Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm having problems with a pair of albino bulls I picked up at Tinley. I've had years of experience raising bulls and pines but this pair of bulls fails to thrive! They can't handle what I would consider good FULL meals. Rather they seem to require smaller meals. They were born back in August. I picked them up in October and I felt they were small but chalked it up to the usual scam of no one regularly feeds their babies they sell. So brought them home and today I was cleaning all my animals and got to the albino bulls. And I realized...they just aren't growing. Still small and skinny. Meanwhile a pair of Indiana locality bulls are now on large hopper mice... The albino bulls this past week were fed scrawny fuzzys and today I find one has this slimy poop with a pile of hair mixed in... I can't win!

So with no knowlegeable herp vet down the street or even two hours away... What is the opinion of you all here is going on? Sure glad I can quarantine stuff! Another pair of bulls I just got in recently from yet another source are taking off and thriving. So I know it isn't just me. It's like their ability to digest and GROW is being seriously impaired.

Just curious if anyone else out there has had similar issues with getting babies you bought from someone else and what the final result was. If they are struggling now, I worry they will never truly thrive and become decent breeders...

It sounds to me like they have some sort of intestinal parasite that is messing with their digestion. Can your local vet at least do a fecal exam to possibly identify any parasites?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I agree, I would give them a small dose of flagyl. That would most likely give them the jump start they need. If they have intestinal parasite, they won't grow and get nutritional values.

Jason

thanks, both of you. I'll have to take this route and see what happens. Other than the lack of growth they seem fine.

Have access to a microscope? Doesn't have to be the most exotic of same. If you can squeeze out some liqid/fece combination. Put it on a slide and apply a cover slip. A mid-level magnification is fine to view. If protozoans are present you'll see what looks like total chaos as they use there "tails" to propel around in all directions. The same can be done at any vet office; It doesn't need to be a "reptile vet". "Flagyl" is a brand name for metronidazole.. You can get it over the counter where tropical fish medications are sold though it won't be labeled as "Flagyl". It is sold in a sugar laced liquid form in Mexico, as it is used to treat diarrhea caused by protozoans in the food/ water(think Montezuma's Revenge). That is normally a 250mg per teaspoon dosage... humans get three teaspoons a day. Going back to the pills.. crush one and perhaps seperate the powder into quarters (if the pill is 250mg). Place in water and introduce same into snake via a small feeding tube, "pinky pump" or similer. Avoid tilting snake downward at the outset so the fluid doesn't simply run back out. Generally administration would be done two or three times a week apart to catch any "blooms" that might reoccur. Make sure any water bowls are sterilyzed and be wary of food that might carry the protozoans in their gut. This sounds daunting but really there's not much to it. Many animals carry them asymptomatically, lizards in particular. An interesting sidenote; In the 80's many animal keepers swore by Flagyl as being a appetite stimulant and would administer it regardless of adverse symptoms. I'm sure Google would reveal volumes on it. Make sure of course that they have adequate cool and warm zones to rotate through as too much or too little heat will negatively affect digestion. In lizards one can gather saliva from the mouth that will yield protozoa if present but snake physiology would make that more difficult. You can introduce a small amount of sterile water into the lower intestine and then express it to gain a sample for viewing by yourself or any vet (if none seems available). Most vet techs have practice since they look at fecal samples looking for worm eggs. Mites can also transmit protozoans... Good luck

Thanks for the advice and information. I'm going to call the local vet and see if I can walk them through it. Years ago I had an Amazon Tree Boa that I knew had contracted respiratory infection in his lungs. I had to call three different vets and even that one was angry and told me never to come back to him. He doesn't do snakes... I think he thought I was a druggie! Anyhow, thanks to today's internet searches and such I'm sure I can talk them into helping me out. I too think it's something parasitic in nature.

Understanding Reptile Parasites
by
Roger Klingenberg

This is a great source of information on parasites, how to do your own fecal exams with microscope, treatments and measuring dosages. Amazon.com has it, among other places online. Average price about $11.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

If it is any help, I have a P. d. deppei that started off very very picky for the first 2 1/2 years ...now takes every meal. She did gurg once way back when so I didn't feed for 10 days. She never gurged again. Her growth of course has been frustratinglin slow but she is now just about 3 feet, at 300 grams ...very healthy and robust ....just small for her age. I assume she'll keep growing for a while but will probably never be large for her species.

As for meals and gurging and stuff. Check out the Rat Snake forum ...I have a gurging Baird's that I'm treating and there's been some great discussion which anyone might gain something from. ...mostly by Doug Mong's generous contributions.

Hope for the best,
Brad
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See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com