Continued from the thread below...........In talking about this subject below, I find it kind of amazing that some may poke fun at this subject. This is not "Witchcraft". This is proven 21st century science. Understanding Reptile Parasitology can be complicated at times. And I certainly don't profess to even know half of what I would like to. I am just starting to learn. But, there are basic things in parasitology and the treatments of, that can be understood by a 12 year old. This is not rocket science. There are books that explain in simple terms many facets of it. There is the internet... Why in 2012, "some" choose to stay in the "Dark Ages" with all the information, tecniques, and drugs available for easy treatment of parasites is beyond me. I am not trying in any way to say that I am better, or my collection is healthier, or I am above anyone. I am simply asking why more folks don't choose to "learn" more on this important subject. Maybe someone can explain this to me. .......... Please, don't kill me for my spelling. I still can't find spell check on these forums. Mike Bodner
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Understanding Reprile Parasitology-Cont.
Replies (37)
That should read Understanding Reptile Parasites. Told you I am terrible at spelling.
>>That should read Understanding Reptile Parasites. Told you I am terrible at spelling.
Lol....I thought it was Scooby-Doo.....ruh roh.......j/k Mike.....
But I think folks like me that don't see parasitic problems haven't had the reason to do the research........I think it all boils down to husbandry...... I hate to keep bringing that up but I run an obsessive compulsive snake room.
I am not saying that you don't......I bet many here are as compulsive with cleanliness as I am. But......I have never witnessed any I'll effect of feeding live or frozen lizards to any of my animals......maybe South Texas lizards are just healthier or the snakes in my snake room can "deal" with any parasite they have been exposed to....
I can admit that if I ever suspect a problem the research will be done....all the way to the point of doing my own microscopic fecal exams and my own treatment......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
John, LOL, I did sound like SCOOOOOBY DOOOOOOOOOOO....mike
>>John, LOL, I did sound like SCOOOOOBY DOOOOOOOOOOO....mike
Lol......reprile.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Personally I don't understand why people don't think more about life after death.
Maybe it is just something they don't want to deal with.
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Of course there is life after death. Just look at a compost heap. It is teeming with new life from dead decaying things. But the new life is not the same as the old life. Once you are dead you become new life but in a different form.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
That's very true.
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Gerard
"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car."
Rainer weishaupl
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Yeah, I heard that one before.
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Gerard
"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"
On Death:
"I always thought an exception would be made in my case"
William Saroyan and /or
Bennett Cerf
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
I thought everybody that keeps animals and plants would want to understand parasite pathology. Even if one has no pets, it is worthwhile to know about parasites so as to protect oneself.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
It is fun to look at things under a microscope. I have fond memories of looking at live sperm under a microscope in high school biology...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
I have fond memories of looking at live sperm under a microscope in high school biology...
And how...ahh never mind!
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Mike this is a great subject! I started learning about this years ago, and was even going to buy a microscope, but I'm just not sure I could ID the little buggers? I realized that most copuld be cured with a shot gun aproach of Flagyl, and Panicur. If I ever suspect a snake of harboring any parasites I use the proper dose and treatment of those two drugs, and it works like a charm. The only time I have had a snake die in recent years, was a couple I got from a particular breeder. Both snakes arrived eating but they would regurge soon after. they never responded to the treatment, and quickly perished. I strongly suspect they were carrying Crypto, which can lay dormant for as long as a year, or more.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Jorge, They are easy to id........You usually id the worm from the eggs in the fecal matter...........If you buy Klinenberg's Second edition of "Understanding Reptile Parasites" he has tons of photos. You just match up what your seeing under the scope with his photos..there are many other books you can use............google "pinworm egg photo" and you will see photos of a pinworm eggs. You can do the same with Roundworm egg, Hookworm egg, etc. Email me if you need help.....mbodner00@comcast.net.......mike
Im sorry..That was Todd, right?...Mike
>>Im sorry..That was Todd, right?...Mike
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Scratch that post. I'm getting confused with the screen names and the real people.sorry, Mike
Hi again, your making a good point for me. You act like you recently read something. You know on parasitology, and not your teaching. The problem is, in order to actually become good at something, you really need to do that something. Long before you teach or instruct.
This is why its best left to Vets, they actually practice medicine. But what the heck, good luck with your Vet practice. Cheers
>>Jorge, They are easy to id........You usually id the worm from the eggs in the fecal matter...........If you buy Klinenberg's Second edition of "Understanding Reptile Parasites" he has tons of photos. You just match up what your seeing under the scope with his photos..there are many other books you can use............google "pinworm egg photo" and you will see photos of a pinworm eggs. You can do the same with Roundworm egg, Hookworm egg, etc. Email me if you need help.....mbodner00@comcast.net.......mike
I have it Mike, that is what got me interested in the subject, thanks!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Sorry.. I'm slow to catch on I guess, but I posted down there again. And to answer bluerosy..... Noooo..... I would never worry about a bed bug infestation ... Nothing a can of provent a mite can't kill, pyrethrin is good for a lot.
And to others who posted, if you say you have not dealt with parasites, your lying or have not owned many reptiles. I am ocd about my cages and never leave them dirty, but I have brought home a new comer that may have needed treatment. Whether its mites or internal parasites, cleaning alone does not kill them. Pinworms can run through all 6 larval stages and reproduce without reingestion or leaving the gi tract.
Pretend they don't exist or look at the reality, to each his own.
>>Sorry.. I'm slow to catch on I guess, but I posted down there again. And to answer bluerosy..... Noooo..... I would never worry about a bed bug infestation ... Nothing a can of provent a mite can't kill, pyrethrin is good for a lot.
>>
>>And to others who posted, if you say you have not dealt with parasites, your lying or have not owned many reptiles. I am ocd about my cages and never leave them dirty, but I have brought home a new comer that may have needed treatment. Whether its mites or internal parasites, cleaning alone does not kill them. Pinworms can run through all 6 larval stages and reproduce without reingestion or leaving the gi tract.
>>Pretend they don't exist or look at the reality, to each his own.
K.....I'm a liar....thanks.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>>>And to others who posted, if you say you have not dealt with parasites, your lying or have not owned many reptiles.
I did have a wild caught blue spiny that had mites........at least that's all that vie SEEN in my collections.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>>>>>And to others who posted, if you say you have not dealt with parasites, your lying or have not owned many reptiles.
And carion flies and their larvae (maggots)........ Does that count?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Many have mistaken those little carrion fly larvae as nematodes. Including myself at one point. I swear those little devils can lay eggs and have them hatch the same day or the next. But if you put them under a microscope they look like maggots just like the large fly maggots. Not a worm. Mike
>>Many have mistaken those little carrion fly larvae as nematodes. Including myself at one point. I swear those little devils can lay eggs and have them hatch the same day or the next. But if you put them under a microscope they look like maggots just like the large fly maggots. Not a worm. Mike
All I know is.....I hate them!.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
This brings up a good question, what did you learn that you think others "need" to know?
I mean, is there some huge problem that exsists that needs fixing?
I mean, I personally have kept and bred reptiles and in this case colubrids, since 1964 and cannot remember ever having to treat a snake for parasites, wild caught or not.
I have been keeping and breeding varanids since 1991 and here I needed to have a few treated, all indo wild caughts. But only a few.
These days, 99% of all captive snakes are captive hatched, and do not come loaded with parasites. So why is there some real need to understand parasitology? Also reptile vets are nearly on every corner these days. As least compared to the old days.
And lastly, the key to successful captives is to support a healthy immune system. With that done, reptiles have no problems with parasite overloads or any problem at all.
Parasitic overloads are a product of a health compromised individual snake, so its far more important to concern ones self with that aspect of husbandry.
Also with the same resources you mentioned, you can research and learn decent husbandry.
I personally think the use of drugs should be left to trained personal like Vets. You know for the general herp keeping public.
Those that are good at keeping snakes, usually do not need to treat anything. So whats your point?
Fr, Not sure what your name is. I think, I explained my point quite clearly in many different ways. I'm sorry your having a hard time understanding it or the many benefits that can come with my suggestions. This isn't 1960 anymore. Mike Bodner
I was asked above by someone what is the point of my posts. The point is to improve husbandry. Eg. having your snakes not eating off the floor of cages with hundreds of microscopic nematode eggs. Along with this improving the health of the animal is the point. By the way, I did learn most of this in books readily available. That was my other point, that anyone can learn it too. By the way, if someone knows that their animals have internal parasites and is ok with it, is fine for that person. But do you tell your customers that your animals are infected or might or might not be infected. I know I'm pretty ticked when someone sends me a parasite ridden animal. They are sent right back next day air. Is it ok for an animal that is infected to be sent to someone who has spent years cleaning and keeping their animals clean. Only to have 1 purchase possibly destroy their whole collection. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. Just some things to think about. Mike Bodner
Your posts were great and informative. Have no regarding numerous tall tale tellers that infiltrate productive forums.
Good info!!
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Genesis 1:1
Sorry...meant to say:
Have no worries whatsoever regarding numerous tall tale tellers that infiltrate productive forums.
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Genesis 1:1
Thanks Man. Appreciate it. Mike
FR, I think you are missing out on an important thing with poopooing knowing reptile parasites. I have captured wild reptiles that did need help with parasites and once the load was removed the animals did fine. I am a retired farmer; no way could I keep livestock without an understanding of parasites, same for my pet hobbies of reptiles, birds, cats, etc. Understanding parasites and the treatment thereof means not just willy nilly dosing the animals with a drug, or ignoring the infestation, but having enough knowledge to both identify and treat the animals properly. You are right, a strong immune response matters. Captive bred snakes are less likely to harbor parasites. But it never hurts to arm oneself with as much knowledge as possible to insure good husbandry.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
" But it never hurts to arm oneself with as much knowledge as possible to insure good husbandry. "
A great statement Bob! I could not agree more!
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Genesis 1:1
Hello I was asked to add my opinion to this thread. I've read both part one and the continued edition so here it goes.
Understanding parasites:
IMO, this is always a great idea. What part of reptiles isn't fascinating? If it helps out with your husbandry, even if not on a day-to-day basis, then you're ahead of the game. It does go a long way to strengthen your quarantine period IMO.
I should caution, to Mike and everyone else else eager to learn; when you think you have a good grasp of everything, is typically the most dangerous time. It's kind of like the saying, "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing". As long as you remain humble, and realize there will always be more that you don't know than what you do, then you'll be fine.
Some notes from the threads:
The parasites you see in those Yarrow spiny lizards probably arn't going to bother your snakes at all. "Most" parasites are quite species specific. What the original article (I think, I only read the short abstract that you provided) is about, and what you are seeing "squish out of the lizards under constriction" are reproducing parasites. That means that the lizard is the End Host.
Where the lizard could be a problem is when it is an Intermediate Host. These parasites you probably won't see. They are cysts or larvae encapsulated withen the tissues of the lizard as opposed to the intestinal tract. When the prey is eaten, these parasites are freed by digestion and are able to breed in your snake's gastro. tract.
Panacur and Flagyl treat bugs in the GIT. They won't kill parasites elsewhere in the body.
Jlassiter and FR are correct. Parasites generally aren't a concern for animals kept properly. They can keep them down to minimal levels, in which there is debate on many parasites actually being of some benefit, aka a commensal organism.
Most parasites need some sort of intermediate host, or at least an incubation period outside of target host. Such is that if you are spotless, or 'OCD' with your herp room, there nearly all parasitic infections that you will encounter will be self limiting.
Even with fecal analysis, you cannot claim your animals are parasite free. Those that do, just don't understand parasites, or what a fecal analysis is catching.
When you're doing your fecal analysis, centrifuging isn't necessary; the float is fine. However there are different methods (some involving centrifuging), that target different parasites. A simple example is the direct smear versus the fecal float. If giardiasis is suspected, a direct smear will always be used, for giardia are largely dead by the time the float has set.
Other tests like ELISA tests are much more sensitive than microscopy.
There is a brand new test (I don't know if it's available even for vets yet) that is very sensitive at detecting cryptosporidium. This is a DNA based test and should be very ground breaking for this uncurable disease.
Deworming is safe(?) Generally yes, in that there can be a large margin of error. However there are many exceptions and I am not a fan of self treatment. A lot more goes into a prescription than deciding on the dosage.
I think that's about it. I hope this was helpfull.
Ian
Ian, Thanks, That was very informative. Thanks Again.
This is great info. I freeze wc lizards before feeding them to my pyros. Freezing hard for several days is supposed to kill parasites in the tissues, like cysts. Although I do worry about Trichinosis and cook thoroughly game and pork. Not a concern for my snakes! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
