Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's cold here in Montana, so maybe I'm just grumpy. Or maybe the forum is too quiet and we haven't had a good Interweb Octogon battle in a while. Whatever the case, I've gotta vent. I seem to be seeing more and more mis-labeling these days. I know crossing subspecies and hybridization is rampant, but when I see things like this Bad Snake it makes me want to scream. To anyone who thinks that labeling their hybrids correctly and honestly will keep them from tainting the unadulterated bloodlines, a cursory look through the classifieds of any herp website should be evidence enough that this is not the case. How does this happen? Some of it, yes, is intentional. A lot of it, perhaps. But I suspect a growing portion of the criss-cross animals that are mis-labeled are due to hobbyists acquiring already crossed or hybridized stock for their breeding projects. They may not even be aware that their animals have "foreign" genes in them, due to the changing of hands

I guess my frustration has led me to ask my fellow milkheads this question: What can we do about it? How do we approach situations like this? I personally make note of persons and businesses with suspect histories to make sure I never acquire animals from them, but is that enough? Is it best to approach them about their mis-labeled animals? If so, do you go about it nicely, or hammer them to get your point across? I've tried the "nice guy" approach in the past, only to be verbally back-handed by the seller. What's our collective stand? Do we have a "united front", so to speak? Do we make a Trusted Breeder's page like has been done for alterna and the mexicana-complex Lampros? Or do we do nothing an just take take note? I'm terribly concerned about this today (for some reason), so approaching the forum dudes seems like a good idea. Maybe I'm just over-reacting. Please share your thoughts.

/end rant

Here's a Lampropeltis triangulum multistrata from Thomas County, Nebraska stock

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_______________________

-Cole

" To anyone who thinks that labeling their hybrids correctly and honestly will keep them from tainting the unadulterated bloodlines, a cursory look through the classifieds of any herp website should be evidence enough that this is not the case."

That is the same type of attitude drug dealers have when they dispense their poison to young kids, adults, and others. They want to sell their product and make their money, but not have to deal with the responsibility for their actions, and the lives they destroy. Although not a completely comparable parallel to the snake hobby, the lazy and non-caring attitude of another human being is the same. Also, one thing that is a common factor is certain things get destroyed: In the drug scene, people's lives. In the snake hobby, bloodlines, and the purity of the species as a whole. A chopping block of degradation of the existence of certain species, with each unfortunate hybrid that is produced.

So, for those who partake in biological perversion, as in producing hybrids, they are emitting a certain type of laziness and ultimately, pure selfishness, that IS destroying aspects of the hobby. It all boils down to putting humans and animals before themselves and their selfish desires. They do not care about the future results of their childish playroom actions that result in a fuzzy and warm feeling seeing the " unknown " hatch out of the eggs.

" What can we do about it? How do we approach situations like this? I personally make note of persons and businesses with suspect histories to make sure I never acquire animals from them, but is that enough? Is it best to approach them about their mis-labeled animals? If so, do you go about it nicely, or hammer them to get your point across? I've tried the "nice guy" approach in the past, only to be verbally back-handed by the seller. What's our collective stand? Do we have a "united front", so to speak? Do we make a Trusted Breeder's page like has been done for alterna and the mexicana-complex Lampros? Or do we do nothing an just take take note? I'm terribly concerned about this today (for some reason), so approaching the forum dudes seems like a good idea. Maybe I'm just over-reacting. Please share your thoughts. "

I have had some luck in approaching those with mis-labeled animals, and they responded kindly, just as I approached them, and they changed their ads. Some others, not so. It all depends on each individual.

I don't feel that being outright rude is ever productive, and to be calm and collected is the better choice. I have found better results to be had by being calm.

For the ones that do either partake in biological perversion, I always make a note, along with my other brothers in the hobby, to never give them a dime. These purveyors of the perversion would be quite surprised at how much business they DO actually lose by being selfish with their animals and their breedings.

A Trusted Breeders page may not be a bad idea, as long as professinalism is of the highest priority.

You are not over-reacting at all. You are just simply experiencing the frustration breeders all over feel.

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Genesis 1:1

Cole,

I am right there with you brother with the frustration level. Like DISCERN, I have had some success with emailing sellers and pointing out mislabled animals and for a decent amount of them, they fix it.

I'm not sure its all laziness on the part of these people...I think to some, a milk snake is a milk snake and they don't appreciate or value subspecies designations. I don't agree with those people at all and work hard to keep subspecies and locality lines seperate and pure.

So your question of "What can we do?" is a good one. I'm interested to know how the alterna people manage their "Trusted Breeders" page. Who decides who gets in and doesn't get in? What does it take to get in and how do you get booted out?
Sounds like a great idea but I think the questions raised will make it impracticle to manage and it sounds like one more thing for people to fight about on the forums!

I think the best idea is just to get to know folks in the hobby that you can form a relationship with and develop some trust and get your animals from those people. That's what I do. That way you're forming your own list of trusted breeders.

As much as I'd like to save the world from man made hybrids and integrades, there is just no way to control it or stop it other than by not supporting their efforts through purchases, etc.

Dave

Amherst County Virginia, Ltt

DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

Dave,

I m one of the few lucky enough to be considered a trusted alterna breeder.The way you get in is to have animals that can be traced all the way back to wild lineage.If there is even one smal part that is missing then they are considered generic.
I could and should work the same way with milks.It works that way as well with Rosy's,pyros,zonata and even cal kings.

After being around the hobby a few years its prety easy to get a grip on who has what etc.....You just have to go with the signs and yes there will be sometimes you will get screwed even when dealing with hardcore locale nutts cause that person didn't do there homework and they just trusted the seller before them.

And, if somebody has a fine example of a locale animal but he or she works with hybrids it doesn't meen that they are tainted but I tend to stay away from breeders like that.

The pic below is a male sanderson alterna we found in situ in (07) and five nights later found a female not 100 yards away.So,believe it or not I could have sold everyone of there babies five times over the last 4 years cause people like the real deal when they can be traced back like this.

L8r Shannon

LOL, woops.....Wrong picture up-loaded.It is the wild caught female being bred from her son this year.Lets try this again.

L8r

he knows exactly who he is going to talk to when he wants to buy milks...so certainly there is a trusted group of milk breeders that hang out on this forum (as well as others I'm sure).

Dave
DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

I still need to find someone with some killer Sinaloans. Lol!!!
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Lol just look in the classifieds...they're all over the place!

Dave

I was going to quote one paragraph from your response but the whole thing is correct. A lot of it is not from laziness. Most of it is people that just don't care. You milk guys do a great job and anyone that has any brains at all can figure out really easily who is full of it. It sucks that it is that way now but as long as you guys are around and keep doing what you do there is some peace. I haven't started putting my milk collection together yet I still have a couple more kings to track down. However, I know where I can go to quickly get everything I want. That's got to be worth something right? Thank you to all you guys that don't mess [bleep] up!

Also, it's nice there aren't any Ball Python pictures in this thread.

Cole, that Thomas county multistrata is awesome! I hadn't seen that locale yet.
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

" Most of it is people that just don't care. "

That is the laziness I was speaking about, with those who hybridize.

Good post bro!
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Genesis 1:1

I was talking about Davis who thought hard about what he wanted to do and justifies it by saying he doesn't believe in subspecies. Lol! You can't fix stupid I guess.
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yep, laziness at its' finest! HAHA!
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Genesis 1:1

Classic...
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Dang it Cole, I was just about to sell my LTT that are het for black rat snake. The list of folks I will buy snakes from is getting shorter and shorter and I think that is about all we can do. Only buy from people you KNOW have good stock. Mostly animals that can be traced to w/c or from someone you really trust.

Joe

Man, DON'T EVEN get me going on this pathetic issue Cole!!..

Yeah, love the guy's so-called "nelson's het for albino" Pueblan milk..HAHAA!!

I guess the ONLY way to realistically look at it without pulling your hair out and screaming is to figure that alot of the stuff we all work with will be just that much more revered and sought after in future years..LOL!

The more ignorant people that come mobbing into this hobby, the more ignorance will be displayed in what is bred and produced. Heck, look at what your buddy Davis is producing over there on the "other" forum. Need I say any more?..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Cole,

There are too many young people who regard the hobby as a fad and don't take it very seriously. They've never gone out in the wild and seen how hard it is to find some types of snakes and well as learn about their habitats and lifestyles.

These are the very same people who will not bother to learn to properly identify snakes and regard their "natural habitat" as deli cups and thereby think it's OK to mix-and-match any type of captive bred snake.

So you have two very different mindsets in the hobby.

Tim

Third Eye

Very good post Tim!!
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Genesis 1:1

As a new guy I wanted to let you all know what I thought. I've been keeping snakes for 6 or 7 years now and the draw to locality specific and "natural" snakes started at the beginning. I don't have the snakes that I do because I want to be a snake snob and it doesn't have anything to do with money. I'm just drawn to these animals. I'll admit some of the designer morph are striking but I do not believe that it is possible to improve on nature. Evolution has been fine-tuning these animals for thousands of years making them the very best at what they do, and that alone makes them worthy of my time and interest. I've followed the forum for quite some time but I've never really posted. I just wanted to let you guys know that I appreciate what you do and remind you that there are new guys out here that are taking time to read what you post and are learning from you.
JOSH

Ahhh!,..that was a great post for sore ears and eyes!..

Hopefully there will be more like you to carry on the hobby torch when the old-timers are gone.

cheers, ~Doug

Scarlet king

Pacific Central American milk (L.t.oligozona)

Scarlet king

Normal tangerine Honduran before any morphs existed

Awesome example of a genuinely authentic nelsoni shortly before the amel existed in the hobby

Another L.t.oligozona....

Tangerine Honduran. Note the egg tooth!

Outer Banks kingsnake (L.g.sticticeps)

Another Outer Banks sibling to the one above as it speckled-up and matured later on.

Green phenotype Florida kingsnake...het for nothing!

Sinaloan milksnake from early 90's

Yes, a genuine locality-specific w/c corn from near Everglades National Park!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Wait...that's not a nelsoni? Dang it! There goes my ultra pure heritage line albino nelsoni project!
Nah Cole, you're not cranky from the cold, it's exasperation you're feeling. (purist freak you are)

Best mis-identified snake of 2011: the 4 foot (was it 5 foot?)amaura from this summer?

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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

Jeff, Thats funny cause I was thinking about that 5 foot Amuara just a few days ago.Monster island LTT's have nothing on that big boy.LOL.......

p.s. thats a sharp looking conanti there bud,wait or is it a dixoni?LMAO......

L8r

Yeah, the five foot so-called "amaura" was pretty mind-blowing for sure..LMAO!!. That textbook annulata ad video those dude's had being sold as a "polyzona" of all things ranked right up there too though..HAHA!!!

The Markel's king/milksnake book laying wide open on the counter in the background was absolutely freakin PRICELESS!!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

and you could have predicted just who would reply... seems there are very few with an interest in maintaining pure lines of the various subspecies of milks... if it isn't an anorexic het for ghostly homo morph it just isn't interesting.

As the newest guy among all of you with a taste for the "plain old" milks that has taken the time to reply thus far I'd like to say this... thanks to those of you that do keep the pure lines going... some of the "newbies" do appreciate it!

Cole, I'm certain you know that what has been done can't be undone and that there are those that will always have that incredible nelsons... your frustration and the need to vent are understandable... wish I could offer some answer but... well all the "buts" have been addressed in the previous replies... all I can say to you and those of like mind is keep up the good fight... I'm sure there are other newbies out there among the silent majority that, like myself, appreciate your efforts.

Thanks for the responses, gents. It's comforting to know that I've got kindred spirits out there. At least we aren't alone! Keep fighting the good fight is I suppose about the best we can do. Encouraging new members to our ranks is probably our most valuable tool.

Have a great Thanksgiving, everyone!
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_______________________

-Cole

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well Cole, and all the other forum members. Yep, the way I feel about is simple--If mother nature can't make it, I don't want it.

Joe

My hondos are anything BUT pure, so I use them as my little genetic experiments that I really enjoy, mainly due to this Mega stuff.
I know I can't un-do what has been done so it's just fun for me.
I would love to get some wild caught central american milks at some point, preferably one's that I catch myself!
Manmade un-natural crosses on the other hand just don't appeal to me in the slightest and it's nice to know folks like you are spending so much time and effort keeping things straight!

Happy Turkey Day everyone!

-Rusty

Sorry if I mis-spelled anything, did this post via my phone, no spell check!

...I love locality stuff...pure and cool and natural....

...I love hybrids and integrades also....pretty stuff....some even have oretty lips.....(think banjo music here)

...you all say you hate integrades...but sell loaclity natural integrades....same thing,....mixed...by nature...

nature or Paul in a trailer...still mixed...

......my thoughts....I had locality animals...adults...cool...paid what they wanted for them...raised them 3 and 4 years...all good stuff....and...what did I get when they went up for sale....???.....offers for them of like 450 each....yea...even the 300$ each valued stuff....

so...a mutt that's perty...and a pure God blessed (and milk forum) stock.....all gets me 30 to 50 $ in the end....wheeeee....

....you say it's not for the money...it's for the purity and love...

God, purity, and love don't feed or clean my cages and snakes....money does....

.....yes...it would be great to sell and own all pure stuff and get alot of cash for them....but....this world don't pay up....nor this forum....

really....

Have fun...Love all you purity guys....and I own 0 snakes here at the hosue now...none..not one mouse..even killed the wild one....

....I am bored chitless......HHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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........JY

...LOL...the offfers for them at 450 each should read as you guessed I hope...$50 each.....

...big difference.......typos all over that....
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........JY

There is a difference between a natural occurring intergrade and breeding snakes from the west coast to snakes from the east coast. It's even a bigger difference with animals of two different species. So, I say that your post makes no sense. Not everything is about making money. That's the attitude that makes this problem worse. You think of the short term only and how to make a quick buck. That was the dumbest post I ever saw you post. Happy Thanksgiving!
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Thanxxx...

I didn't say breed pales to easterns to make natural integrades....I was thinking the same as nature...same thing...eastern to red....same in my celler as in MO...same with eastern to St Mary's?......yet I was told to not breed Calvert's to St Mary's.....even though they don't know where the county line is?.....

also....same deal...Calvert to St Mary's...NOOO you don't do it please.......((( I did it and used a hypo calvert to St Mary...you can't--- I can theory)_....yea...do as I say ,not as I have done....(a milkhead too)...

......anyways.....we all want perfection....and yes...it's all about the cash...that's why I love breeding ball pythons ....and the milks were a side pet.....

....anyways...sold out....done....
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........JY

Maybe it's because I can't understand what your saying but you make it either about or not about the money. Breeding two different localities of the same species just makes generics. They are still the same species. Like I said maybe I can't understand what you mean.

Trim Trig sorry no milks yet.

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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That's a great shot Gerald!!!
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Randy Whittington

It looks like a unusual color phase of a Green Pit Viper. There the only one i'm familiar with with the two small vertical stripes starting just in front and below the eye. Is that right?
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Randy Whittington

Trimeresurus Trigonocephalus. Thanks it's a cool snake that is easy to keep.
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

....awesome Trimeresurus there "Gerald"!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That is a pretty snake right there!

Joe

They have a nice blue color to them that makes them pop in there cages too.

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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

No more non milkshake pictures.
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Nothing wrong with milkshaking things up every now and then.

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Randy Whittington

Nothing wrong with "non" milkshaking things up now and again.
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Randy Whittington

That the species I am putting together now. One of my top 5 favorite snakes. Very cool!
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I personally enjoy a non milkshake photo now and then here, as long as its not a BP or a snake named after any type of sandwich.

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Joe

Here you go Joe! The ultimate in snakes, and my personal fave,

The Northern Pinesnake!!!!!!

Not part of some trend, not part of some get rich quick dreams, and the northern pine enjoys not driving some to take out a second mortgage on their home for some dream of being rich someday!

The northern pinesnake also enjoys not being labeled different morphs with all of the different shades and colors NORMALS can be seen in. It also enjoys not having 10 pages of classifieds each day approximately with an overcrowded market.

And that is not all Joe! Oh no....

Wait! There's more!!

The northern pinesnake has nothing to do with any kind of food name whatsover!!! I am as shocked as you are Joe!!

Where the northern pinesnake is found, however, the popular foods enjoyed by humans, in their range, are fantastic fresh bagels made by locals, Jersey blueberries and peaches, sweet white corn, Jersey hot dogs, bacon-wrapped Jersey breakfast dogs, Taylor pork roll, clams in Cape May, Salt Water Taffy, disco fries, and the ever-loving Scrapple.

So Joe, enjoy the fascinating pics of DISCERN's most loved snake of all time, without the trendiness and food names attached!!!!

Burlington Co. locality

Non-locality:

Non-locality:

Ocean County:

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Genesis 1:1

I realize this is the wrong forum, but I just have to say I agree with Discern 100%. Northern pines are beautiful and a blast to keep. Their lack of popularity works in their favor. There is no pressure to develop morphs, gratefully, and not too much careless hybridization. Let's hope that northerns remain a not-too-popular, second-tier snake.

Perfect words there my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

...ok...here are facts ....

I bred for 20 years and, owned years ago before.....why not make a hobby pay for itself if you can...money matters....

fact...in 20 years I crossed hondo and stuart's one time, one year......that's it....
(owned sina-king-corn ,but didn't make them and you could tell what they were --jungles)...

fact ...I owned "locality pure" snakes usually.....

fact...I never lied to anyone about what a snake was.....

...I tried.........
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........JY

Ok, I was attacking you. I can't understand what you write. I'm sure you were honest about what you had but it only takes one person not be to hurt everyone. FACT! So I have no respect for anyone that does it. Good intetions or not. It doesn't make sense and I never will have something nice to say about it. Have a good night.
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Cole,

You're spot on, my friend. I think you speak for many (if not most) of us in your frustrations, but as you suggest, it's a lot easier to see the negative trends than to know what to do about them. I've consoled myself for some time with a few thoughts:

1. While we can't undo what's been done to the hobby, we have an amazing core community here that's not going anywhere. There have been "fly by nights" for years and they'll continue to come and go -- yes, that trend is here to stay -- but the people who are HERE are here because they share the same passion and dedication that you do. We're not going anywhere either.

2. As Doug mentioned, if there's an unlikely silver lining to these trends, it's that our "normal" stuff actually becomes rarer the more it's tainted in the hobby. Let them do their worst!

3. As per several conservations with Senor Niles, the commitment, experience, expertise and TRUST that underlies any dealings with locality animals means that business relationships frequently become close lasting friendships between people of deeply shared values.

I realize this skirts the issue of how to address mislabeled animals, whether we need an annual symposium, etc. I think others have pretty accurately summarized my feelings there. These are just a few additional things to think about!

Brad

Jefferson Parish, LA - 6 feet of glory

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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

Awesome post! That is a great way to look at it.
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Gerard

"I am the one that hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!