Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm fairly new here.

I am wondering if it's possible for Brooks Kings to breed without a brumation period. They are from a very warm climate with a short winter, which makes me think that brumation may not be necessary.

I paired them up today to test my little theory, and immediately they were interested in each other. They chased each other around for awhile, but I never saw a successful lock up.

Should I continue to pair them up this way since they are obviously in to each other, or is brumation still a necessity? I know, kinda a noob question, but this is my first time breeding kings, previously having bred only corns.

Thanks the help.

-Wade

You can feed them through winter but you must give them temperature CHOICES. They will choose to sit on the cool side to conserve energy when not digesting..

It is best to keep the ssmakes in a cold room (40-50F) and have a hot spot on one end on the unit. this way the snakes can and will choose what is best for them. They are able to thermoregulate themselves without our "help".

This is the most hmane method to brumate your kings. A forced cooling is not!
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>I'm fairly new here.
>>
>>I am wondering if it's possible for Brooks Kings to breed without a brumation period. They are from a very warm climate with a short winter, which makes me think that brumation may not be necessary.
>>
>>I paired them up today to test my little theory, and immediately they were interested in each other. They chased each other around for awhile, but I never saw a successful lock up.
>>
>>Should I continue to pair them up this way since they are obviously in to each other, or is brumation still a necessity? I know, kinda a noob question, but this is my first time breeding kings, previously having bred only corns.
>>
>>Thanks the help.
>>
>>-Wade

It's a little early or too late for breeding depending on how you look at it......
Floridana typically don't need 55F for three months to breed successfully but they (especially the males) need a period of conservation to generate viable sperm for reproduction........

Where is it you live?
Depending on your location I would get them in tune with the seasonal changes then pair them up in the Spring....

Floridana are rather simple to breed successfully in captivity......just like corns......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I'm in Georgia, and we are experiencing the cold of winter now. I have been feeding them up for brumation, and if needed I would put them in brumation late December/early January for around two months. Would a temp. of about 60-65 degrees be okay?

-Wade

When I cooled my floridana in the 60s I had terrible fertility rates. I recommend 50-55 for at least 2 months.
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www.brooksi.com

When I cooled my floridana in the 60s I had terrible fertility rates. I recommend 50-55 for at least 2 months

You may hav a good poing there. When i hot mine with a temp gun they are 40f even though they could get on the warm side.

But that is my point about giving the snake choices in temp gradients. They 9the snakes) know what is best for them. They also like to heat up occasionally. That is why i don't think a forced cooling over an extended period is a good idea. But neither is keeping them in a steady 55-65f either. You really need both extremes of below 50F and above 80 F. The snakes do the rest and this method takes out any quesswork.

Also since I keep my Florida kingsnakes communally. Some of them breed earlier than expected and some later. Some breed in fedb, some in march, etc...Again, this is all about giving the snakes choices and it makes it a lot easier for us. Trying to be an expert breeder while always second guessing what the snakes needs and when it SHOULD breed (per us) really makes things are lot more omplicated in keeping them than necessary.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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What you're talking about may be closer to how floridana/brooksi live in the wild. They do not experience any real hibernation period (especially in South Florida), though there may be occasional extended stretches where it is too cold to come out. I've found them under carpet and tin with stomachs full during the coldest parts of the year, on days when the high temp was barely 50, and the overnight low was below freezing.
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www.brooksi.com

I have heard of a few guys who claim they have done it without a cooling period but their results were minimal at best. I think John is roght about the males needing it to produce viable sperm, but also think of this. I believe that the cooling period helps to get the males and females on the same clock if you will. Right now you may have a male interested in the female but the female most likely is running away. Cooling them gets them synchronized and also insures for the best sperm production. You are right they don't need a lot. I bred mine last season for 45 days at temps which fluctuated between 45 and 60. Mostly in the higher end of the range.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Great post Jorge, and I could not agree more!!

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Genesis 1:1

The female will only be receptive if ovulating.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have heard of a few guys who claim they have done it without a cooling period but their results were minimal at best

Jorge I think you still misunderstand. The snakes need to be in a cold room. Inbetween 30-55F and they have the heat on one end of the unit. The snakes choose the temps themselves. No need to force cooling.

You know I have done this successfully for over a decade with all my Florida kings. There is no special tricks or secrest. It is really rather brainless to accomplish.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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I think Tony D is a smart guy and he didn't have good results doing it, so why should I stop doing it a way that has always given me good results to risk having bad results? If you have good results, more power to you. Why do you have to impose your ways on everyone else?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

@Bluerosy I do not have the ability of reaching temps. that low. I do find your method interesting, though, and may experiment with it later.

From what has been said I think I will just give them a classic brumation. Something like 70 degrees during the day and a dramatic night drop to around 60 degrees for 1-2 months with very occasional feedings. From what I have observed, I think it will be enough to initiate breeding.

One last question, does photo period play any significant part in Floridana brumation?

I appreciate the advice.

-Wade

>>One last question, does photo period play any significant part in Floridana brumation?
>>
>>I appreciate the advice.
>>
>>-Wade

Wade I don't think it's as important with most snakes, as they usually brumate underground. I know some people who brumate in a cellar with lights only when they walk in to inspect them every week or so.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Something like 70 degrees during the day and a dramatic night drop to around 60 degrees for 1-2 months with very occasional feedings

You can't feed them at 70F . the food will rot in their stomach.

they need higher temp to digest.

i live in GA to. So as you know, here in GA it gets down below 30F. Some days in the low teens. Just put the snakes in a garage or shed. Crank the heat tape on all the way. When the snakes feed they will sit on the hot end (keep the hot side at least 90F). After they digest they will stay on the cool side. Mine will still feed even though they are on the cold side . I hit them with the temp gun and they are 40f and they will take a mosuee and then crawl to the hot side.

If you keep them this way, they will breed when the season changes outside. Usually when the trees start to bud is when my whole collection breeds. That time of year is different every year. As you know we can have snow in April and have a late spring or early spring. It is crazy here in GA. but the snakes know!! the floridana are in tune with what is going on outside. keeping them this way mimic a more natural state and they are in tune with what the season is doing outdoors.

Lets say you lived further north, like Wisconsin..A forced cooling like most everybody does is very unatural. But that is what they have been taught since they were infants in the hobby. They stop feeding after thanksgiving (NOV)then they heat there snakes up in Jan-Feb and put them together in March when the snow is still 7' high outdoors.

You live in GA. that is good. it is not to hot like florida and it has a normally timed spring in April.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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I think I would die if it got 30 degrees!
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Remember Gerard, feeding them in brumation, and having the heat tape cranked all the way to 11, during brumation, is mimicing nature!

HA HA!!!!!

That explains the miles of heat tape being found in the wild, coming out of the brumation dens, as we herp areas where the dens can be found!

LOL! I love this forum!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Hmmm, maybe it's a steam line?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

By golly Jorge, you are right!

I just got back in from searching outside, and I found an actual brumation den with, guess what? A steam pipe!! They all were up against the steam pipe, collecting warmth.

I then tripped over the piles of thawed out rodents, that the snakes had been feeding from, delivered from a rodent breeding facility to their den, as I made my way out of the brumation den found in nature.
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Genesis 1:1

They all were up against the steam pipe, collecting warmth.

acvtually the only reason they would be up against the steam pipe is to keep from freezing to death.

I bet if you hit them with a temp gun they would still be at around 40-55F. Just when things get to the freezing point would they get press up to the pipe to keep from freezing.

That's what snakes do. they thermoregulate the temps that they want and When they want them.

Thanks for the great picture you drew to illustrate this!
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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...and thank you for making this forum even more a laughing stock than it has ever been!!

Great work!!
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Genesis 1:1

Really though, I'm from Miami. How do people live where it gets that cold. I don't even own pants. Screw that 30 degree stuff!
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

You'll be hitting 30 degrees where you live in not too long.
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www.brooksi.com

Dude, I know! It was like 42 the other night. I didn't think I would make it. I not even want to see my electric bill for this month. I need to go buy some cloths that work for this crap.
The winter in Miami 2 years ago was crazy. I saw 3 brooksi caught after that were all messed up and died a week after we got them. I don't think that real brooksi can take to much to long.
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

For you my sweet

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN7LW0Y00kE
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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buy a better camera.
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

It works fine .

You buy a better Ipad. LOL!
-----
There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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It must have known it was stupid!
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

It must have known it was stupid!

oh, did you get the new Iphon 4S? LOL!
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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Lol! No I don't like iPhones. It's hard to pay attention to work when you have a little commute in your pocket.
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Damn auto correct!
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

i am not talking about iphones, I am talking about the iphone S4.

Youtube it and see what I am talking about. You can ask it any question. There are tons of funny youtube videos.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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Yeah, I saw that on Colbert Report. It's crazy what's coming out now.
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That is why when you said "it" knew my link was stupid. I asked if it was an IphoneS4.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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.....
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

you can't feed them at those temps. Make sure they have good weight prior to cooling. Stop feeding them about 2 weeks before so they empty their guts, and don't feed them till you warm them up. I believe the onset of food is a big stimulus to trigger their breeding cycles. Same thing for a double clutch. Right after the female lays eggs, feed her heavy, and she will probably double clutch.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I don't know what TonyD did but i think is about common sense. I keep mine in a cold room with the heat tape on. they always breed and stay healthy and fat. I used to do a forced cooling and had lots of problems with infertility and even lost snakes during the brumation (cooling) period.

Also i don't understand why you would choose to beleive it does not work from someone who has a few snakes and tried it )something and i am not sure what he did) once compared to what i have been doing with thousands over 15 years.

As far as Tony D. i have no idea what he did. maybe he kept them to cool. Maybe he did not keep them in groups and introduced the males at the worng time missing the females ovulation. Maybe he did not allow them to breed when they were ready? I have no idea. But i can tell you there is no simpler way then keeping them in a cold room and turing the heat tape on one end. Snakes will cycle this way more successfully than a forced cooling.
-----
There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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For me to even try this, would be too costly. It's not even an option for me. I never said I don't believe it would work.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

For me to even try this, would be too costly. It's not even an option for me. I never said I don't believe it would work.

Whatever Jorge> !

All you do is write how it didn't work for tonyD and how smart he is.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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Well you say how eay and fool proof it is, yet Tony didn't have luck. Maybe he did something wrong like you say? How do I know I won't make the same mistake. Why should I spend the money to take that risk? The way I do it works good enough. My electric bill is high enough as it is.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I'm just gonna put them in my basement for three months where it's about 55 degrees. I now think that that will yield better results.

-Wade

WELL.... really its about whats easiest for "us" the keepers, the snakes are survivors and will tolerate all manner of ways we decide to keep them.
what works for me is a dark & cool period for brumation.
make sure they have clean fresh water during their duration of brumation,
good luck!
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>I'm just gonna put them in my basement for three months where it's about 55 degrees. I now think that that will yield better results.
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>>-Wade

Wow.....if you had that option why the initial question?......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but my initial question was whether or not brumation was even necessary for this species. I have brumated snakes before, and have the ability to do so, but I like to avoid it if possible. Brumation is tough on reptiles.

-Wade

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but my initial question was whether or not brumation was even necessary for this species. I have brumated snakes before, and have the ability to do so, but I like to avoid it if possible. Brumation is tough on reptiles.

That's right Wade, it is tough on them. that is why, if you live in GA. If you have them in cold room with no heat or in the garage. You don't need to do any forced brumation cooling. the snake will cycle themsleves with the temps in teh room. But i would cank up the heat.

What cranking up the heat will do is keep weight on your females. Females need to be well fed in orer to produce eggs.

When the heat tape is up to at 90F and the snakes are in a cold room. You can't really call that brumating your snakes. Because they are doing all the brumating. NOT US!
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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It is not tough on them.........I have some of the oldest breeders that I know of.......being force cooled for 20 years..........no health problems at all.......just my experience.......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

How do you keep such a warm hotspot when it's so cold without melting the tubs? That's my only concern with your method.

-Wade

How do you keep such a warm hotspot when it's so cold without melting the tubs? That's my only concern with your method.

-Wade

My heat tape does not het that hot. i use 3 different heat strips and they all work w/o melting anything. They don't even get close to gtting hot enough. The snakes kinda have to sit there and try and get as warm as they can. When i hit them with a temp gun 90 is the highest i get. So the strips themselves don't get that hot. that is why i said turn it all the way up in a cold room. You see, if it is below 40F in the room. the heat strips don't get that hot. It is in a cold room that you will need that heat strip to do its best job possible.

. heat strips just don't get that hot unless you are using the old pipe heating cables we used to use 10-20 years ago.

ohhh, and make sure you feed the snakes if you are getting the hot end up to 90F. Also check the temp of the cold side. It should be 55 or lower. if it is a smaller tray. turn the heat down a tad. Experiment little. But whatver you do . DO NOT feed the snakes and expect them to digest food at 75F. that is to cold.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>Maybe I didn't make it clear, but my initial question was whether or not brumation was even necessary for this species. I have brumated snakes before, and have the ability to do so, but I like to avoid it if possible. Brumation is tough on reptiles.
>>
>>-Wade

It hasn't been tough on mine for the past 17 years or so.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Saying it doesn't work is the same as saying snakes don't breed.

Essentially putting the snakes in a cold room with heat tape is the same as cooling them. the difference is they will choose the cold side on their own unless you feed them. They cycle themselves and won't stay on the hot side. promise! Try it out with one snake and see what happens. feed it and give it a temp range from 40-90F. See where it chooses to sit if you don't feed it. IT will chooses the cold side. ....(is the common sense part kicking in yet?)

They want to be cold to conserve energy. It is the length of time that pople brumate their snakes I have a problem with. they force cool them with no food and no choice given to the snake to warm up if they want to. Basically they stay ice cold for 3 months and have no choice.

I found that most* colubrid snakes and north america boids Will cycle and produce follicles and sperm with only two weeks of forced cooling. All they really need is a cold snap. Otherwise you can just keep them at 85F all year and feed them the same way until those two weeks.

[*Note; notice I said "most" N. American colubrids. Not "all" N. American colubrids and boids!]..[also wildcaught snakes are different from an f2-f5 generation captive bred]
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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"(is the common sense part kicking in yet?)"

Well economic sense tells me I will have to spend quite a bit of money cooling the entire snake room to 40 degrees, only to provide a warm side of 90 whch will cost me even more money. I only brumate for about 45 days anyway here in Florida.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

If i was in Florida i would do the same thing except cool them for a shorter period.
-----
There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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You really think 2 weeks would be sufficient? I wouldn't mind brumationg for less time If I thought it would definately work.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

2 weeks not counting the time it takes to empty their gut.

Also i would get them down to at least 55f or lower.

Florida has cold snaps. i would try and correlate the cold snaps with the brumation period in your collection. Someow that what coincdes with what is going outdoors at the same times as indoors....well, lets just say the snakes know better. So try and correlate that.

I knew the Ververkas in calif who tried all kinds of things to get snakes and MANY other reptiles to breed. They had some crazy stuff and their whole house was full of every sort of rare tort, lizard boid, colubrid. They were the most invative keeepers and breeders i have met. Even the most known top guys could not keep up with them. Anyway, one time they brumated snakes in a cooler with ice for 1 week and it was june. It worked and the snakes reproduced later that summer. Don't ask me how or why it worked. i have no clue or what else they might have done..
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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I actually heard they were the first to reverse cycle many of their reptiles......Jim and Sandy were their names, right?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yep it was Jim and Sandy. She passed away and i don't know what came of Jim. I know he dumped all his reptiles after she passed. i was already living back east then. It is weird to think about it because they had such a great passion for what they did BOTH OF THEM EQUALLY. I really can't tell you who was mor into the reptiles. Sandy or Jim. Show me that in any other marriage where herpetucuture is the shared passion. I know where married couples share the work. but not the same passion.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>Yep it was Jim and Sandy. She passed away and i don't know what came of Jim. I know he dumped all his reptiles after she passed. i was already living back east then. It is weird to think about it because they had such a great passion for what they did BOTH OF THEM EQUALLY. I really can't tell you who was mor into the reptiles. Sandy or Jim. Show me that in any other marriage where herpetucuture is the shared passion. I know where married couples share the work. but not the same passion.

Yep...there are only a few other married couples that are somewhat similar.....The Loves, Hammacks, Bells and Shores......

BTW.....I have some Mex Mex that originated with the Veverkas......Shannon's actually...I wonder if he got them from them when Jim dumped his reptiles......I'll have to ask him.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>You really think 2 weeks would be sufficient? I wouldn't mind brumationg for less time If I thought it would definately work.
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It'll probably work for Floridana and Gutatta..........but not for most of my kings....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It'll probably work for Floridana and Gutatta..........but not for most of my kings....

if you read my earlier post. i noted that it might not not ALL N. American colubrids. I was thinking of the montane spp primarily.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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I know.....I was just answering Jorge's question......and giving my opinion
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I know.....I was just answering Jorge's question......and giving my opinion

Sorry, i did not see you were answering him.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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