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Perhaps now Jonel will understand why I get frustrated with what I consider misrepresentation. Posted in the classifieds of "that other site" by Eric Rogers.... Knockout Trio* of Axanthic Kingsville Red Bulls - Jonel Lopez Line - Het Speckled...

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As much as every part of my being is telling me to not let this trio go, my financial situation "trumps it" and I have to make them available. I am putting up the last of my Bull's from Jonel Lopez's (Selective Propagations) line. I have held on to this last trio until the breaking point and it's now time to find them a new home. I bought this trio plus several others from Jonel as babies. I had made a heavy investment in some of the finest and most pure Bullsnakes that I could, for part of my future projects. This trio is of Kingsville Red's produced by Jonel in 2010. Female #1 is an Axanthic Kingsville Red that is Het for Speckled and Patternless. She is absolutely perfect, feeding on f/t small adult mice. Female #2 is also an Axanthic Red Kingsville that is het for Patternless and Speckled. This female is different from the other as she has a much lighter pattern, giving her a really nice silver look, similar to Jonel's patternless. You can definitely see the beautiful violet/purple color throughout the snakes. She is also feeding on f/t small adult mice and perfect in every way.The male of the trio is a Red Kingsville that is het for Axanthic, Patternless and Speckled. His coloration is oviously different from a common Red Kingsville. It is much cleaner and very fine lines. I believe it is from Jonel's experience and precise matching of pairs for optimal results. The male is absolutely beautiful and feeding on f/t small adult mice. I have all of their lineage information from Jonel and I will send it with the snakes. For the trio, I am only asking $375 plus shipping. If you are familiar with Jonel's, his animals and his attention to detail, you will know this is a great deal. I believe hatchling females like these typically fetch $200 to $250 each. The females are not related so all you have to do is just feed the three of them for the next two years or so and then you can start putting them together and produce some amazing babies for yourself. The Patternless Kingsville Red's are arguably one of the nicest out there. THEY ARE NO LONGER FRIGGIN' KINGSVILLE ANIMALS!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is by no means an attack on Jonel, who made adjustments in his ads here and I do consider to be a stand up person. My post is simply to make people aware of being cautious of how you represent your animals. I found the above ad to be grossly misleading! Kingsville red bulls naturally occurred and are a locality specific bull, unlike crumbly's reds, which have also produced some incredible offspring. If I didn't give a rat's rear about locality, I would by Crumbly's. If I wanted a true locality specific animal, I would purchase Ginter's awesome reds. If you inject ANY OTHER GENERIC OR NON-SPECIFIC LOCALE INTO SAID BLOODLINE, CHANGE THE FRIGGIN NAME...PLEASE!

Could someone show me the true Ginter's Kingsville red please?
Or to say me where I could find photos of them?
Thank you

Here is an actual locality Kingsville, TX red bullsnake, produced by John Ginter:

John Ginter and Jason Nelson, who has another Kingsville red bull picture below, produce the real Kingsville, TX reds.

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Genesis 1:1

Now that is a good looking animal.

Thanks bro!
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Genesis 1:1

Nina,

You will not likely see a redder example of the Ginter line than Billy's snake above. Here's my three-year-old male Ginter line Kingsville from Jim Keenan. He's a horse...

...known as Ahnuld-the-Red

With all the interest in Kingsville Reds here of late (and I'm glad to see that), I should offer Ahnuld up for stud services to those of you with "of age" female Kingsvilles. Only stipulation is that you will have to find your way here (southwestern Arizona) to introduce your gal to Ahnuld...
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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."

LOCALITY Kingville, TX Red Bull Snake. Produced by John Ginter and purchased via Shannon Brown. She was part of a hand picked trio that I picked up at the Sacramento Show many years ago. This is an older pic when she was 2 y/o and she's actually a bit "redder" as an older adult. I need to take some new pics. BTW, she's the one that started the NON-LOCALITY red projects and the grand-dam of morphs that I produced and that everyone have been "discussing" lately. Hope the pics helped for future reference.

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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

Please support the
UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS

Promoting awareness, education, responsible care,
and professional unity for Herps

Now that's an absolute EYE POPPER of a Kingsville. If you ever line breed that gal with a worthy male, please consider me as a prospective recipient of a nice female hatchling. Thanks for sharing pics of her. I want one!
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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Wow! That is smokin', as are your morphs.

Sweet animal

Jason

Many thanks to everybody for these pics! When I was thinking Kingsville, I was thinking to very red Bull as DISCERN's and Jonellopez's pics, they are stunning.
That's I would try to have if possible.
Pit_fan, I am not sure to have understood: would you like that your "horse" meets my females as soon as they take age? I would like much to travel in Arizona (and not only in Arizona) but the day that I will come your beautiful Ahnould-the-red will be an old and tired horse with white scales lol!

Ahnuld, old and tired with white scales - now that's a funny thought. Actually, he's only a three-year-old going on four and between six and seven feet long (hence the reference to "horse". I hope he's around for awhile and if I ever did a breeding project, I would probably start with him IF, I could find a suitable mate or mates for him. While not flame red, he is darkening with age and what he lacks in color at this point in life, he makes up with the "size" gene.
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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."

That Kingsville area must be one hell of a herping site, LOL.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Maybe "Kingsville" should be changed to "Morphville".

We all know you don't like morphs but correct me if I'm wrong, Kingsville is a locality not a morph.
But I agree with you that people use the name for something their animals are not.

"We all know you don't like morphs but correct me if I'm wrong, Kingsville is a locality not a morph.
But I agree with you that people use the name for something their animals are not."

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First of all, oh wise seer of seers, I don't recall ever saying I dislike morphs. I happen to thing that Jonel, as well as others here, have some beautiful morphs. I don't collect them because I prefer the natural look and only buy locality specific bulls. I do think the whole morph thing has gotten a bit out of control and that is just my opinion. Kingsville is a locality. So please, humor me and find a post where I even came close to insinuating otherwise.

As a local Kingsville bulls would like have never come to notice if not for the distinctive color that was bred from it. In a very real way Kingsville is a morph first, a local second.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I couldn't agree more and good point. It is still a locality animal. Unless I am mistaken, I don't recall any axanthic, albino, whiteside etc. originating in Kingsville. Kingsville red=locality morph. Kingsville red het for any other morph trait not originating from Kingsville=outcrossed, nonlocality morph. If you pair a Kingsville red with a Crumbly red, what do you call it?

I agree with you. The mislabeling of these animals is not good.

If someone bred a Kingsville Red to a Crumbly Red. I would list, advertise or call it like this Kingsville Red X Crumbly Red. That's just my opinion

That would be totaly normal Jason and clear for everybody.

And the right opinion.

Kingsville het for Crumbly? Crumbly het for Kingsville?

Judging from what I've seen, I wouldn't be suprised if Crumbly's red bulls were not a product of Ginter's Kingsville reds. But I certainly wouldn't lable them as locale without proof. Kingsville red bulls are synonymous with the name Ginter and their origin. I wonder if anyone here accomplished what John did in preserving that awesome locality morph, which side of the fence you'd be standing on.

More McGuffins. Neither line's distinctive feature is heritable as a simple recessive Mendelian trait. Are you deliberately making the subject more confusing to make your point?

Keep in mind that I'm NOT advocating misrepresentation. I just don't think the original thread you site is unclear AT ALL.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Actually, if you see no misrepresentation in the above post, then are are definitely advocating exactly that..."This trio is of Kingsville Red's produced by Jonel in 2010. Female #1 is an Axanthic Kingsville Red that is Het for Speckled and Patternless. Female #2 is also an Axanthic Red Kingsville that is het for Patternless and Speckled. The male of the trio is a Red Kingsville that is het for Axanthic, Patternless and Speckled. The Patternless Kingsville Red's are arguably one of the nicest out there. Patternless Kingsville red??? LMAO! Gross misrepresentation as is that whole ad! Not one of the bulls in this ad should be represented as locality(Kingsville), period. But by all means, condone as you were.

I have a question, did you have any problem identifying this as a non locality project? Obviously the answer is no because you posted that it was not. What makes you think others aren't as smart as you?

The prime thing here is that anyone new enough not to KNOW this is a non-local project would also not be looking for it to be local. Further, anyone thinking this IS a local project would be extremely misinformed from the get go which is something that is not the fault of the advertiser.

It is incumbent on people wishing to keep local pure stock to 1) understand the concept and 2)ask the appropriate questions. It is not reasonable to expect 100% clarity in all ads such that this requirement is negated.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

If you see no problem with the above advertisement for the supposed Kingsville red bulls, so be it. I am glad you condone it publicly.

yet you didn't answer the question. You are trolling nothing more. I'm done giving you attention.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"yet you didn't answer the question. You are trolling nothing more. I'm done giving you attention." I think I have made myself clear, and fortunately, so have you...publicly. It it very difficult to answer questions that are written so poorly in posts that are difficult to understand. "Troll" is a word commonly used by people like you with an ulterior motive. Thanks for exposing yours. In any case, I am happy you will no longer be giving me attention. I prefer to discuss with people who have common sense and a sense of humor. Take care.

"It is incumbent on people wishing to keep local pure stock to 1) understand the concept and 2)ask the appropriate questions. It is not reasonable to expect 100% clarity in all ads such that this requirement is negated". Okay Tony, I'll give you that. You're right. People who are into pure locality need to be responsible on BOTH ends. But misrepresentation in ads needs alot of tweaking. I see where you are coming from, but I stand by my posts. A locality Kingsville red that originated from a wild caught and was bred true by the founder should not be called a locality animal once it is outcrossed. I have bought supposed locality bulls from so called bigshots here only to be dissappointed when I found out they weren't. I would hate for others to be dissappointed as I was. Enough said. Sorry to have offended you.

Maybe you misunderstood my previous post where I made a lighthearted pun in response to the funny post Herman made. I should have ended it with "lol" as well so you would have known I was kidding about "morphville". There are naturally occurring morphs. If I was to buy a "morph" I would still want something locality specific if it existed.

This is CLEARLY a morph project and the Kingsville moniker simply denote lineage of one of the traits. I don’t see an issue.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

If that's your reasoning, which is clearly reckless, then why not amplify the original localities of all those morphs involved? The poster didn't write "Kingsville X whatever", he clearly represented them as Kingsville red bulls, which they are not. Nina44 is a perfect example of why people need to stop representing outcrosses as locality.

If utilizing reason makes me reckless what are you? Last thing these forums need is another locality priest with an ax to grind. You're not even original.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Temper, temper, Tony. Sorry if my questions are getting too frustrating to answer honestly. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Not temper here though there is mixed emotion. I'm a bit amused by the familiar posturing dance of a new local fanatic as well as concerned that there is one more on the boards who will not hesitate to trash another over trivial points they have no desire to honestly discuss.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

i know whatcha mean... the other i day i saw an advertisement for a candyapplecheesestripedcubedreverseaneryA&Bambergoldustbutterwhippedcreme OKEETEE cornsnake!
the nerve of some people.
tsk
tsk
tsk

Hmph!is right
if locality means THAT much to you go catch them yourself. i dont know ANYONE that has morphs FOR their locality. which is what that group consist of MORPHS that HAVE kingsville blood in them, geez talk about a splitter
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"MORPHS that HAVE kingsville blood in them"??? Hey, you just gave me a great idea. I'll buy a vile of Kingsville red blood from Ginter, inject a drop into any friggin' morph bull and sell it as a Kingsville red bull! MO' MONEY, MO' MONEY, MO' MONEY!!!