Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Long time no see )
Maybe you guys and gals have heard about our Zeros™
Here is a pic of their latest development.

Here you can learn more about our Zeros™

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The #1 Boa constrictor website on the internet

Looking GOOD! you could of posted a pic or two of some nice dark contrasting Longicaudas while you were at it lol ^_^

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This page (hyperlink) on your website emphatically states that the creation of a snow boa is "almost null" in the wild and the ONLY explanation for creating such an animal in captivity is "pure commercial interest".

Here's the quote I'm referring to (italicized and bolded):
The favorite activity of some American boa keepers is to constantly create new color and pattern variants of the various species through selective breeding. As a tool for this purpose, a thorough knowledge of Mendel’s Square is required. We believe that some of these “breeders” know the principles of Mendel’s teachings better than the late Mendel himself at his time.

This is done out of pure commercial interest, and there is no limit when it comes to naming these “artificial mutants”.

Yet, in your future projects, you intend to produce "Anery Zeros" which would be the combination of two "genetic defects" (as you call it) just as a snow boa would be the combination of two genes.

The original Albino (both lines) and Anery genes all originate from Colombia as I understand it - so I'm curious to know how your 2 gene project which hails from Peru (anery Zero) differs in its intrinsic value and propagation-worthiness from a 2 gene project which hails from Colombia (snow boas). Especially when both share a common gene - the anery gene.

I'd really like to read your explanation of how what you're doing is morally superior to what you have lambasted for at least a decade now (morph creation and propagation). I assume the explanation will contain some detail about how you're not "commercially motivated" by this project, especially in light of the fact that you've applied for trademark protection to protect your financial interests.

Thanks,
Jonathan
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

This is something I have been thinking a lot about ever since I saw the anery, hypomelanistic, and zero longicauda's advertised on his site.

I would love to know the reason behind the U-turn.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

It appears at first to be a u-turn if you're familiar with his stance in the past. But, given that his website still has derogatory comments about morphs and US breeders, it's actually not a u-turn but in fact, hypocritical. He's doing exactly what he CURRENTLY says people should NOT do.
I'm not sure that there's any logical explanation, but I'm certainly open to anything he's willing to put out there and I'll read it with an open mind.
jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

The other thing that always puzzled me about the European elitist Boa COLLECTOR, is the refusal to acknowledge the locality that is Colombia. The Mark/Euro is a strong motivator when it comes to calling what everyone else has a "cross-breed" I suppose. This has never been more true that with the Boas from the US. The fact that every single Boa in the US is a crossbreed except for the animals obtained via the same documentable methods of a couple select friends of the elitist. Through no fault of those American breeders though. You see the US is where nearly every new mutation was pioneered and the process of Boa breeding was decoded.

The complete denial of each of the Colombian mutations that obviously came directly from Colombia, for some reason, the moment they when through customs and had their CITES paperwork cleared, would make a miraculous transformation to "Artificial Boas" or whatever the German Boa collector calls them.

As for the recent conversion to mutation COLLECTOR... Hypocrisy knows no boarders JB.

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Roger that... I found the info on his website very contradictory to the anti-morph stance. And what makes a morph(genetic variable) a weakness in the gene or a deficnecy? Things like skin color in humans. I.E. When a caucasion and an african amercian have a child, still a human, only difference is the color of sking and hair texture. So from his understanding of genetics these people would be genetically weaker and have health and living issues, but they are the same as everyone else. so why would it be any different in boas? it isn't its just a huge hipocit that just stepped in a huge steaming pile of boa poo....

typing on my phone forgive the spelling...

I believe you are confusing the production of an inter-species hybrid, with the multiple inbreeding necessary to produce a group of a specific genetic morph. Multiple inbreeding to produce a group of a specific morph does have a definite effect on the genetic fitness of any offspring to some degree, while the one time production of an inter-specific hybrid is much less likely to have this effect. Definite two completely different scenarios.

Kelly

Just to clarify as well. No inbreeding is necessary to reproduce a dominant or co-dominant/incomplete dominant Heterozygous animal. Scores of Motleys were produced before the first "inbreeding" attempts occurred. The same is true of Hypos and most likely all of these types of mutations.

Making a "super", presumably some inbreeding is required, though outbreeding to reach that goal is still possible, if infrequently done. The production of a super or a homozygous visual simple recessive mutation, assuming it is a rare one, requires the same inbreeding, with the same outcrossing possibilities unfortunately mostly avoided by breeders. In the case of Anerythritic Colombian Boas, this can be done with no inbreeding as that mutation is very common in import presumable, often from unrelated stock.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Jeff,
I completely agree and would clarify to say that most boa or python morphs in general, but obviously not all as you mentioned, will require some inbreeding to establish the line. I believe that this is the point most people are trying to make with the morph issue. That the morphs that do require a fair amount of inbreeding to establish, do in fact cause some degree of loss in genetic fitness. The other main issue involved the false assumption by the poster that producing a hybrid by breeding between to subspecies of the same species will inherently cause a loss of genetic fitness in the offspring. This is absolutely not an accurate statement. Thanks much for pointing out the vagueness of my initial post.

Kelly

One thing that should be acknowledged however is that inbreeding is not necessarily going to lead to a weaker individual. Yes, inbreeding is likely to increase the genome wide level of homozygosity, which in turn can result in the exposure of deleterious genes, either fatal or mild, however it is also known to purge deleterious genes and break deleterious gene combinations. This work has been widely carried out in Drosophila, and my recent work on bed bugs has shown a similar effect. When we look at Ron Trempers leopard geckos we see no reduction in fitness, and he has been inbreeding lines for many many generations.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

...just a plea from a guy who travels a lot... would you mind ditching the efforts to make bed bugs more hardy?

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

I think we are saying the same thing. I was speaking of genetic fitness and not necessarily physiological health. I have a colony of Mus where I have inbred certain lines heavily for over 30 years, representing nearly 100 generations, with no issues. As you alluded to, the problem arises when a deleterious gene or sequence is capable of being perpetuated which manifests as a physical defect or biochemical anomaly. This has occurred with a few boid morphs that are produced by inbreeding, but obviously not all of them. You are absolutely correct in that all inbreeding does not necessarily produce negative effects.

Kelly

As the Euro continues to plunge the zero boa is getting closer to $0.00

It's very easy to call designer boas bad because they are all products of defective (morph) genes.

As hard as it is to stumble across a new genetic morph, it would have to be exponentially harder to throw away all the money it could bring in.

I think he needs to be updating his website soon...
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I'm going to note that the angry gene in the BCL is not the same as the one in the "Colombian" boas it is a locale gene as is the zero regardless it is a cool looking boa and could def do some sweet things if or when bred into more colorful projects IMO
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Brandon Nixon

Hermann has publicly been against the creation and propagation of "defective" (morph) genes and even more so the creation of designer morph animals with multiple "defective gene" traits.

Yet, when he stumbles across a totally new "defective gene" trait, not only is he propagating it, he's publicly marketing it. Including applying for trademark protection.

And the animals he is using also have Anery genes, clearly a designer morph when produced.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Ouch baby, very ouch! LOL

lol You said exactly what I was thinking.

There’s a lot of good info on that site but I found this announcement to be contradictory to his public stances in the past, especially the insinuations against ‘us morphers’. Interesting. I’d also like to hear the response and I will keep an open mind.
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I've been looking at those for a while. and they are breath taking. I was wondering if the zero blood line traces back to the Edelbrock blood line? more specifically the wild caught Joel Rosen female that produce the fondling Edelbrock animals?

Yes Micah I was wondering if these originated or can trace their lineage back to the
guys at Atomic Reptiles or is Atomic Animals?

Are we talking about the same people ?

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Spelling error in my thread response title sorry . . .

I was wondering if these originated with. . . . .
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Lar,
Not sure if the atomic's trace back to the edelbrock line but i bet they do.I remember reading some thing about Meade and edelbrock blood lines being imported to Europe. Russo has pics of some stripe longi's that he produced that are almost the same as the zero's and the atomics. I while back (3 years maybe) someone here was selling a almost full reverse stripe that traced back to the edlebrock female. my bloodline is throwing normal sold stripes and the hypermel animals. so im guessing that most of the longi morphs that have popped up in the last couple of years al trace back to that one wc female.

Ahhh Alright thx for the history lesson Micah !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Very useful to know as I own an '08 hypermel female produced by you, Micah.

I love to see how it turned out/

Micah,
I've got a nice pic of her on my ipad...going to see if I can post it here. She is incredible...very dark and shimmers with iridescence.

Matt

Finding your very own defective gene to work with and propagate!!

By definition, you are now a morph breeder and since your animals have genes from two different morphs, you are also a designer morph breeder.

Welcome to the "dark side"!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Wow... Very cool.
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Richard Ceniceros

R these related to Sterlings here in the U.S.?

Joe

No Joe, these are not related. The Zeros are BCL (b.c. longicauda) and the Sterlings are BCI (b.c. imperator).

This may be a compatible gene, but it appeared in unrelated groups of different subspecies boas on different continents.

Plus the Sterlings are much more beautiful by a long shot ! That and the name is way cooler as well. I mean... Who wants Boas that rank as zero when you can have Sterling!?
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

U r too funny Mr. Ronne..........

Joe

Am I missing something? The apparent hypocracy of your anti-morph, elitist diatribe on your website (major holier-than-thou turn-off, btw), while promoting, even trade-marking, “your” morph is incredible! I read your post and re-read your website, and immediately thought; how can he possibly justify this dichotomy? ”Therefore the trademark protection will lead to a long-term stable value of this breeding, since the illegal use of the name Zeros™ can AND WILL be prosecuted relentlessly.” Wow…for someone so critical of the evil morph folks being driven by greed, you sure seem awfully worried about protecting the revenue stream you are expecting from your new MORPH project!

“We are also opposed to the production of "artificial boas" as it happens particularly in the U.S. Crossbred Boa constrictors with various genetic faults are bred among themselves there in order to produce "snowboas, jungleboas, chain-linkboas, ghostboas and so on..." I can’t help but notice how the object of your disgust seems to be less about sub-species crossbreeding, and more about the propagation of “various genetic faults”, since the original Jungle boas, as I understand it, were zoo stock, believed to be of pure Colombian stock, not crossbred, nor from the states, yet they make your list of abominations, as do ghosts, which may be of pure Panamnian or Colombian decent, for all you know. Plus, "genetic faults" do not require crossbreeding, as you have demonstrated, they can just as easily occur from within a sub-species population, but are not any-the-less genetic faults (you imply genetic defects)! Yet you are clearly incredibly proud of your boas that are carrying A PAIR OF GENTIC FAULTS, what you are calling Zero AND Anery??

And, what is this “particularly in the US crap”? Did not the Jungles, Russian T positive, Squaretail (an off-shoot of Kubsch pastel, which was even a…gasp…crossbreed!!), Strungle, Leopard, Marron…and now the Zero, just to name the ones I can think of, originate from outside the US, primarily if not exclusively, from Europe?

I‘m sorry to be so blunt, but Mr. Stoeckl, but I think you own the entire Boa community (and Americans in particular) apologies. You should apologize to the “morphers” for your long running and distasteful condemnation of the propogation of “genetic faults” that you are clearly so eager to practice now that it may be to your finaincial advantage. And, you should aplogize to the other misguided elitist for the same reason; your actions indicate your have effectively abandoned them and are now ready to cash in on your serendipitous discovery of the MORPH you call Zero. And I’ve already expalined why you have delivered a generalized insult to an entire country’s hobbyist population while the facts clearly show the basis for your insult to be incorrect.

I remain shocked at your behavior…it's unbelieveable…incredible…and most of all…disappointing…

Mark

Nice post Mark

quote-

And, what is this “particularly in the US crap”? Did not the Jungles, Russian T positive, Squaretail (an off-shoot of Kubsch pastel, which was even a…gasp…crossbreed!!), Strungle, Leopard, Marron…and now the Zero, just to name the ones I can think of, originate from outside the US, primarily if not exclusively, from Europe?

-end quote

I think the raptor boas also originated in Europe. If I'm not mistaken they are from Amsterdam.

-Anthony

U can add the Onyx/Black Boa to that as well..... Seems like several leopard morphs(from diff localities...) have popped up in Eu over the last few years....

Joe

And thanks to you too Joe. It seems there are either a huge number of American expats in Europe spitting out Boa morphs, or there are more Europeans just as guilty as we are. And I use the term "guilty" facetiously, I don't think any crime has been committed.

Mark

Thanks Anthony! I was sure I forgot some. I was doing what I typically hate doing, typing while in the midst of an emotional reaction instead of thinking, reflecting and researching, then putting out a well thought out response instead of a reactionary peice. But in this case, reactionary won out! LOL Thanks again for the contribution to my point!

Mark

Very nice Mr. Pollard.

Don't hold your breath Mark. Herman the German knew the statements he made regarding every morph on the planet being a cross were not true when he made them. Don't look for any honesty now. It's not going to happen.

Most Boa guys were not here to see the vicious attacks laid down by HS back in the day, attacking everything that he did not have as being a cross. This regardless of the factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. So now it has come full circle, and the pot has turned into the kettle, while pretending that he's different from the pot.

HS and his minions have bullied anyone in Europe who wished to pursue the morphs on any level. I have corresponded with many individuals who have been his victims. He is, or was, the godfather of of Boa purity in Europe. His level of his pretentiousness is on full display as he provides a piece of paper that purports to declare the authenticity of the Boas purchased from him. What dribble. What's most amazing is the number of people who fell for this. The morphers in Europe have mostly quietly gone about their business while constantly being under attack by the Stoeckl group.

No apology is coming Mark Pollard. A zebra cannot change his stripes.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Hi Jeff,

I don't know Mr. Stoeckl, and have never had any interactions with him. I am quite understanding and tolerate of the German culture. I usually spend 3-5 weeks per year in Germany on business, and interact with my German colleagues continuously via virtual media on an almost daily basis. I am aware of their typical and often misunderstood use of the english language, They can often appear direct and crass, although they don't mean to. However, what Mr. Stoeckl writes is beyond what one can write-off as poor translation or cultural misinterpretation. It's beyond amazing how he can, on one website, so intently argue both sides of an issue that are diametrically opposing. Seemingly, the only dependence on which position he takes at any particular time is how it will benefit him personally. Incredible. It would be interesting to hear his defense, I would like to think that there could be a misunderstanding, although I admittedly can't fathum one. But so far, he is quiet.

Thanks again Jeff, and happy New Year! (and of course, happy breeding season!)

Mark

This guy is getting a rep like DOUG M. @BOABASEMENT back in 1996.

its a shame!

A reputation that Doug M. deserves to this day. Andrew

I couldnt agree more. Very sad

Hypocrisy??? Why Defile a wonderful post and lambasted???? This is all Blasphemy!!! Some OPINIONS and or thoughts should be kept 2 themselves. Wait a sec maybe my opinion should be kept to myself. LOL B)muuuahahahahah

Great pics of the ZEROS Wish you the best with them.

Please explain to us how Mr. Stoeckl’s behavior is anything BUT hypocrictical?

He goes to great lengths to quite offensively lambast people for propogating “genetic faults” for financial gain. A significant portion of his website is dedicated to this activity. Then he markets, trademarks and aggressive threatens anyone who would infringe on his newly discovered and freshly trademarked set of “genetic faults”, for the expressed purpose of shoring up his revenue stream…i.e. high prices. In his own words: “Therefore the trademark protection will lead to a long-term stable value of this breeding, since the illegal use of the name Zeros™ can AND WILL be prosecuted relentlessly.” There’s not a lot of room for misinterpretation.

If people claim to have beliefs and morals, but their actions are intentionally and aggressively in direct violation of these supposedly core values…is this not hypocricy? What do you call it? Please enlighten us…

I think to have an opinion isn’t childish at all. But to be unable or unwilling to expalin the basis for it is at best immature. Childish if you perfer, but that’s your word, not mine.

Mark

I haven't heard anyone bash the zero. Nothing wrong pointing out someones marketing attempts on the forum that contardict the mans disdain for morphs. His lies about morphs, his apparent imtimidation efforts, his purists
views. Has nothing to do with being German, but everything to do with being an unfair and harmful (to the her community). This word needs to spread across the globe.

To quote the Zero website:

We want to stress, that these boas are purebred boa c. longicauda. It is well-known that in no other boa constrictor subspecies such a significant change of color occurs as in the long-tail boas.

I'd say this is inaccurate when you look at the super roswell boas (Suriname descent), or the pearlescent boas (Columbian descent) that were recently produced here in the U.S. If they are serious about color, then perhaps they should look at Jeff Ronne's Keywest boas (also Columbian descent).

Am I wrong?

-Anthony

You have to try to climb into the mind/marketing strategy that belong to Stoeckl. You see he declares that only 2-3% of the Boas in Europe are "Pure Bred" Boas. A figure that was pulled directly out of his... never where it came from. His friends have the stamp of approval to have, own and sell animals worthy of the arbitrary "pure bred" label. This strategy is necessary with the bullying tactics used on those he would target. I believe there are less than a handful of people in the US that Stoeckl would say own any "pure bred" Boas, though certainly there are hundreds of us who know of some of our animals that are not crosses of any kind. We know with just as much certainty as he does.

Any Boa Constrictor outside of the approved realm of The Stoeckl click, could not be considered in any way to be a real Boa Constrictor. The "Artificial Boas", as he calls them, are not worthy of any recognition by the Boa snob/hypocrite. That's just the way it is.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Wow, as I read the various comments I can't help but be reminded of another German with "purebred" human ideals who himself was not as purebred as he would have his followers believe. That turned out pretty horrendous.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Non-Aztec littermate from Aztec litter

The apex of Aztec development in the USA.

There is something going on there Andrew Potts. I can't put my finger on it yet, but clearly some Aztecs and almost all Key West Boas have something extra beyond just the pattern thing that makes the color go nuts when they get older. You have seen it. The world has seen it through your pictures and mine, yet those not involved in one or the other project ignore it, and even deny it.

It is very real and a bit of a puzzler for me how it happens or why it happens. It is all good and will result in... result in... ah... who knows what it result in, beyond killer animals! LOL But it can only be good right!?

I wonder... I really wonder what is going to happen when the Aztec and the Key West mutations meet... I think that is going to be a very good thing Andrew Potts. Very very good.

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Me too! Andrew

I thought that the roswell boa was a cross and not pure Suriname?

Needless to say I agree with the majority in that they are hyrpocrites in their stance on morphs and purebred localities...

Matt