Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Check these guys out.A real good friend of mine was lucky enough to find a gravid female back in May.She laid 5 nice eggs and all the babies came out like these.
These are 100% pure locale Mt.Springs animals.Mt springs is down in the desert of San Diego county not to far from Borrego.
They look like fourth or fifth generation line bred for wide white.I can't wait to see this line down the road.I bet they will be 60/40 in no time.

this is the male I got from the clutch

here is his sister.

Now, here is a pair of f5 line bred for width Scissors animals.I can't wait to see what the f6 babies will look like.

male,

female,

I was also lucky to pick up this little boy from another gravid w/c from Scissors.

L8r Shannon

Love the Scissors corssing.

you should explain more about that unique area to people who are not familiar with calif herping.
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Wow, those are very nice, Shannon! Welcome back. I really like that first wide striped king. I've spent several nights in Scissors trying to find me a striper, but have only found banded's so far.
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I've spent several nights in Scissors trying to find me a striper, but have only found banded's so far.

The first time I went there , which was like 35 years ago, I was told to go to Scissors crossing for desert stripers. So I went and I got there at about 3pm in the afternoon. Right when i came up to where the road "T" I made a U turn. As soon as I made the turn in the crossing, I looked at the dirt shoulder and i could not beleive my esyes.. on the Northeast corner shoulder in the dirt was an adult crawling. I was stunned and then thought this place is just too easy. LOL! Well i found out in later years it ain't that easy. Just amazing to find one on my first trip , during the day, in the sun and right were "X" marks the spot. i will never forget that day.
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hahaha Cool story. Yeah, sometimes it is just that easy.
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Some real nice pick ups there Shannon. That first one is really sweet looking!
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Jimmy Tintle

Love those wide stripes.....reminds me of Don Shores' wide stripes. I wonder if Don's originated with som Scissors Crossing animals.....

And glad to see you are back and doing better bro!

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Wide stripes and Scissors crossing does not equal the same thing.

the reason Scissors crossing is a unique are is because there the lifezones diverge very drastically from high elevation to desert. It is the only area where desert stiped kingsnakes are found. And it is a small area. This is a snake (morph) that should be protected IMO and not all the Mountain kings and boas.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Oh I also meant to say that the two pics you showed are not Scissors crossing stripers. They are light brown. Scissors local has Black and not a brownish color. Not to say that one could not make, or hasn't made a fake Scissors crossing striper. So really you have to know the lineage.

With the crossing of coastal stripers and abberents into desert phase calis. You will get white stripers. But as Hubbs would say those are Frankenstein snakes.

A true desert striper is a Scissors crossing locale. There is just something diferrent about the Scissors crossing loaclity animals athat makes them cool,.. I can't put my finger on what makes them better? Maybe it is the character or dispostion..I don't know. But anyone who has worked with them and other Cali morphs probably understands what i am talking about.

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I never said they were Scissor Crossing animals...... Just wondered if Don's wide stripes could have derived somewhere up the line with some Scissor crossing animals........ Then possibly outcrossed later on......

Thanks for all the info though.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I never said they were Scissor Crossing animals...... Just wondered if Don's wide stripes could have derived somewhere up the line with some Scissor crossing animals........ Then possibly outcrossed later on......

Oh sure they could have Scissors crossing in them. The only reason i wanted to make a distiction is because there have been people who thought that anything with a white stripe is a scissors crossing locale. Most don't know these true desert stripers come from a very small area and that is the only place they can be found. I hope the lines get preserved with captive breeding.
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I agree Rainer.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I don't think Scissor's populations are in much danger. It's really hard to flip snakes in the desert due to the soil type and extreme temperatures. Even if you put boards out it would be really hard. That leaves road cruising and walking which you really can't collect enough of them, fast enough to damage the population. But the main thing is that the habitat is not desireable for houses so it's not likely to get developed.

I think the Carlsbad-Oceanside populations are in more danger. Those areas are desireable and have been rapidly turning into housing, shopping and industrial developments. I don't know if the kingsnakes at Camp Pendelton are the same but if they are then the military property would save a great chunk of habitat.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Those Mt. Spgs. are exceptionally nice. It will be interesting to see what they produce down the road. By the way, glad you are feeling well enough to be adding to your collection.

--Dennis

And locality to boot!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Those Mountain springs locale Kings are awesome probably one of the hardest snakes to find in that area. I love the Baja influence on them. Out of all the times I've been there I've never found one.

The S2 stripers are unique. Like Rainer said it's the only place you really get the true blk and wht phase which is even rare there when you do find a striper there. Out of the 30 nights I've herped that road in over 20 years I've only found two stripers. One was brown and wht and one was a fresh hit which was blk and wht. Tons of bandeds though with many color phases. My personal favorites are the nice chocolate brown and white ones from Santa Ysabel up the hill from there. I work with a pair of them I collected and they're one of my favorite Cal Kings. Very handsome snakes.

True Scissors stripers have a low side stripe. In the late 70's many S2 stripers were bred to coastal snakes with high yellow side stripes then bred back to each other to get the high white sides. This of coarse was way before locality breedings were important to most collectors. The market was flooded with them and you see that with many of the snakes out there these days. The true S2's were only being selectively breed in the past 10 years or less even. Neat stuff!

PL

True Scissors stripers have a low side stripe. In the late 70's many S2 stripers were bred to coastal snakes with high yellow side stripes then bred back to each other to get the high white sides.

HA HA ! I forgot all about that. Good memory!
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Paul, In 1992 I went to Tim Turmezie's house in Tehachapi and he was already working with the scissors animals trying to widen there stripe.I think he was on f2 or f3 by then.His stock had been collected in the early to mid 80's by Limburg and Keesler.

He said he could get about one scale wider by each generation by just selectivley breeding for that.
I lost touch with him for many years then back in (07) I went back to his place and bought some of his breeders.By then he had f5 and f6 animals that where just insane.
The two babies I posted where produced from siblings to this pair.

one of the cool things is you can and will still throw a banded here and there even when breeding full striped animals.This one below was produced by the awesome pair above.Sure wish I would have kept this one back.

now, here is a pair I have that are just f1 animals.This is what they would look like if you could find one today out there.What a long way Tim came from some 20 years ago huh?

L8r

HA ! I just found some pics of me and Tim sharing a table at orlando '92.

Shannon,
What do you think of Tim's high white cal kings? Do you think they are whiter than other lines you have seen? Also, do you know what locales he used to make them so nice?
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Yeah you right. It has been more years now that I think about it. Now that I think about it a few guys in the early 90's were working with them. I had a pair of pure S2 stripers in the late 90's that in two separate years a banded came out of each clutch. Those were low band count and wide. Nothing like those mountain springs though!!!

Yeah Man, we are getting old.LOL.....
Hard to believe we have been doing this hobby well over 25 years already huh man?

L8r Shannon

p.s. I loved your article in Herp Nation on Baja.It was like I was right there when I was reading it.Great read man,and you should be pretty proud of the things you have found etc.. down there in banditos land.

L8r

Thanks for the props, Man. Glad you liked the article. I'm going to do another one soon. I'm thinking NV maybe. I don't know. Hard to believe it's been that long since we first started. 1990 or even the 80's at times seems like last week. So many fond memories. Here's to many more to come and our future endeavors!!!!

PL

ha ha ! Paul was a young kid when i first saw him at the herp meetings.

Both you and Shannon have so much experience and know so much about the hobby. It makes me wonder about some of these folks who post on here who say they have been keeping snakes for 20-30 years Makes me wonder if they were stuck with their iguana and redtail boa in their room since they were kids.

I had this book in the early sixties.

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HaHa Rainer! I stared going to those meetings when I was 14. If me and Shannon are getting old that must make you ancient lol?

The key to knowing the animals you keep/breed is knowing them well in the wild. You can never learn enough or ever completely figure them out but being out in the field for 20 something years helps!!

PL

I had that book too, in the 70's.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I still have mine. tucked away. of course the pages are all falling out. But I must have studied that book for days.

Then i got the field guide to western herps by stebbins . That became my bible for many years thereafter. It even tells the secretest keys to finding certain species but people just read right over it and don't use their heads.
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Ha!

I got that book for Christmas back in '75. I still have it, although my first dog ate the back cover in the late 70's. It was my bible for many years as well.

Will

Those Mtn. Springs are super nice. What's neat about them is that since they are wild caught locality-specific there is no striping in their lineage.
Most of the captive bred generic 50/50's and high whites seem to have striping in their backround and it shows in the form of broken aberrant bands and partial stripes. It's hard to find a high-white that doesn't show traces of striping. I think it will be possible with these Mtn. Springs' to develop 50/50 's and high-whites that are pure bandeds and that would be really cool and unique.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Quite nice! Don't you also have some nice "black and white" Cal kings from near your area? Seam to recall them being quite nice as well.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Oh heck yeah, The kings from my area are very nice and true desert phase but there white is pretty narrow.About 1 out of every 20 I see have three scales wide white but tats about it.
This is probably the best one I have ever found in my life in my area.

L8r Shannon