Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How do you KING snake guys like these?

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

is a cool freeking picture! i know its a turtle of some sort but it almost looks like some kind of mutant hognose!!!
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

that first one is REALLY nice, axanthic or anerythristic?
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>that first one is REALLY nice, axanthic or anerythristic?

Black and White AXANTHIC Splendida......

I believe a Splendida that is normally black and yellow can NEVER be Anerythristic as there is no red to be absent EVER.......

Anery means NO Erythrin.....no red pigment......

Splendida NEVER have red........

Not harping on you Thomas.......Rainer and I and others have argued this a bunch......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

then how come some are black&white and others are black&blue???
if black&whites are axanthics are black&blue anery's? oh yeah you said theres NO anerys... is it 2 mutations? like anery A and anery B in corns??? are they combatable?

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>then how come some are black&white and others are black&blue???
>>if black&whites are axanthics are black&blue anery's? oh yeah you said theres NO anerys... is it 2 mutations? like anery A and anery B in corns??? are they combatable?

With Splendida there are Black & Whites and Black & Blues......
The cool thing is if you breed a Blue to a White you will get BOTH Whites and Blues......So they are "compatible."

But both are lacking xanthin (yellow pigment).....so they are Axanthic........No way they are Anery.

There is no way they can be Anerythristic.
Anerythristic means there is NO Erythrin (red/orange) pigmentation.
Splendida NEVER exihibit Red pigmentation.......

Still people call the Black & Blues Axanthic and the Black & Whites Anery.....I don't get it......

It ALL depends on the pigment the normal wild-type exhibits......
Not what the morph looks like..............
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

hmmmm ive caught and seen many with orange almost red as babies. the orangey ones always turned out with the best screemin chrome yellow as adults but it was/is quite orangeee as babies same thing in holbrooki.
thats really cool they are compatible. its nice to see you show some REAL kings off for a change
,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>hmmmm ive caught and seen many with orange almost red as babies. the orangey ones always turned out with the best screemin chrome yellow as adults but it was/is quite orangeee as babies same thing in holbrooki.
>>thats really cool they are compatible. its nice to see you show some REAL kings off for a change
>>,,,,,,thomas
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>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yep...Orange babies exhibit xanthin......not eryrhrin.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Yep...Orange babies exhibit xanthin......not eryrhrin.......

ok if you say so....???... but it takes red and yellow to make orange... just sayin

,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>>Yep...Orange babies exhibit xanthin......not eryrhrin.......
>>
>>ok if you say so....???... but it takes red and yellow to make orange... just sayin

Yep....Red is dominant over yellow and orange.........
So if you use the dominant color "red" and mix it with yellow you will make orange.......
red and orange makes something LESS than red as well........

Plus....Read the definitions of xanthin and erythrin........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

dominant huh??? years ago i took a color mixing class in lighting school and with light you cannot mix through subtraction or addition the color red you can come close but not quite true red. IMHO these mutations are color subtraction so in my mind it makes sense that theres erythrin and xanthin at play here and that also fits for me as to why some are blue and some are black&white but i guess thats just me.
being compatible throws a wrench in my gears though...
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

being compatible throws a wrench in my gears though...

maybe they are a double recessive?...anery x axanthic
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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maybe they are... which is double though? the black&white or the blue???
see now im gonna have to get some of both and just see for myself
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>maybe they are... which is double though? the black&white or the blue???
>>see now im gonna have to get some of both and just see for myself
>>,,,,,,,thomas
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

I have a Black & White Female and a Black & Blue Male....
I will breed them together in 2013 because I am making Double hets for snow and double hets for ghost this coming year.....As I have an Amel Male for the Black & White Female and a Hypo Female for the Blue and White male........

I have yet to see a true Splendida Ghost.........Maybe in a few years I will hatch one out........

Then there are some striped genes to throw into the mix.......And a T-Positive or two out there.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Then there are some striped genes to throw into the mix.......And a T-Positive or two out there.......
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and didnt todd hatch a melanistic one out??? whatever became of that snake? or its parents? did he breed them again? where is todd???

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>Then there are some striped genes to throw into the mix.......And a T-Positive or two out there.......
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>>and didnt todd hatch a melanistic one out??? whatever became of that snake? or its parents? did he breed them again? where is todd???

Todd hatched a Hypermelanistic Holbrooki......I don't think he ever bred them again but he has the entire clutch that had the melanistic Holbrooki......

And Todd's Mother just passed away recently.....he's been coping with that prior and now after.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>And Todd's Mother just passed away recently.....he's been coping with that prior and now after.........
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man if/when you speak to him please pass along my sincere condolances.

so hypermelanistic huh? interesting... glad to hear he still has that group to maybe prove that mutation out.
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>>And Todd's Mother just passed away recently.....he's been coping with that prior and now after.........
>>-----
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>>man if/when you speak to him please pass along my sincere condolances.
>>
>>so hypermelanistic huh? interesting... glad to hear he still has that group to maybe prove that mutation out.

I certainly will Thomas......I am sure he will appreciate and accept that from you........

Todd called the mutation "black walled".....
But it was equal to what a B-Grade MBK would look like with remnant Splendida pattern......

The Holbrooki only had slight pattern on the dorsum though....which is very intersting.......

I may have to go over an take some pic of it and post it soon.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>dominant huh??? years ago i took a color mixing class in lighting school and with light you cannot mix through subtraction or addition the color red you can come close but not quite true red. IMHO these mutations are color subtraction so in my mind it makes sense that theres erythrin and xanthin at play here and that also fits for me as to why some are blue and some are black&white but i guess thats just me.
>>being compatible throws a wrench in my gears though...

It throws a wrench in mine as well...
When Don Shores told me that he bred a Black&White to a Blue&White and got both offsprings I was blown away.....

Something VERY different than what is going on in the Floridana Axanthic Vs. Anery morphology........

And I understand you understanding of the terms.....
I just go by the definitions of the terms I learned back in the early 2000's............xanthin = yellow, erythrin = red, melanin = black......
A or an = absence of, hypo = reduction of, hyper = exaggeration of..........

I guess I make it too simple as things are much more complicated.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It ALL depends on the pigment the normal wild-type exhibits......
Not what the morph looks like..............

That is what i was trying to discuss with you before. yes in bechtels book he made that up. I say made it up because when i confronted in in person twice on this issue he said the two terms don't mean anything and can be used interchachably. he also list mostly red aniamls as axanthics and mostly yellow ones in his book as anerys.

And this is the part I alwys try and explain to you. From a herpetoculturist standpoint. it has nothing to do with teh color of the original animal. But teh type of recessive trait..

Example lets say i bred a mostly yellow "axanthic to a mostly red ssnake of a different species. it would still be an axanthic. Not because the oringinal snake was yellow. but because of the blueish tinge that teh axanthic trait exi[bleep]s.

However with the spendidas. i agree that both the looks (blue and Black and white) are both axanthic. Just like I mentioned in a post below that i saw brown looking ones before.

What i look for in an anery is some color that does not have the type of "opaqueish hue' like you find in a amel T neg or lavdnder albino. An anery has more true color from its original colors. So it has the same dark pigment and same yellow as its normal type.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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Here....Let me teach you something.......
There are three "prefixes" we use:
A or An = Absence of
Hypo = Reduction of
Hyper = Exaggeration of

Then there are three Pigments we are aware of with kings
xanthin = Yellow/orange
erythrin = red
melanin = black

Anery = NO red
Axanthic = NO Yellow/Orange
Amelanistic = No Black

Hypoerythristic = Reduced Red
Hypomelanistic = Reduce Black
Hypoxanthic = Reduce Yellow (Aha....maybe there is such thing)

Hypermelanistic = Exagerrated Black
Hypererythristic = Exagerrated Red
Hyperxanthic = Exagerrated yellow (never seen it before)

Now those are the definitions.......If an animal has no red in its normal form it can NEVER be Anerythristic...........Sorry....this is what I believe.....

The bluish tinge does mean Axanthic if the wild-type normally has yellow.........

If Erythrin is absent it is replaced by the lack of pigment...........WHITE......Look at the true anery animals......like the Anery Alterna......no red OR orange...replaced with white......

I believe that yellow and orange are within the make up of red so an animal that is Anery can be Axanthic but an animal that is Axanthic doesn't necesarily mean it's axanthic.......

Okay....I said my peace...AGAIN......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Now those are the definitions.......If an animal has no red in its normal form it can NEVER be Anerythristic...........Sorry....this is what I believe.....

yes i understnad why you look at it that way. But not even Dr. Bern Bechtel beleives in that and he wrote the book on recessive trats. That is where you got your information, yes?

There waa a big discussion on this forum about 2004 and i had no dog in that fight. I other words i had no opinion. but when Dr. bechtel came to my table at the reptile expo I asked him about the aneryr vs axanthic debate to get it straight from him.

I understand why you believe the way you do and that is because it came from his book and that makes it simpler for you. But I hate to say it but will i lean towards the man who wrote the book on kingsnake genetics. But i am not saying he is 100% coreect either.

Actaully it is all about naming the animals. That was mans job since the beginning. There is no real science to it with recessive traits. We can only tell by looking at the traits and name them. there may be 10 different types that we call axanthic or anery . These are just labels to me and don't really mean anything except to distinguish for us reptile breeders (herpetoculturits) to be ON the same page when discussing a particular morph.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>Now those are the definitions.......If an animal has no red in its normal form it can NEVER be Anerythristic...........Sorry....this is what I believe.....
>>
>>yes i understnad why you look at it that way. But not even Dr. Bern Bechtel beleives in that and he wrote the book on recessive trats. That is where you got your information, yes?
>>
>>There waa a big discussion on this forum about 2004 and i had no dog in that fight. I other words i had no opinion. but when Dr. bechtel came to my table at the reptile expo I asked him about the aneryr vs axanthic debate to get it straight from him.
>>
>>I understand why you believe the way you do and that is because it came from his book and that makes it simpler for you. But I hate to say it but will i lean towards the man who wrote the book on kingsnake genetics. But i am not saying he is 100% coreect either.
>>
>>Actaully it is all about naming the animals. That was mans job since the beginning. There is no real science to it with recessive traits. We can only tell by looking at the traits and name them. there may be 10 different types that we call axanthic or anery . These are just labels to me and don't really mean anything except to distinguish for us reptile breeders (herpetoculturits) to be ON the same page when discussing a particular morph.

Actually....I NEVER read his book....
I learned what the terms meant when the Hondo craze was going on....LOL

BTW....that is the nicest and most sincere reply you've made in a LONG time Rainer......I am proud of you...you old fart!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

BTW....that is the nicest and most sincere reply you've made in a LONG time Rainer

All my replies about snakes are sincere.
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There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>BTW....that is the nicest and most sincere reply you've made in a LONG time Rainer
>>
>>All my replies about snakes are sincere.

I hear you Rainer....Not everyone does though......

I understand everything you type here........I guess it's because I KNOW you personally.......

I also understand the opposition, but I tend to ride both sides of the fence on many topics, but not all.......

I keep my animals in pairs or trios.......but I wait until their 2nd or 3rd year........I feed them when they are hungry......Not on a schedule.....But I DO force cool them as I work mainly with Montane species that benefit from it.......But all of my getula and Asian Rats get brumated with them as it is easy for me......

You see....I've listened and learned from what FR and you have preached....I have adjusted what I wanted to adjust......But I have only taken bits of it and applied it......I do not have to do what you two are doing......I am doing great with what I am doing.....and I am happy with it.....and that is all that matters to me......I don't care what everyone else thinks.......

I wish EVERYONE would take this approach and not bicker......
There are preferences to keeping and breeding certain types of kings........DEFINITELY!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Actaully it is all about naming the animals. That was mans job since the beginning. There is no real science to it with recessive traits. We can only tell by looking at the traits and name them. there may be 10 different types that we call axanthic or anery . These are just labels to me and don't really mean anything except to distinguish for us reptile breeders (herpetoculturits) to be ON the same page when discussing a particular morph.

This is the TRUEST statement EVER!

The MOST mis used term is Hypo.......Hypo what?
Most think Hypomelanism.......Reduced Black.....

But Old Timers think any lighter than normal animal is "hypo"

I say...if the the black patterned area is replaced with gray or something "less than" black it is Hypomelanistic............
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Actaully it is all about naming the animals. That was mans job since the beginning. There is no real science to it with recessive traits. We can only tell by looking at the traits and name them. there may be 10 different types that we call axanthic or anery . These are just labels to me and don't really mean anything except to distinguish for us reptile breeders (herpetoculturits) to be ON the same page when discussing a particular morph.

A good post, Rainer, introducing some more concepts important to this thread. We look at the visual (phenotypes) and use that as evidence to draw conclusions as to the genotype. So it's scientific in that way: observation: hypothesis: test (by breeding): conclusion.

But the functionality of the terms is for us as herpers, and you're exactly right. Going back to John's reference to hondo morphs, I'm reminded of the hypoerythristic hondo form that everyone calls anerythristic--which it's clearly no--those mis-named "anery" hondos providing plenty of visual evidence that while the red pigment's reduced, it's certainly not absent. When they first showed up people weren't as knowledgeable about the terminology. So what do we do now? If the point of having the "right" term is to sep us herpers on the same page, then we need to start calling those hondos "hypoerythristic". (I tried, in my articles and on my website, but I feel like at best I made only a tiny dent in people's use of the terms).

But back to the point: Just as calling those hondos the right thing, to keep us all on the same page, I think that's why this thread's so useful, because--eventually--i believe we can and will conquer proper use of axanthic and anerythristic. I'm not there yet either, but I think we're moving in the right direction by addressing the issues, debating them, presenting our evidence, etc.

>>>But the functionality of the terms is for us as herpers, and you're exactly right. Going back to John's reference to hondo morphs, I'm reminded of the hypoerythristic hondo form that everyone calls anerythristic--which it's clearly no--those mis-named "anery" hondos providing plenty of visual evidence that while the red pigment's reduced, it's certainly not absent. When they first showed up people weren't as knowledgeable about the terminology. So what do we do now? If the point of having the "right" term is to sep us herpers on the same page, then we need to start calling those hondos "hypoerythristic".

perception is a strange thing i feel the anery hondos are just that anerythristic and the pinkish tones are just surface blood vessels and not pigment at all but thats just my opinion, none of my adult anery hondos show pink sometimes hatchlings will but seem to outgrow the pinkish tone, also in my mind a hypoE hondo would be like the "pumpkin" sinaloans orange NOT red. terminology is differant within the colubrid groups no real standard across the board. as far as whats "right" it really comes down to ones own perception imho

anery hondos

anery ws king

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>perception is a strange thing i feel the anery hondos are just that anerythristic and the pinkish tones are just surface blood vessels and not pigment at all but thats just my opinion, none of my adult anery hondos show pink sometimes hatchlings will but seem to outgrow the pinkish tone, also in my mind a hypoE hondo would be like the "pumpkin" sinaloans orange NOT red. terminology is differant within the colubrid groups no real standard across the board. as far as whats "right" it really comes down to ones own perception

Thomas.....you don't think the brownish color is from the melanin encroachment?
Do you have hatchling pics of those anery hondos? I believe they were pink aa babies......your theory of blood vessels is interesting but if it were true wouldn't the white areas be pink as well........

Other kings that are hypoerythristic and pink are zonata and Mex Mex........

I guess I just have a different perception........lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

i posted baby pics in the other thread, i dont perceive them to be pink and feel anery is what they are.
also changing it would create problems like what would we call the double homozygot "ghosts" created with them and the hypomelanistic mutatations? perhaps another form of anery will surface like the extreme surfaced in hypos, then what anery A and anery B perhaps???

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>i posted baby pics in the other thread, i dont perceive them to be pink and feel anery is what they are.
>>also changing it would create problems like what would we call the double homozygot "ghosts" created with them and the hypomelanistic mutatations? perhaps another form of anery will surface like the extreme surfaced in hypos, then what anery A and anery B perhaps???
>>

I don't think it'll ever change nor it needs to........As Rainer said......they are just labels we use to identify them........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Terry, if the correct term is hypoE then whats people's problem with calling them what they are? It seems very easy. Johns rules list brakes it down perfectly.
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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Terry, if the correct term is hypoE then whats people's problem with calling them what they are? It seems very easy. Johns rules list brakes it down perfectly.
>>-----

It's too far gone Gerard........it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks.......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>>Terry, if the correct term is hypoE then whats people's problem with calling them what they are? It seems very easy. Johns rules list brakes it down perfectly.
>>>>-----
>>
>>
>>It's too far gone Gerard........it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks.......lol
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

Btw.....I was not referring to you Terry....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Lol, it still seems very simple. Not much thought needed.
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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/bgp98c0701.html
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I don't see the debate at all. Very clearly a different morph. On a different note, that snake is insane man.
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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>I don't see the debate at all. Very clearly a different morph. On a different note, that snake is insane man.
>>-----

I agree......Dan had THE BEST Black Gaps EVER!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I can't stop looking at it. How hard is it to get? Does it just take money or knowing the right person?
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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>I can't stop looking at it. How hard is it to get? Does it just take money or knowing the right person?
>>-----

It's a little of both......I am trying to create some the hard way.....I have 1.1 that are definite het hypo and possible het anery.......maybe they will produce hypos, aneries and ghosts.....but for sure hypos......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

There is nothing wrong with that way at all. I love true locale morphs.
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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>There is nothing wrong with that way at all. I love true locale morphs.
>>-----

I just hope the anery gene pays off.........and I, too love locality morphs.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Put me down for one of those. I put that as my background on the iPad. Sweet!
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Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

The Bulls-Eye Black Gap he had pictured on his site ( not sure if it is there anymore ), I purchased that snake in 2003 from Dan.
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Genesis 1:1

>>The Bulls-Eye Black Gap he had pictured on his site ( not sure if it is there anymore ), I purchased that snake in 2003 from Dan.
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1

I know EXACTLY which one you are talking about Billy......whatever happened to it?........

Very cool alterna.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yea, I purchased it from him in 2003. He never was able to produce any offspring from him, and he thought the snake was not producing viable sperm.

He passed away a few years back from old age. Very good experience in keeping him. He was very calm and a breathtaking snake to look at.
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Genesis 1:1

>>Yea, I purchased it from him in 2003. He never was able to produce any offspring from him, and he thought the snake was not producing viable sperm.
>>
>>He passed away a few years back from old age. Very good experience in keeping him. He was very calm and a breathtaking snake to look at.
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>>Genesis 1:1

Very cool experience.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Here....Let me teach you something.......

John, it's great to present these fundamentals. They're what it's all about, reduced to the essence. Some people fit what they thought things were into this vocabulary, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. We're all well served by remembering these terms.

However...I have a few questions.

1) You say:

>If an animal has no red in its normal form it can NEVER be anerythristic...

What if, way back in time, the species or subspecies showed red, but over time a dominant anerythristic trait "took over" until ALL specimens were anerythristics. We (herpers) come along eons later, and don't see what the animal WAS, but rather only what is visible to us now, and we label that "normal" instead of anerythristic. I'd argue (and I have no problem with this idea being challenged) that various black and white snakes ARE anerythristics, it's just that the genes for expressing red were lost, or bred out, way before recorded history.

2) I'm also a little confused by two different parts of your statement, which i've divided into parts here (without deleting anything):

>>I believe that yellow and orange are within the make up of red

Can you elaborate on this? I don't understand. Any foundation for that observation in terms of genes, skin pigment, whatever?

>>so an animal that is Anery can be Axanthic but an animal that is Axanthic doesn't necesarily mean it's axanthic....

This part's a little confusing because you're saying two different things, and the first is conditioned "can be" and the second "doesn't necessarily mean". Those two conditionals COULD be interpreted to mean the same thing, though I think you're making a different point. Could you maybe rephrase what you believe, using clearly different conditionals? Thanks, John.

td
>>
>>Okay....I said my peace...AGAIN......LOL
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

>>>>"...so an animal that is Anery can be Axanthic but an animal that is Axanthic doesn't necesarily mean it's axanthic....

John, I realized after submitting the post just above this one that there's probably a typo in your statement. At the end, did you mean, "but an animal that is axanthic doesn't necessarily mean it's anerythristic"? That's the way I took it.

>>>>>>"...so an animal that is Anery can be Axanthic but an animal that is Axanthic doesn't necesarily mean it's axanthic....
>>
>>John, I realized after submitting the post just above this one that there's probably a typo in your statement. At the end, did you mean, "but an animal that is axanthic doesn't necessarily mean it's anerythristic"? That's the way I took it.

You are correct Terry....I did have a typo there......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>What if, way back in time, the species or subspecies showed red, but over time a dominant anerythristic trait "took over" until ALL specimens were anerythristics. We (herpers) come along eons later, and don't see what the animal WAS, but rather only what is visible to us now, and we label that "normal" instead of anerythristic. I'd argue (and I have no problem with this idea being challenged) that various black and white snakes ARE anerythristics, it's just that the genes for expressing red were lost, or bred out, way before recorded history.

I can actually fathom that.......there are some that believe in the south to north genetic flow with all lampropeltis....in this believe there is a great grandparent lampro that is a tricolor.......Ruthveni?

But I don't see a way we can prove that our common kings evolved from a snake with red.......what if before that they were all green or brown? You know if you mix all the colored together in the Crayola box you always get brown....lol

>>>>I believe that yellow and orange are within the make up of red......

There is one example that I can think of where orange is the hypoerythristic expression of a snake that is normally red.........pumpkin sinoloans........

So with the thought that yellow and orange are within the pigment make up of red.....an anery animal can be both anery and axanthic.....but......
An axanthic is not anery............
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

So, if they come out of the wild with no red then they are anerythristic already right?
-----
Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>So, if they come out of the wild with no red then they are anerythristic already right?

Who are "they?"
If "they" have red normally and the red is replaced with no pigmentation (white) then "they" are anery.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I was joking about what younsais the other day.
-----
Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>I was joking about what younsais the other day.

Eye.......NO.......................LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I love the first pic.

Your axanthic spledidas seem to be more black than brown compared to some I have seen. Is that just a line thing. or are there two traits out there? Did they all come from one source? or did this trait pop out of several different collections.

i don't remember if you mentioned its history before.

-----
There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Splendidas are as variable as Calkings, but there are no defined boundaries such as coastal vs. desert cal kings.

The brownish animals are found throughout their range.....so are the solid black animals.

It seems the prevelant axanthics are black and white (or blue).....never brown.

The true recessive hypomelanistics are brown.....and they breed truly recessive.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

No I am talking about brown axanthics. With the new Enlgand line I occasionally pop one out. They are true axanthic but sometimes you get some with a brownish tinge. I saw the same with the splendidas.

actually the true new England line axanthics are all born kinda brown. Whereas the lemkes are born much pretteir looking as they are a beautiful blue. But the NE are the ones that turn out ghost looking. While the lemkes are you run of the mill axanthics. Both lines are the same thing. Meaning they are compatiple. It mus have something to do with the phenotype that causes the brown ....

I think i have one in my collection. i will take a pic of it tommorow and post it to show you what I mean.
-----
There is nothing worse than natural selection.

www.Bluerosy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cool......I will look forward to a pic from you as we haven't seen one in a LONG time.....LOL

But.....you must not confuse your knowledge of Floridana with all other Lampropeltis......Just sayin.

Do you believe that the "Anery" Honduran was mis labelled?
I do.......I believe it was Hypoerythristic.
Anery would be white not pink or lavender................
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Do you believe that the "Anery" Honduran was mis labelled?
I do.......I believe it was Hypoerythristic.
Anery would be white not pink or lavender................

my anery hondos arent pink or lavender the snows they make are though so maybe...through color subtraction you can remove red and still get pink though so...
,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>Do you believe that the "Anery" Honduran was mis labelled?
>>I do.......I believe it was Hypoerythristic.
>>Anery would be white not pink or lavender................
>>
>>my anery hondos arent pink or lavender the snows they make are though so maybe...through color subtraction you can remove red and still get pink though so...

So....what color are your anery HONDOS?
Is the normally red bands replaced with no pigment (White)?

By definition........Anery is the total lack of red pigmentation.
Hypoerythrisic or Hypo-E is the reduction in red pigmentation (Pink).

Look at the true aneries.....Alterna for example.......Gray, black and WHITE..

But......
Corns have a couple types of Anerythrism.......So I, too believe it is more than just "by definition"........

As Rainer stated they are just names we label them as without knowing the complete genetic information......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

my anerys hondos have no pink. grey and black all the way ive produced doubles from both, the ghosts and snows are pink so??? another wrench...
,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>my anerys hondos have no pink. grey and black all the way ive produced doubles from both, the ghosts and snows are pink so??? another wrench...

yep....OUR labels are not always correct, huh?
Makes me love morphs more and more......LOL

So....Your Aneries are black and white?.......Like Ghosts?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>So....Your Aneries are black and white?.......Like Ghosts?

no my aneries are black and greyish brown...


ghost and anery

-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>>So....Your Aneries are black and white?.......Like Ghosts?
>>
>>
>>no my aneries are black and greyish brown...

Cool....whatever they really are I still think they are mislabelled as anery..........I still think Hypoerythristic.......Something less than red but not quite total lack of red pigment......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I'm pissed!
Everyone likes the Axanthic Splendie but no one likes the others.....especially the Croatian Situla.........lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John, if you posted this in the rat snake forum, they'd be all over the situla! LOL GREAT situla BTW - and this will be the year for them...
-----
-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>John, if you posted this in the rat snake forum, they'd be all over the situla! LOL GREAT situla BTW - and this will be the year for them...
>>-----
>>-Toby Brock
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

There's a rat snake forum?........wow again!..........
J/k.......I hope we get to see some baby situla next Summer.......

Btw everyone the situla I am working with are Toby's..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I use to have some a long time ago. They are cool little snakes. Now I'm into Mollendorffi.
-----
Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>I use to have some a long time ago. They are cool little snakes. Now I'm into Mollendorffi.

I like Mollendorfi too.............I'm just trying to get these croatian situla to successfully reproduce........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've always admired Moellendorff's. I thought about getting some but a friend who keeps them says his adults make large beauty snakes look small, and I draw the line with Chinese beauties, as far as size...
-----
-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

They are big and bad. They like it cold too. It in my top 10 favorite snakes.
-----
Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Well, you got a LOT closer to it than I have - I think they'll go again for you...

I might have to get some Greek situla eventually - supposedly they are much less picky than the Croatians...
-----
-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I really enjoyed that pic John posted earlier of the Calico Beauty. Would have liked to see the whole body on that one too, lol.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I really enjoyed that pic John posted earlier of the Calico Beauty. Would have liked to see the whole body on that one too, lol.
>>-----
>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra
>>
>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jorge, you're askin' for trouble! LOL Here comes a bunch of OT pics!

That big female calico is one of my very few named snakes - she is "Calendar Girl" because she was the April snake in The Ratsnake Foundation's 2007 calendar.

Here she is with her '07 clutch.

And with her '09 clutch.

And her 2010 clutch...

One of her '07 male calico offspring with a female T positive albino.

A yearling male calico.

A yearling het for calico female.

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I have to admit, I had not seen those before. They are stunning! I have been itching to get some Old World rat snake for some time. I just can't decide which ones. Those could be on my wish list now, if I can afford them, lol. Do you work with the Red Tail Green rats?
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jeez - this site doesn't let me stay signed on long enough to respond properly! LOL

Anyway... Hopefully that big female calico will produce some nice babies this coming season. She and her old mate have been great breeders so far...

I don't keep Gonyosoma oxycephalum - mainly because they get too big for my little snake room, but I would if I could. Awesome snakes...

Last year, I started keeping some snakes which are related to Gonyosoma though, and I like them a lot. Rhino Ratsnakes (Rhynchophis boulengeri) from my friend Rob Stone - and should be getting some more from him in 2012. This species is becoming one of my favorites - they are both arboreal and semi-aquatic, and wil spend a lot of time soaking - even in a very moist / humid setup. They will eat small fish in water as babies, although I have not tried it - don't want to have to switch them back to rodents.

I have kept other Asian species and will be getting a few more this year, but will have to comment on them elsewhere because I am sure my time is about to run out here. LOL

My yearling male Rhino...

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I've wanted some of those since the first time I saw them! I had some of the Red Tails but they were imports. I really like them but they did't survive. They seemed really stressed out. I might try again someday with Captive born. Or maybe I'll set my sights on some Rhinos! Tanks for the pics.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Hey John, I have to admit I didn't notice it was a Leopard Rat. I love leopards! I am so used to you posting the mexicanas I just sort of glanced over it. Those are some of my favs. In fact I would love to be on a waiting list for some. Maybe some more full body shots just for me. I'm sure no one will complain, lol!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Are they stripes???
-----
Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Are they stripes???

This pair is not striped.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

A normal conversation on the forum with no freakin arguments!

Why is that?

Is it because "the opposition" did not reply at all.......

It seems to be personal.....I am not down with that crap at all....

It's about the snakes........to me........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

No arguments because children were on their best behaviour. Sincerely stated.
Kinda nice. Feel like a parent whose kids finally were quiet and quit their name calling.

See..it isn't that hard to make a choice to act like an adult. You just have to want to make that choice, and you are seeing that.

Cool thread!
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Genesis 1:1

That axanthic splendida shot is really cool. Love the egg shots too. You can really spend a lot of time trying to get those. At least thats the way it goes for me!

--Dennis

>>That axanthic splendida shot is really cool. Love the egg shots too. You can really spend a lot of time trying to get those. At least thats the way it goes for me!
>>
>>--Dennis

Thanks Dennis......and getting pics of anything that moves is trouble for me......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John I love that splendida!

However your "Wow" comment wasn't fair and balanced, lol. I'm sure the other side can have a great thread woithout the buddies. Just sayin.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Man.....I hope everyone doesn't think that I am on any side.........I try to get along with everyone........lol

Read my reply to Gerard........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

First two snakes are my fave!
WOW!
-----
Genesis 1:1

>>First two snakes are my fave!
>>WOW!
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy.........that Splendida girl is hyooj!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I am all about head shots John…....lotsa fun!

…..since you threw in a situla………

….wooops!...........

And why not end the fun with a snake that is hardly ever discussed . . . . . .

" alt="Image">
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Those black and whites are something else. That leopard print one.....not so good. Thanks for posting man!
-----
Gerard

"I've lived a thousand times, I've found out what it means to be believed"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Awesome Jerry!
But I don't think ANYONE has Dial Up anymore......lmao!!!!

Cool picture of Tom and Rainer.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Very cool snake pics!
Is that a northern I see?
-----
Genesis 1:1

Yessir, it is...
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

All are gorgeous Jerry, but that 3rd Zonata is incredible!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com