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Congrats Adam...
Glad you got one to hatch.
It is interesting how much it looks like alot of the L. m. thayeri many have produced over the decades in captivity.

I wonder how much gene flow from the L. m. mexicana (mex mex) range to the south has merged over the eons into the gene flow of L. m. thayeri to the north? I also wonder if wild animals like this exist in the wild (Natural intergrades). And have any of these wild natural intergrades been collected in the past and thought to be L. m. thayeri.........Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

FR even mentioned once in a thread here how alot of what we call L. m. thayeri today key out as L. m. mexicana (mex mex).

Glad you will represent them as Mex Mex X Thayeri hybrids though.
If I were you I would not let anyone that plans on breeding mexicana have it......Lineage is lost downstream of you ya know......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Its funny that you mentioned that about the natural hybridization of these two snakes. I was thinking the same thing about the nelson and the honduran... They look so much alike. Like I said before, the lady who sold me the Mex Mex had it marked as a Thayeri. This is what ultimately lead to this result in the first place.

I would think this is an eye opener for reputable breeders everywhere. This probably does happen in the wild with a number of species.

I will leave that conversation for the more experienced herpers out there.

One of the other deceased neonates almost made it to full maturity. It had the same pattern/colors as well.

I am sure that if I did put to babies together, I would see some pattern/color changes.

I will definately keep this one...
Any further hybrid projects will be sold as is. No need to be decieving.
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I couldn't have seen it through without you...
Those flies had me scared for sure.
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>>I couldn't have seen it through without you...
>>Those flies had me scared for sure.

No problem...I have no reason not to help someone out.....

Congrats again Adam.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Its funny that you mentioned that about the natural hybridization of these two snakes.

There is no records of these two subspecies intergrading.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

""This probably does happen in the wild with a number of species.""

It certainly does, but as mentioned before it has not been recorded with these two subspecies.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Its funny that you mentioned that about the natural hybridization of these two snakes. I was thinking the same thing about the nelson and the honduran... They look so much alike.

Check out the range maps....they don't even come that close to each other......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Check out the range maps....they don't even come that close to each other......"

LOL...
Like I said, I will leave that conversation for the more experienced herpers out there.
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>>LOL...
>>Like I said, I will leave that conversation for the more experienced herpers out there.

LOL....Okay.......Lots of tri colored snakes appear to be similar, but there are meristic differences with them all.....Unless you ask the new Nuclear DNA scientists who have already forgot about phenotypical expression.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Lineage is lost downstream of you ya know..."

...and that my friends, says it all. Thanks John, that phrase sums it up perfectly. Regardless of the original breeder's good intentions, somewhere down the line the damage will be done. Thanks buddy.

Will

Hi John, I actually said, many if not most of the original animals found in the field, keyed out to be L.m.mexicana. From the keys that Bill Garska had.

Also, there is no gene flow from Where mex mex are normally found, Valley of the phamtoms, Yellow(armarillo sp) and Alverez. to where Thayeri are being found. That is currently.

the thought of geneflow is very interesting. As a species extents its range, it actually leaves the old type behind as it adapts to different(slightly) habitats.

Or at one time the habitat was all the same. Which is no longer the case. So geneflow just does not happen and may have never happened. Its sorta of a bird or mammal concept. You know, animals that can actually travel long distances.

These type reptiles may never leave a few hundred square meters their entire life. So to travel a few hundred miles to continue geneflow, is not going to happen, unless we move them. Cheers

>> Also, there is no gene flow from Where mex mex are normally found, Valley of the phamtoms, Yellow(armarillo sp) and Alverez. to where Thayeri are being found. That is currently.

But there is relict gene flow, eh?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

And if there were any drift over the the countless centuries of say 50 feet per year, over the course of just the past 10,000 years it would be a difference of 95 miles..

Our tiny little lifetimes amount to absolutely nothing in the grand sceme of the earth's dynamics and what really goes on over long endless reriods of time.

The term "time" is very relative indeed, as 10,000 years to the earth and the animals on it is a mere single water droplet in an olympic-sized swimming pool.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

......meant to say "periods of time" not reriods of time..LOL!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think things happened a lot quicker than that.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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of course some "things" happen alot quicker, and by the same token some things take MUCH, MUCH longer. It all depends on what things. There are endless reasons and natural scenarios that take place and HAVE taken place that most people can't even begin to comprehend.

I just thought it was interesting about the great distance over a long period of time is all. I don't really want to argue on the king forum about the age of the universe or the crab nebula galaxy, or plate tectonics and continental drift, etc...
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Nothing to argue. Things happen quicker. For sure.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Hi Doug, color and pattern migrate very quickly. So to judge geneflow based on one looks like another is naive.

ALso geneflow is a funny concept when the types of animals are physically seperated by unsuitable habitat and have been for tens of thousands of years.

Mexicana are clearly a mountain island species. that is they occur at higher elevation seperated by low unsuitable valleys.

Ruths, mex mex, thayeri, pyro, zonata, greeri, are all elevation species, a few places zonatas occur to sea level.

Alterna occurs in both montane and low elevation rocky habitats

All these types are seperated by unsuitable habitat, so gene flow currently is not going to occur.

The geneflow concept is really outdated with many many species.

But your right over millions of year, we have no idea what will occur, or even what has occurred.

I once built a timeline exhibit. It was 67 feet long. Man has only been on earth the last 1/4 inch.

"But your right over millions of year, we have no idea what will occur, or even what has occurred.

I once built a timeline exhibit. It was 67 feet long. Man has only been on earth the last 1/4 inch."

Hi Frank,....

Yes, that is really all I was saying, and I certainly agree wholeheartedly with alot of the other things you said as well.

Things never stay exactly the same, and do tend to change at all sorts of different rates depending on many different factors. Some of the factors are pretty well understood, and some definitely not.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

In any given case, can we authoritatively discuss gene flow without a full understanding of the rate of climate change? We’re throwing around terms like millions of years when in fact < 10,000 years might go a long long way towards creating or eliminating barriers of unsuitable habitat. I’ve heard the desert SW was quite different a mear thousand years ago. As Doug pointed out, on a 67’ long timeline, man has been here a quarter of an inch. I’m not sure we can measure a few thousand years or even if the separation that occurs in that time frame is meaningful.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Very true Tony. I remember when I was talking about the past "Ice Age" (10,000 years or so ago)here about 2 years ago and what sort of impact it might have had on things, as well as the Outer Banks Island chain when Davis came in and told me that he believed .."all of the snakes have evolved to what they look like today within the last 50 years, 100 years tops"

HAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!......truly one of THE funniest(and most absurd) things I have ever heard in my entire life!..

Maybe the Eastern kings just prior to that were bright purple with hot pink paisley-print patterns..LOL!

Alot of people can't even grasp that things were even around LOOOONG before their short little human lives for countless eons and millenia.

As you already undoubtedly know, alot of the barren habitats we have on earth today were once very different thriving lush tropical habitats. Just this one occurrence was so incredibly long ago that many other DRASTIC things have also taken place between over time that it is virtually impossible to comprehend by most folks.

Even the massive super volcano (caldera) directly underneath what is now Yellow Stone National Park has erupted in a cycle approx. every 0.6 million years in totally different locations from west to east and has left massive scars of cataclysmic distruction in a very methodical periodic path as the N. American continent slowly drifts westward over the very top of this massive magma chamber that is some 45 miles wide.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't know about 50 years but certainly in the last 500 we've had a profound impact on the environment that is bound to have had impacts on population distributions and gene flow even in areas we think pristine.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sure, no doubt there have been certain changes and events in a relatively much shorter time span that have had a profound effect on certain phenotypes and any of their given ranges than are seen today.

I would also be willing to bet that CERTAIN snakes around the planet, and even this country alone have changed very little(if any) in a far longer period too due to certain areas and micro-habitats changing at very different rates than others.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Which is exactly the point, to discuss minor pattern and color differences, with species where the populations have been isolated for hundreds if not thousands of years is sort of meaningless.

As mentioned, in the not to distant past, the southwest was very different, but the mountains were the mountains, only the valleys between the mountains were much wetter, hence relic populations of wetland reptiles still exsist.

But the point here was, geneflow, say from just north of mexico city(heartland of mexicana) to texas and az. Alterna and pyro. It no longer exsists. or even from Ruthies to mex mex, or mex mex to thayeri, Which is why they are phenotypically different.

Mex mex to thayeri, to alterna is the question, as thayeri area is intermediate. Its also high elevation to low elevation. Its also semi tropical to xeric.

On a smaller scale, pyros from each different mountain range are phenotypically different as well. And in many cases, behaviorally different. As in, choosing a different mode of survival. Even different base prey.

The question is and has been, how long do they need to be isolated to be a speceis. In the past, the animals must be morphologically different, now not so. Now its all about dna. Which appears to migrate faster then morphology. Cheers

I think when we are discussing color and pattern, relic is way to far back. Something more accurate would be successful genotypes. That is, each population has a range of color and patterns that have been successful under certain conditions and they surface from time to time. If conditions favor them, they are phenotypic for as long as they are favored.

Such species are kingsnakes have shown a high degree of polymorphism. Thayeri in particular has expressed a huge range of colors and patterns.

They also exsist in an area with a range of rock types, not like Mex mex, which is primarily limestone.

I won't argue the merits or lack of merits of species, subspecies, but its clear, Thayeri is very closely related to mex mex. But they clearly occur in a different habitat type.

i think Joe Forks would agree with this, Thayeri are not consistant enough to be considers one kind of snake. Instead that area is a meeting place for mex mex from the south, Alterna types from the north and milksnakes from lower to mid elevation. More or less a melting pot.

Whenever this type of discussion occurs, there is but one answer, in the field, these animals need more work.

In captivity, there are gene lines from all over that area, mixed up and called one.

So here you base your understanding on what comes out of your eggs, but you really have no idea if your original gene pools were the same, or many say, local specific.

From what I know, what you have in captivity is not local specific and with thayeri, it may me far more important then with other less variable species. Dang I hope this makes sense. Cheers

>> i think Joe Forks would agree with this, Thayeri are not consistant enough to be considers one kind of snake. Instead that area is a meeting place for mex mex from the south, Alterna types from the north and milksnakes from lower to mid elevation. More or less a melting pot.
>> Whenever this type of discussion occurs, there is but one answer, in the field, these animals need more work.
>> In captivity, there are gene lines from all over that area, mixed up and called one.
>> So here you base your understanding on what comes out of your eggs, but you really have no idea if your original gene pools were the same, or many say, local specific.
>> From what I know, what you have in captivity is not local specific and with thayeri, it may me far more important then with other less variable species. Dang I hope this makes sense. Cheers

Well along with Joe I agree with everything you stated Frank........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

This is all very interesting. Good info...

So if it did not occur naturally, perhaps it has already occurred unnaturally.

South Florida is being overtaken by many foreign species from much further distances than this, right?

Wouldn't it be very easy for someone to accidentally introduce the two? That is after all how this particular conversation was started in the first place.

Yes I understand the circumstances would be much different
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"Wouldn't it be very easy for someone to accidentally introduce the two?"

Countless snake pairings get "accidentally" and intentionally introduced to each other every single captive-breeding year. The main "accident" is people not knowing or caring about what they are actually introducing to each other in the first place.

The link below is just ONE great example of it from the milksnake forum. Lots of "accidents" will be produced from this pairing that will go on to make many countless more.
Link

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I just got a message from someone wanting a couple of my available thayeri females because they had an amel Cali King male and an Arizona Mt. King male and they wanted some females to breed their males too.

I politely told him I could not sell two females as it would leave me male heavy and I advised him to find some females that were the same species as his males......

I guess I will never get rich like this, huh?......LMAO!!!!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"I guess I will never get rich like this, huh?......LMAO!!!!"

LOL!!, yeah, maybe not, but you will definitely be able to sleep much better at night because of it..

I feel the very same way John.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I am not going to argue with that... I can take my lickings.

I was actually referring to this accidentally happening in their natural habitat. As my post was referring to...

Any thoughts on that?

I can completely understand your frustrations. You have spent years breeding and keeping reptiles, enjoying their natural beauty. There is now a wave of new generation herpers who just want to throw snakes together and try and change all the colors and patterns. That would frustrate the he(l out of me too!

I must admit, at first I was planning on being one of these guys. After spending the past year on this forum reading and asking questions, I am beginning to see where it is all going...

As of today I decided that I want to be a part of that. I never did want to do what everyone else is doing, or even the new thing. I guess you could say that guys like John have really made an impression on me. I can tell you that that snake I produced will never leave my family. It is the first snake I produced and will be a momentum till the day it or me dies, whichever is first. That is the best solution that I can come up with. I had plans with Hondurans and Nelsons... That won't happen...

I think that some people like that and me just need to be steered in the right direction. Let them know the consequences of there actions without pissing them off and they may actually change there minds...
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That was I don't want too!
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Good deal man!, I'm glad to hear that you are wanting to take that route instead...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I am wondering what the consequences would be??????? I am not sure where you think this is or what you think is going to happen. Its not illegal or anything. its merely folks making choices, both sides.

All crossing them in captivity does is force keepers to educate themselves. That is, instead of going by blind belief. They must learn what the animal they want looks like. That must be painful, I guess.

With the the ones you crossed, animals that are so closely related. You should keep what you think represents the animal. About whether its pure or not. Well got me, if there are intermediates in nature and there are. Then its only about people picking something out of a bunch and calling it what they want.

As far as thayeri is concerned, which one is the REAL thayeri????? As one of the original collectors of "thayeri" the ones in captivity now, do not look like the ones we found in nature. Not in the least.

People pick the pretty ones, breed them to other pretty ones and get neon litebulb snakes that look nothing like Thayeri. yet they call them pure. Odd I tell you. It makes me scratch my head.

I still call BS on most of those that say they breed for natural(pure) not many here or anywhere breed for ugly. They either catch or buy the prettyist they can fine and breed for that, or some other morph. Wheres the drab normal corns, the drab normal fla kings, the drab normal cal kings, WOW the drab normal pyros, zonatas, etc.

They are still in nature, thats where they are. hahahahahahaha

Even John, he's a great breeder, a great person and has great animals, but come on, granite mex mex. You may have to collect several hundred before you find one with a small amount of those traits.

So yes, I find this pure business a bit silly. Just do what you want, and no consequences will occur for that. Even if you produce hybrids.

About your invasives in fla. The reason they exsist is, there is very little native habitat in Fla to support native species. You have altered habitat, full of non native plants, insects, mammals, birds, frogs, lizards, snakes, etc, there's nothing natural about Fla. So what prospers is generalized species, not highly adapted species(native). The habitat those species were adapted to is gone. Good luck

I've never been one to tell people not to breed hybrids or morphs or whatever they want. But there are consequences and you mentioned on of them, the thayeri of today look nothing like the ones you guys collected from the wild. That is more due to selectively breeding for bright colors but it illustrates well what can happen to any species or subspecies. The consequences of hybridization and crossings are that hypothetically we could end up with just a few generic forms of colubrid-esque snakes, ie generic tricolr form, generic banded form, generic blotched form and generic striped form.
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The problem is, they/we have already been crossing them for over three decades. So that damage is done.

What needs to be done is keepers need to educate themselves as to what these animals are suppose to look like(actual phenotypes) and only purchase those, and breed for those. Then this pure or local thing would be of value. At least to keepers.

There is no way to TRUST a snake in a deli cup at a show, and thats been like that for a long time.

Not even from a trusted breeder. What occurred before him. You see, these animals have been bred in captivity heavily for about 4 decades. And in most cases, no one kept a direct track or control over those breedings.

In all history line breeds, none phenotypic animals are CULLED. Unless that occurs, your going to get a drift away from the original. Culled means killed off. Sad but theres reason for that. As everyone here already knows, those culls have found their way back.

Do you know that true captive breeding did not occur with normals. If it was not for morphs(albinos) no one had reason to actually learn to breed them, repeatedly and consisitantly. The whole learning process was indeed based on producing morphs. Not much as changed. Thanks for the conversation

>> Even John, he's a great breeder, a great person and has great animals, but come on, granite mex mex.

Lol.......that's the morph guy in me.......I love those speckled things........

Btw if anyone ever catches me saying the term pure let me have it. I do not call my animals pure.....I call them untainted or uncompromised by any other species or subspecies..............
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hi John, the problem is, species and subspecies is fluid, which means what WE call them is constantly changing. I have mentioned this before, what was not a hybrid in the past, can be one now.

What your producing now, may not be considered a hybrid, but may in the near future. In fact, it most likely will as the use of MTdna becomes widespread.

>>Hi John, the problem is, species and subspecies is fluid, which means what WE call them is constantly changing. I have mentioned this before, what was not a hybrid in the past, can be one now.
>>
>> What your producing now, may not be considered a hybrid, but may in the near future. In fact, it most likely will as the use of MTdna becomes widespread.

Or now nuclear DNA......it seems mitochondrial DNA is becoming older technology......

Look what happened with pyros recently......lots of captive born pyros are now hybrids with new knoblochi......the DNA study took no phenotypical appearances into account......just mtDNA data...........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...