Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This coming breeding season I am going to prevent any breeding, as I have not sold one single snake this year. I have one friend who says he wants to get a trio of pyros next spring but not a sure thing. Another friend who is a breeder owes me money on mice, but he has been slow pay because he, too, is suffering this sludgy economy, resulting in feeble sales. Fortunately I have only 8 babies and they are small type snakes, so I can just keep them indefinitely if need be. But any more and there will be major housing issues. This makes it hard for me to buy any more snakes, though. Unless I can sell some I wont be able to get that special one I am expecting a noted breeder to produce next summer.

is anyone else having this sort of recession based dilemma?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I had to wholesale off my baby kings I produced in 2011. I'm hoping producing visuals instead of hets will help and I'm planning 2012's pairings with an eye towards that. If 2012 is as bad as 2011 I'll have to rethink breeding though I had my baby kings from June till November with not a sale. I didn't exactly expect the world to beat down my door but I hadn't expected it to be that slow either and it caught me flatfooted.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

I am kind of wondering if maybe keeping pet snakes is a trend that is waning. People get these pets then grow bored with it. Grokking the unique behavior of a snake is not in the mentality of the general pet keeping public.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>This coming breeding season I am going to prevent any breeding, as I have not sold one single snake this year. I have one friend who says he wants to get a trio of pyros next spring but not a sure thing. Another friend who is a breeder owes me money on mice, but he has been slow pay because he, too, is suffering this sludgy economy, resulting in feeble sales. Fortunately I have only 8 babies and they are small type snakes, so I can just keep them indefinitely if need be. But any more and there will be major housing issues. This makes it hard for me to buy any more snakes, though. Unless I can sell some I wont be able to get that special one I am expecting a noted breeder to produce next summer.
>>
>>is anyone else having this sort of recession based dilemma?
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No recession in my neck of the woods.....but I guess the hobby is affected by the parts of the nation that are in a "recession".....

It is a great idea to breed what you like in these times where others can't afford to spend money.........I don't mind raising up the ones that do not sell as hatchlings and sell them as sub adults or adults later......for a tad bit more.....

I have 23 snakes left to sell......some 2010s and some 2011s....not that bad out of the 100 or so that were available starting this Summer......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I think there's also an emotional impact if you don't sale ONE frigging snake--you go to effort, and are proud of your babies...then no one wants them
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>>
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

>>I think there's also an emotional impact if you don't sale ONE frigging snake--you go to effort, and are proud of your babies...then no one wants them
>>>>
>>>>
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>>We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Yea.... It's too bad nowadays that most folks would rather purchase visual morphs instead of hets and wild types........ Not everyone's passionate about normal phenotypes.....most are in the hobby for the novelty animals....
I like both..... Especially locality morphs......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

No recession in my neck of the woods.....but I guess the hobby is affected by the parts of the nation that are in a "recession".....
Everything is bigger in Texas, even the economy! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>No recession in my neck of the woods.....but I guess the hobby is affected by the parts of the nation that are in a "recession".....
>>Everything is bigger in Texas, even the economy! LOL!
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>>Bob
>>Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
>>Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Unfortunately, you are also seeing the reality of basically supply exceeding demand.

Too many people breeding snakes, producing more than the actual demand shows.

I even know of one ball python breeder who did not even sell a single snake till after the first of the next year, at one time.

I saw this at the shows I used to vend at, in the mid nineties. Lackluster sales at some shows. Other shows were better. I then would wholesale my snakes either at the end of the year or when the opportunity arose. A chain of pet stores in the south used to pick up snakes from my snake breeding partner and myself. Wholesale prices back then were pretty decent, and it was still money in the bank, no matter how you looked at it. It was still a profit.

I also see the same ads for months and months in online classifieds. That is proof also that supply exceeds demand. If the snakes were selling, the same ads would not be up.

Which makes me ask the question?

Does everyone really have to breed any and all snakes they buy?

Good topic!
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Genesis 1:1

Does everyone really have to breed any and all snakes they buy?
Good point!

I bought a patternless sunglow bull because that way I have what I want without having to breed a lot a hets and wind up with extra babies not patternless. I feel sorry for all the babies that are not the intended color or pattern; the culls, as one could call them.

I think eventually my pyros will move. But I fear I may be stuck with three extra male bulls indefinitely. I want them to have a good life, even if I have to keep them myself.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

It's crazy, you do see the same adds over and over. I think the problem is most people think that they can make money breeding "the next big thing". Which is hardly ever the case. That's why all my snakes are pets. I don't care if they all breed or if I sell a lot of babies. I just enjoy keeping and watching them.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

what type of softshell is that?? Looks really funky
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>>GONE FISHING!!!
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

That's a Anderson's flapshell(Lissemys puctata andersoni). It's a really cool turtle. I should start breeding trials in 2012.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

" I think the problem is most people think that they can make money breeding "the next big thing". Which is hardly ever the case. That's why all my snakes are pets. I don't care if they all breed or if I sell a lot of babies. I just enjoy keeping and watching them. "

Exactly!

Your attitude, to myself, is the best one to have.

Those of us who have been around a while can and do have a good sense of how the business works, even within the variables that may pop up.

" The next big thing " is all in the eye of the beholder.
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Genesis 1:1

>>" The next big thing " is all in the eye of the beholder.

Yep....and that is why it is important to reproduce the animals you like.....that way it doesn't bother you if they don't all sale......

Some go as far as to holding back only the ones the select few they like and freezing and/or feeding off the others........I can't bring myself to doing that because some of the "culls" may be beauties to others because beauty is in the eye of the beholder as well......

And I am sure glad I have a good paying job and a hobby that almost pays for itself....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" Some go as far as to holding back only the ones the select few they like and freezing and/or feeding off the others........I can't bring myself to doing that because some of the "culls" may be beauties to others because beauty is in the eye of the beholder as well...... "

That is beyond ridiculous that some would be that selfish, but ah, such is life and the humans involved.
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Genesis 1:1

>>That is beyond ridiculous that some would be that selfish, but ah, such is life and the humans involved.

We breed rodents, freeze their offspring and use them for reptile food why can't we breed other reptiles for king snake food........but I hear you loud and clear......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I agree, I don't see anything wrong with feeding snakes to snakes. Just killing them for no reason doesn't make any sense.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

.........and problem solved. Works for all types of snakes, not just corns!..

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LOL!!!
Did you make this image? Hilarious!

Although that two headed corn would not be a cheap cull! My friend who also keeps pyros had an egg hatch a couple years ago with two little snouts poking out, He was so excited at the possibility of a two headed snake he bought champagne and beer; the former if two headed and the latter if just twins. Alas, only the beer got consumed. I have one of the twins.

Old baby pic of Zuni the twin. The other twin my friend still has.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yeah, I photoshopped that up a couple years ago for a thread on the cornsnake forum..LOL!

Twins are pretty cool too though..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I remember that whole thread, about people culling all their unwanted hets, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yeah, the dude that fed all his young snakes(corn morphs and bullsnakes) to his kings that he didn't sell at the show right off the bat instead of selling them or giving them away elsewhere really pissed me off. That is just pure inexcusable laziness!. Billy knows who I am talking about..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS I do!
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Genesis 1:1

Freezing off snakes because they are not the desire colored specimens is what I was speaking about, which is a very selfish and pointless act. Feeding snakes to other snakes is in itself natural overall, but doing so just because the snakes are again, not the desired color or pattern, is still foolish. Why not just wholesale them out? Seems like a waste. The breeder can make a few bucks from selling them to a dealer, a customer out there can buy a snake they find that they like. Everyone wins.
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Genesis 1:1

I agree, I only do it with snakes that only eat snakes. That goes back to there is nothing wrong with wholesaling stuff that you can't sell. I wish you had some baby northerns up for grabs. They wouldn't last long........lol!
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

" I wish you had some baby northerns up for grabs. "

HA HA!! Thanks man!

I actually do want more, as they are my favorite all time snake. Nothing can compare.
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Genesis 1:1

Yep, keepig stuff you like is the way to go. I make a living off my turtles but I love every species I keep. I don't even like selling them. I do very well with them and they let me keep the snakes I like without worrying about selling them. Also, there is nothing wrong with selling more common stuff like floridana wholesale. There is so many of them it seems the logical way to go. If someone has thousands of one thing the price cannot be that high. That's just the way it works.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

........supply and demand..

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Those OBX are a good example of snakes I could care less about selling. They are amazing animals.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I totally agree that they are very special and unique snakes!

I always admired Outer Banks kings as a kid too from reading about them in books.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

And Bucky is priceless there, my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

"And Bucky is priceless there, my friend!"

He sure is Billy!,...he sure is!..

The cute puppy pic was a littermate to Bucky that I took when I was playing with him one day..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I never get tired of looking at all your stuff Doug. Is that little one in the 7th pic from this year? It's smokin!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Thanks Jorge,......

No, that is actually a pic of my "high-yellow" sire when he was very young..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

is that your male or female?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

That's the male. He just shed before that pic. He got more speckling after that one.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"That's the male. He just shed before that pic. He got more speckling after that one"

Yeah, it's amazing how pronounced it can get in so little time. For example, here is the dark male as a hatchling. As you can see, he has very little speckling here in this pic.

Here he is as he matured a good bit.....He sure did lighten up a bunch in his dark interbands too!..

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I can't wait!
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I see the results in the classifieds. Milks, rats, hogs, mtn. kings take up one page, while the BP classifieds have 13 pages of ads and the prices are still high. Guess the colubrids will have to take a vacation for a while and cede to the Ball Pythons.

mike

So you think the demand outweighs the the supply for Balls?
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I am always amazed at how popular ball pythons are, considering their propensity for having difficult feeding issues. Why not just get a nice big bull snake and not have to bother with coaxing it to eat! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yeah, but it goes back to what you said about a lot of the people that start keeping snakes now do it for reasons other than they like snakes. Ball pythons are popular because people think they can make a lot of money with them. Your pits are way more interesting and cool. They even come in a bunch of colors if that what your into. You can't get bored with one of them.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Is that cobra yours? Absolutely awesome! I am on the lookout for another baby rattlesnake, to keep for awhile. I find them occasionally around my property.

My new sunglow bull baby; far prettier than any ball python, in my humble opinion.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

That's the girl. She is a lot bigger now and in my friends collection. I had to temporally relocate my venomous due to my daughter being born and my son is due this upcoming Monday. It doesn't seem smart to keep them until they can understand what it means for them to be there. I have a good while to wait. I really miss them a lot. I love rattlesnakes more than anything I think. I caught this little pig on Christmas eve right near my house.

This is my favorite girl. She is a lot bigger now.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I succumbed to the house of BP myself. Haven't sold a single colubrid so I just purchased 3 high end ones so I can envision something different next time I breed them. All those morphs will get to you sooner or later.

I started doing ball pythons When the morphs started. I grew up working for one of the guys responsible for a lot of the coolest morphs out there today. It is cool the combos that are possible. Those things are nice but my regular WC brooksi are way nicer in my opinion. I meet a lot of people that don't know anything but Ball morphs. They can't tell you anything about reptiles in general but know who produced what morphs first. I think it should be considered a separate hobby all together. However, I do not have a single problem with bales or anyone that keeps them. I see some crazy stuff every week that hatches. I just won't keep them anymore.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I agree.

Colubrids are actual "snakes" in my opinion, while Ball Pythons are pretty much "painted rocks" to me that just sit there..LOL!

To each his/her own I guess.

One thing I will say though, they are much easier to position and photograph than milksnakes, kingsnakes, ratsnakes and others I work with..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

" I meet a lot of people that don't know anything but Ball morphs. " True, but speaking for myself after vending at the White Plains show a few times, some folks just don't know anything. I would get adults and older teens asking about "community setups" with corns, kings, milks, co-habitating in the same tank like tropical fish. They carry around laptops, but haven't the time to read up on the species. It's still going on.
Have to wonder why they carry computers in the first place?
All the info is out there, including some folks who take the time to go one on one with you.

Lol! That's funny.....they were wondering about Interspecies bonding. It's sad how people don't take the time to read books and learn. They would be supprised to know how much cool stuff is out there. Forget the stuff you see on here, there is so much stuff that doesn't even make it here that is really awesome.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"It's sad how people don't take the time to read books and learn"

Sadly, I agree with BOTH you guys in a big way. We are now in the times of simply clicking on morph pictures on the internet instead of ever reading much of ANYTHING about any of the snakes we keep natural history or what makes them different from other closely related snakes, etc...

I seriously doubt that the majority of Ball Python hobbyists even know which specific part of Africa the Ball Pythons are native to. This goes for any other type of snakes most people own.

A good example of this would be when not long ago a person asked me after I explained the natural range of Honduran milksnakes...... "how can a genuine locality Honduran milksnake come from central Nicaragua?"

..HAHAA!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You are seeing 13 pages of ads for Ball Pythons because that whole scene is so overcrowded, and way more is produced than the demand, and no one wants to lower their prices. People will also complain on other sites if someone lowers their price at all, crying " Market Crasher ".

Also, new " morphs " are named if a normal ball python has the slightest different shade or one different marking than another. LOL!!

All of this really makes one think, from the first impression, that the basic crowd in that scene is in it for the love of the animal. ( note sarcasm )
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Genesis 1:1

Bob, I am definately going to be very selective on what I breed next year. Many snakes will not be bred, because of the economy and mainly because I tend to hold on to too many babies to see how they develope, then decide which I want to keep. most of the snakes I breed go thru such a huge change as they mature, and I have some projects that require certail trats to be carried fourth, so I have my hands full. Last year my sale shot up right after the new Year when people started getting tax return money.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

The three baby bulls I want to sell are kingsville x Stillwater. As they develop their colors go through quite a change. So it may not be such a bad thing to have them around awhile.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yup! That's what's killing me, I have a bunch of Florida kings and Corns, and I want to hold back the cream of the crop. I am patiently waiting for the cream to rise, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

....if the snake is worth 50$ online...because this is what you see everyone selling them for...just remember that they bought them from people like you for $15 as a wholesale lot...

....snakes always sell...always......the price just has to be right....

check local pet shops....local shows...or online ,all the ads saying, "we want your babies"....

..the friend owes you money....he owes you money...who cares about his problem with selling for cash , cash for you?...he owes you...and he needs to payup...now...make it clear to him...his problem isn't your problem........
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........JY

....if the snake is worth 50$ online...because this is what you see everyone selling them for...just remember that they bought them from people like you for $15 as a wholesale lot...

check local pet shops....local shows...or online ,all the ads saying, "we want your babies"....

Good ideas. Will check out some local reptile stores. Trouble is, the nearest store is over 80 miles away. The only local pet store went out of business recently and the only other one is a Petco, which is a closed corporate system. I don't ship, as that would double the price. Do have a chance to send them up with a friend doing next year's shows.

..the friend owes you money....he owes you money...who cares about his problem with selling for cash , cash for you?...he owes you...and he needs to payup...now...make it clear to him...his problem isn't your problem........
Slow pay doesn't mean no pay. Also I helped create this situation by voluntarily extending him credit. So I feel it is only fair that I am patient with him. He is paying a little at a time and through equipment in lieu of cash.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

before you go to the store 80 miles away, give 'em a call, maybe establish a go to person. let them know you've done this for a while, have a web presence (?) and can provide references.keep in mind that you selling to a retail store, you get paid a whole sale price if asking for cash...maybe you will do better value-wise bartering for goods?

idk, you probably already thought of these things, just adding the $.02 that came to mind first. good luck moving them.

daveb
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

This is the worst time of year to sell snakes. Wait until tax return season starts. Also Christmas, NEw years ext. It is this way every year from thanksgiving until late feb.

Also just cool the little pyros. Put them away and forget about them until tax season.

Problem solved.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Why do you think this is a bad time of the year to sell animals? If you have animals that end up as pets or animals that are in demand this is a great time of the year. I sold out this year. The last group went out last week. It all depends on what you work with and what you think it's worth compared to what it actually is worth. Happy New Year!

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

My baby pyros are being cooled, anyway. The idea about tax time will fit right in with when they have been awake awhile and feeding good.

The baby bulls are another matter. They are awake, feeding, and getting enormous. But I feel they should have the opportunity to Be All They Can Be, not underfed so they will look like babies longer.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I raise/ breed/ sell snakes solely for the joy I get out of it. I have no desire at the moment to make money off of them and most years I barely break even. When I have to many babies, I'll let them go for dirt cheap... I once went to a herp society meeting with 32 baby normal and amel corns for 5 bucks each. sold them all in a matter of minutes.

I really feel for the guys producing 100s or 1000s of babies every year... especially when they go for prices that few people can afford.

I think if the breeders in our hobby were limited to just people that have a genuin love/ appreciation for these animals and stive to produce the best animals possible for the best prices possible, things would be in fantastic shape. There are lots people out there that are just in it for the money and flood the market with a lot of "crap"... ugly examples, hybrids, snakes of unknown origins... kinda hurts things for people with quality animals.

That was perfectly said. Quality over Quantity!

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Well said!,......

The more recent internet being available to everyone off the street is directly responsible for the phenomenon.

I started out being fascinated with snakes ever since I can remember, and owned countless snakes from the age of 6 or 7. It was because I genuinely wanted to learn as much as possible about them, not because everyone else was doing it like it is today.

Breeding snakes was never even a thought of anyone's back then, just dreaming of actually OWNING some of the one's I saw and read about in many snake books I had was what truly stoked the desire to own and work with them even more.

As a kid, I was always involved with different types of sports activities like many other kids were back then. I hated reading most types of books, and found most books to be EXTREMELY boring. But snake books were a different story altogether..

I think many (but not all) hobbyists now are totally lacking in a really good foundation and appreciation of many snakes of the world entire natural history. They just want to click on "cool" pics and ask a few questions one at a time rather than actually have a desire to really understand much about them, or what actually makes many of them different from one another. Anyone can do it whenever they want to, but most don't seem to want to devote much time and energy learning about them when they could be throwing some snakes together and making some babies to sell(or not sell as the case may be now).

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Your post could not be any more perfect!

Great and wise words!
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Genesis 1:1

I agree. I was just hoping to sell some of my babies to make room, as I have a small house with limited space. But these are my babies and I am very find of them, so unless they can go to good homes, the heck with it, I will keep them.

Everyone deplores puppy mills; well, snake mills are a problems, too.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.