 66% het axanthic.
They are 1 year now but are not red animals as I did hope.
I don't blame Jonel for that as I should have informed myself better before buying them.
Nice looking snakes but not the red animals I was hoping for.
But they will stay with me because of their genetics as I like all what is patternless and axanthic.
I just have to cross fingers that they are het for something.

Hi John

I agree that the locality reference shouldn't be used when making mixed color morphs.

Buying anything with red gene can be a guessing game, especially when out crossed into new bloodlines. John you got some really nice snakes anyway you look at it. The offspring you produce have a better chance of being red.

Jason

Let me add pictures to my words.
Nice speciamens but no Kingsville Reds as you can see.

oups, put one picture double
here comes the missing one

Great looking snakes John. One of the nicer looking speckled/patternless I have seen.

Jason

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1696049,1696049
I was under the impression that locality meant the snakes or their descendents came directly from the wild location. In this case it would be Waynoka, OK.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Jonel odes say in his ad that they are NON-LOCALE SPECIFIC (his capital letters)
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

2011 White-sided "Stillwater" Hypo Bull Snakes - possible het Patternless Axanthic - FEMALES!

Posted by Jonel Lopez (Contact Me!)
October 24, 2011 at 08:15:28

Registered PetHobbyist User since 2002-02-22
View All Ads (5) | This Category Only (4)

Hi Everyone

I have produced and making available this rare combination of 2 Bull Snake mutations. The "Stillwater" Hypo gene produced a very unique variation of White-sided animal. They came out with ruby colored eyes and chocolate brown that transitions to burnt orange then back to chocolate brown bordering their blotches. Very different from the Ghost/Ivory Bull Snakes available today. These came out of a clutch from a Quadruple het pair for Patternless, White-sided, Axanthic, and "Stillwater" Hypo.

I currently have the following available:

0.2 White-sided "Stillwater" Hypos 66% possible het for Patternless and Axanthic

All of them are eating FT fuzzies and are ready to go to new homes. Asking for $300 SHIPPED. Please check out my other Bull Snake morphs that I have for sale if you'd like to get a male for these girls. Payments can be made via Paypal.com or M.O. SORRY NO TRADES TAKEN AT THIS TIME. Let me know A.S.A.P. if you're interested. Thanks and hope to hear from you soon.

Jonel
info@spsnakes.com
408-655-5118 pst

Lol. Now I see it. How did I ever miss that??? This ad above mentions nothing of the sort. The title clearly insinuates a locality animal is available. "2011 White-sided "Stillwater" Hypo Bull Snakes - possible het Patternless Axanthic - FEMALES!" If you breed a Stillwater to a Lubbock bull, then bred the offspring later on to a Kankakee bull, what locality would you call them? Once you cross a locality bull with anything other than a bull from the SAME locale, it is no longer a locality bull, PERIOD!

Locality: North America or maybe just Earth, or possibly even just on the far edge of the Milky Way... LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Please try to understand this. Stillwater Hypo is not a locality reference. It looks like a locality reference but it is not. It may have once been a locality reference, but pretty much everyone who knows pits know that it isn't any longer.

Stillwater Hypo is the term the hobby has adopted for a more or less specific appearance resulting from a simple recessive gene. If you leave "Stillwater" out of the description, you are left with just "hypo", which is generally thought of as regular or normal hypo, which is a different appearance resulting from a different gene. So to accurately refer to the animal in question, you MUST call it a Stillwater Hypo.

Is Stillwater Hypo a great name? No. Many here are aware that the locality of the originating snake was fuzzy to begin with. Since it showed up at a roundup it may have been collected 50 or 100 miles away. And the hypo part of the name seems kinda weak as many of these snakes have substantial amounts of black. Nevertheless, it is the name that has become established. If you can think of a better one and think you can get the entire hobby to switch to it, go for it. And then you can take on "milksnake". Or, you could just dish out some more crap directed at Jonel. Incidentally, I don't know Jonel but I got a Stillwater Hypo from him a few years ago, direct from the Ginter line.

(Please try to understand this. Stillwater Hypo is not a locality reference. It looks like a locality reference but it is not. It may have once been a locality reference, but pretty much everyone who knows pits know that it isn't any longer.

Stillwater Hypo is the term the hobby has adopted for a more or less specific appearance resulting from a simple recessive gene. If you leave "Stillwater" out of the description, you are left with just "hypo", which is generally thought of as regular or normal hypo, which is a different appearance resulting from a different gene. So to accurately refer to the animal in question, you MUST call it a Stillwater Hypo.

Is Stillwater Hypo a great name? No. Many here are aware that the locality of the originating snake was fuzzy to begin with. Since it showed up at a roundup it may have been collected 50 or 100 miles away. And the hypo part of the name seems kinda weak as many of these snakes have substantial amounts of black. Nevertheless, it is the name that has become established. If you can think of a better one and think you can get the entire hobby to switch to it, go for it. And then you can take on "milksnake". Or, you could just dish out some more crap directed at Jonel. Incidentally, I don't know Jonel but I got a Stillwater Hypo from him a few years ago, direct from the Ginter line.) I'm really proud of ya. Good luck with that snake. Your "reasoning?" may float with some, but not with everyone. I suppose if you inject some nonlocality morphs into the Miami County axanthics, you will still call locality? Last I checked, Stillwater is a location, yes. I'm sure anyone could inject extenuating circumstances into any locality topic. One could argue that the axanthic line from Miami County was a fluke. Maybe someone produced that morph and it got out on said collector, just to be "caught" by someone thinking it was a natural morph. Whatever. I see your point but don't agree with it wholeheartedly. My apologies to Jonel for being abrasive.

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It is actually a locality reference. How can a bloodline suddenly NOT be? I know why...when they are bred into other lines. It is a locality reference as long as they are simply bred true. Simple as that, end of story.

Shouldn't things simply be called for what they are, and should breeders try to label things correctly? When things are labeled with a certain locality, the buyer actually may be tempted to think that they are actually getting that certain locality. Unfortunately, when things are labeled one way, when in actuality, they are not, that is when confusion starts.

Calling something a locality when it isn't is still different than knowing something IS a locality when it is.

Adopting the same lazy attitude that people have been calling certain looking corns, Okeetee corns, when it fact they are not, doesn't have to spread to other scenes with other species.

Non-locality does not mean the snake is any less valuable, cool, or what not. Just label them properly! It is not that hard to do. The sad thing is, there are breeders out there that may put the label on their snakes as a selling point. Using the excuse that they if LOOK like a Stillwater hypo, they must be labeled that way, is all about making money, due to the uniqueness of this locality morph. If breeders are worried about not selling them because of a generic term of " hypo ", and they then slap on the " Stillwater " label as a selling point, then what can anyone conclude, other than some unprofessional selling tactic being played out?

Proper labeling would avoid any of this, along with being honest with intentions.
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Genesis 1:1

While this is true and the OP is correct(it drives me nuts to see all these "Kingsville Stillwater blah, blah falsely advertised), I believe Jonel explains this very thing in his ad doesn't he? It says it is indeed an outcross, but it is the Stillwater hypo gene, as opposed to the standard hypo, which is what makes these animals distinct. I don't know how he could have described it any better - most people wouldn't have even bothered to have taken the time to do this. BTW, I don't even know the guy
PS Pituophis

He does explain it for the most part, but at the same time, it depends on which ad as well. Why not simply call them bullsnakes from outcrossed breedings? That is what they are. For the one ad that he is selling these " Stillwater hypos ", he labels them as just that, while at the same time, calling them non-locale specific, in the same ad. That, to me and many others, is contradictory, and causes much confusion. Just explain what was used to create them, and don't slap on a popular locality-morph name to it, when they are NOT that locality morph.

Other ads though, the snakes are labeled White-Sided Stillwater hypos, and White-Sided bullsnakes that are " het for Stillwater hypo ", which is not even possible to begin with, as localities themselves are not a recessive gene/morph. In the ads, they are not explained as non-locale specific. See how confusing then it can be to people who just simply want to receive what they are paying for?

Nothing against the snakes or the breeder, in any way, shape, or form. The snakes in the ad are simply gorgeous!!! It is just frustrating to try to find the real thing nowadays, and if someone is going to spend hard earned money on what they think they are receiving, it is only professional courtesy of the breeder to be 100% detailed and explanatory in the breedings, to avoid the buyer NOT actually receiving what they thought they were getting, in the long run.

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Genesis 1:1

Yes, you also see snakes advertised as "het for red", a line bred, selectively bred trait :{ Maybe if you breed a very nice looking snake to a drab one you get "hets for beautiful" LOL It makes more of a difference if someone is just getting into the genus, because someone in the know, as somebody else mentioned, will automatically know that that a "Red het WS" is not a locality animal.

Agreed!
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Genesis 1:1

The Kingsville red is a locality animal. But if bred with a crumbly, I would no longer call it a locality animal.

This brings us to a whole new topic...if you want true locality animals, the only real way to be sure is to catch them yourself or know the guy who caught them...it's as simple as that.

I gotta disagree to a point. The terms Stillwater and Kingsville IMO represent certain genetic expressions, like charcoal and anery A, or the various forms of hypomelanism in corns. Similar expression, but inncompatible genetics. Breeding a Stillwater hypo to a hypo will not produce hypos, so knowing what FORM of expression you have in your genetics is important to know for future breeding efforts. Othwise you could wind up with incompatible "hypos" or "reds".

" Similar expression, but inncompatible genetics. Breeding a Stillwater hypo to a hypo will not produce hypos, so knowing what FORM of expression you have in your genetics is important to know for future breeding efforts. Othwise you could wind up with incompatible "hypos" or "reds". "

I completely agree!! Great points!

My main point is, when it is no longer a locality morph, just call it for what it is. If a locality Stillwater hypo was used in the breeding, make sure to mention it in the ads or at a show, heck, even write it all out on the label if you have to. It would be ridiculous not to. Just don't LABEL them what they are not, in reality, anymore, if they were not bred true.
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Genesis 1:1

I understand your point. And I do agree that outbred offspring from locality Stillwaters are no longer Stillwater locality animals. Same with outbred offspring from Kingsville reds. However, I think the name has become synonymous with the morph, much like Applegate gophers/pyros, etc. The name has stuck and folks just never called it anything else like Hypo B, DISCERN bulls, etc. LOL. I really am not sure at this point how the differentiation of the locality from the morph is best done. Maybe put the genetics in parentesis like "Stillwater" hypo?

" I really am not sure at this point how the differentiation of the locality from the morph is best done. Maybe put the genetics in parentesis like "Stillwater" hypo? "

Maybe? Or add the term " Outcross "?
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Genesis 1:1

I agree with this. Stating Stillwater Hypo is declaring which hypo gene the animal has. I wouldn't consider a "stillwater hypo" to be Stillwater locality without more background info, as the term is used for a recessive trait which could be bred into any bull.

Not saying calling them Stillwater Hypos was a responsible thing to do, but here we are now and determining pure locality Stillwaters has become difficult because of it.
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Nick Puder
www.rnpreptiles.com

Well, I wrote the above impatiently. It is not quite true that one must call a snake with the trait in question a Stillwater Hypo. I'm surprised and grateful that nobody called me to task on this. There is, of course, another name for the Stillwater trait that sidesteps the locality issue: Golden Hypo. I presume that it was coined for that reason. I'm guessing that its origination has been discussed here in the past, but I don't recall reading it.

As a solution to the locality quandry, "Golden Hypo" is a great effort. I think it is commonly understood. Yet it has not really caught on. It seems mostly used in ads as a sort of redundancy, e.g. "Golden Stillwater Hypo" or "Golden Hypo (Stillwater)". It has not been able to stand on its own in the marketplace. It probably will never replace "Stillwater Hypo" as it seems to lack the cachet that "Stillwater" carries. So I think "Stillwater Hypo" will remain the more marketable term. IMO, its continued use will reflect not greediness or misrepresentation but simple good business sense. Having said that, full disclosure (additional information, not avoidance of the term "Stillwater" is always to be hoped for. As long as pure lines such as Ginter's (are there any others?) exist, outcrossed snakes are better described as such.

The smiley face was a typo. Meant to close parentheses, not make a joke. Sorry.

Nicely put Ian!

There is a reason people tried to change the name to Golden Hypo. Its because the they where out crossing it to keep the gene stronger. So it wasn't locality any more.

Jason.

Hey Everyone

Since I was pretty much singled-out/called-out on this post I feel that I'm responsible to clearing any confusion that may have risen from my ads and/or my post(at the very least). I don't visit the forums often and was surprised to see my name addressed in such a manner. I do empathize with the points that have risen on this post and I am first to say that I will never-ever try to misrepresent my animals and their offspring. That's one of the reasons why I try to put as much needed information on my ads and post when I can. If anyone have or had any questions or doubts about any given animal or any given information I am very open and will respond to any email or phone calls to answer questions on any animals that I have or may be selling. Although, I am surprised too have taken the time to me aware of their concerns with either (easier)forms of communication. With our hobby under fire from different fronts, may it be your local or state laws, I feel that we should be united on helping each other rather than bashing each other because they like or don't like morphs , locality types, or what not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and have equal rights to like or not like as long as it is done respectfully and within the laws given to us.

Please read part II of this post. Thanks.
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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

Please support the
UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS

Promoting awareness, education, responsible care,
and professional unity for Herps

. . . continued.

I do understand that working with locality animals can be very tricky and a lot of people are sensitive and downright touchy with the matter. That's why I've kept from introducing the Kingsville LOCALITY reds and Stillwater LOCALITY hypos to other bullsnakes mutations for a very lone time until the last couple of years. Like I mentioned in Part I, I would specify in the ad or post that any given animals ARE OR NOT LOCALITY animals. With that said, some of these out-crossing projects are fairly new (F1s)and a lot of these new morph/color combinations is an ongoing project and have not reached their FULL potential. I do disclose these types of information to any potential buyer so they can make an informed decision. The real confusion that may have risen on my post is that I have used quotations ( "quote your locale/morph" ) to convey the lineage of a said morph but did not to say that they are pure locality or not. Again, note that I DID NOT specify that these are LOCALITY "quote your locale/morph" animals. I simply did this to make sure the potential buyer have an informed decision that they are getting a certain type of hypo gene and not the other. Thank you everyone for pointing this out and I'm happy to say that I have revised any ads that was in question and have specified that they are Hypo (Stillwater gene/OUTCROSS/NON-LOCALE SPECIFIC) multiple times on the ad. I hope this would clear up any confusion a newbie or even an experienced Pituophis afficionado may have. I'll just thank everyone for stating your points and giving me and others suggestions to what or how this things SHOULD be done. If anyone have any concerns and or suggestions please call or email me at your leisure and I will respond as soon as I'm able. For those who know me and even the ones have done business or gone herping with I try my best to make sure I do not do anybody any wrong. I would be the first to tell "lets make this right" if a concern arises.

please read Part III
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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

Please support the
UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS

Promoting awareness, education, responsible care,
and professional unity for Herps

. . . continued

I thank everyone again that posted and voiced their opinions and concerns. I will have to say that i think this issue have been addressed on my part. If there are anymore that comes up, please don't hesitate to notify me as soon as possible.

NOTE TO ALL, this series will be my only posts for this forum thread as I don't want to engage on any public arguing or bashing as I have seen in the past on other threads. I hope we stay mature and civil in these public forums. Thanks for everyone's time.
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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

Please support the
UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS

Promoting awareness, education, responsible care,
and professional unity for Herps

Thank you Jonel for posting your thoughts.

You have absolutely gorgeous animals, my friend!! You have nothing but the highest respect from myself.
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Genesis 1:1

Well said Jonel.

I like the part where you stated this

"With our hobby under fire from different fronts, may it be your local or state laws, I feel that we should be united on helping each other rather than bashing each other because they like or don't like morphs , locality types, or what not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and have equal rights to like or not like as long as it is done respectfully and within the laws given to us."

Jason

It should read . . . "Although, I am surprised that none have taken the time to make me aware of their concerns with either (easier)forms of communication."
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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

Please support the
UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS

Promoting awareness, education, responsible care,
and professional unity for Herps

It is referring to the hypo gene at work, not locality. It's not rocket science.
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Pituophis c. annectans
Senticolis t. intermedia
Rhinechis scalaris
Elaphe bairdi
Lampropeltis t. campbelli
Lampropeltis m. thayeri

1.1 turbo corns
1.1 jungle corns
1.1 thayeri hybrids (het albino)