Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Jake Milbrandt over at the hillbilly nation said it pretty well if you ask me.

"The closest thing to true dishonesty I've seen is people who have female deserts for sale that continue to offer the explanations that "we just haven't figured them out yet" or that "there aren't enough female deserts out there who are old enough to breed." While there might be a few people out there who still truly believe this, I think most of these people are simply making excuses in order to milk this thing as long as possible."

I'd have to say that stating we "haven't got the temperature dialed in right" is just about the same thing. If you're going to ride your John Deere tractor and proclaim yourselves the reptile police, you had better walk the walk or you're going to be called out. Stating that there's "no new information" is bull also. If you're going to yuck yuck your way through an episode of red neck radio about how "we don't have the temperature dialed in right", I'd have to say this is new information that should be discussed.

It's not me that won't let things go either. Some people continue to not speak The Truth on deserts girls. Some "respected" people that should know better.

Let's not forget the title of the show which desperately tries to discredit the "troll" only to continue this sham. No "troll" here, only the speaker of The Truth. Let it go and I do.

If you were wanting some concession speech forget it. It will never happen. Too many fragile egos and reputations.

Nobody wants to admit they screwed anyone and the people who got screwed are too proud to admit it.

If you want to feel vindicated, go look at the price of female deserts. Apparently not everyone thought you were wrong.

PS - remember......you are talking about a forum where just last year it was 'discovered' that female caramels don't make good breeders. Give them a few more years on the female deserts.

Hi Truth,

I am relatively new to this forum and to the ball python world. I have seen a few posts of yours in the last couple of weeks and am puzzled by these posts.

Can you please help the people who are new to this forum by giving me some background?

You seem to have an axe to grind towards desert females and to those who sell them, and it seems kind of personal. I mean no disrespect here, I'm just looking for information.

So for the background, can you please tell me of your personal experiences with deserts? Do you now own any or did you own any? Do you feel that you were ripped off? I am just trying to understand where your posts are coming from and to get information before I start putting more resources into desert females.

If you could share more of your desert experiences (excluding the politics) it would be very helpful to newbies like me.

Full disclosure: I have a breeder desert male and I'm just looking for info.

I am also curious on the background but I have been around longer. You have targeted Deserts only and have very much targeted Pro Exotics, Robin and Chad. You have never targeted Pete Kahl and his Deserts? Niether of which I know personally so have no feeling either way.

Why only Deserts, the same claims have been made on Caramels. Why not target the individuals who had some idea about those years ago. What about all the other morphs with problems, some of which I have not even seen mentioned by you yet?

As a responsible breeder, I have warned the few that have inquired about my Desert females. Something is very strange about your targeted attacks? Maybe it is my just not being in the loop...

Iwould also like to know where you are coming from. although I would agree that if the snake will not breed why the high asking price probably would not pay more than a normal for a female. And males breed well and make some nice morphs but what good are they if only males can be used, is there any corallation in female combos not being able to lay viable clutches.

One more thing why jump on caramels they do have kinking issues thay can be problematic breeders but they can still lay viable clutches. I for one would rather hear about a morph that does not work so i know what not to spend my hard earned money on.

don't know where Hillbilly nation is..but do they sell moonshine there ? made from real corn?. or sugar water?

anyways...what gets me...no matter what...desert females...should either be sold for like $300 or kept and proven by their owners?.....

I have no animals...I will rebuild my snake room if people send me 50 female deserts...wait...100 female deserts....I will raise them and breed them and see what percentage actually drops eggs....100 should be a good start....

anyone want an adress?...LOL.........

yea...I know....like I said...$2000 and up probably yet??? haven't looked lately...????for a hope and a dream...

I could read the Bible for that.....?....or believe in politics?...

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........JY

Hi,

I have no dog in this fight, so I don't really care about deserts either way, but if a breeder is claiming that they just "haven't got the temperature dialed in right" in order to explain the lack of fertility of desert females, then that is just horseshat. These are ball pythons, nothing more, nothing less. They should not require any temperature manipulation beyond standard seasonal variations, meaning offering cool options (high 60s-low 70s) and hot options (mid 90s to low 100s) so that they can develop follilces, successfully ovulate and deposit eggs. These are not diamonds or Boelen's that can utilize or require really cool options, they are balls that require minor temperature differentiation at best. Any suggestion otherwise is just nonsense, and anyone with more than a few years of python breeding under their belt ought to know better. To say otherwise stinks of bs to me.

Will

I have no idea if the theory will pan out and seems like it's been around enough to have been tried by now but at least initially it seems like a plausible theory to me. The mutations we breed are chemical changes that could have all kinds of more than skin deep effects (like kinking, spinning, etc.). One of those changes could be an inability to sense what temperature is proper for egg development so it was worth trying to see if not offering a hot end over say 85 helps with caramel and desert females. Maybe whatever lets other females know when it's time to move off the hot spot just doesn't work with one of these mutations. Not something I'm in a position to gamble on at this time but hopefully someone has given it a try just in case.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

Hi Randy,

I definately hear what you are saying, and I considered the same possibility. However, I keep coming back to the fact that a functional ball python should be able to sense the temperatures that will allow recruitment. I mean it is not reasonable to me to keep a ball that cannot sense that it occasionally needs hot (over 90) temps, whether it be for reproduction, immune function or digestion. That inability alone (if it is the case) would cause me to view the morph as unfit. I don't know, maybe it is just me, but all of these little "imperfections" that we allow into the breed as a whole, because we value the appearances, just weaken captive ball pythons as a group, especially as folks try to throw as many morphs together as they can to be in the first tier to create a new combo.

I didn't mean to turn this into soap box thing, but I just think that keepers out to use a little more caution when selecting morphs to work with and consider the the package as a whole, not just the appearance. Anyway, as I said before, I have no stake in deserts, so I really oughta just keep my mouth shut, but that ability has never been one of my skills. Thanks.

Will

I think it may be more a hormonal issue than a temperature thing or the regulation of its body core temp.

They are HIGH STRUNG for sure. They appear to burn through their caloric intake faster than other snakes.

(this is a basic generalization and I am sure that there are some girls out there that are less inclined to follow the general Desert pattern)

They(some?) also "appear" to go through a change as they mature. One day they are eating well and then suddenly they change....

I am going to throw out that there may be something in their genetic makeup that dictates hormone levels associated with the Desert. If the female produces too much of something(hormone) that blocks successful reproduction it may not matter what other genes we combine with it.

It's almost like they have a little bit too much "testosterone" in them and they are "amped up".

There could be a hormonal imbalance that could even effect the luteinizing hormone levels that regulate ovulation and the point when a mature follicle is released to meet sperm.

I still LOVE Deserts and they make GREAT stuff.... this gene appears tricky and it may keep some of what we want to accomplish with it out of reach. We may see rather "poor" results from girls but it may also make it worth the effort. We all want the easy road..... the Desert appears to be a bit more challenging.

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Kevin,
Had to read your post twice...there for a minute I thought maybe you knew my wife.....lol
Travis
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LAIR OF DRAGONS

...in HELL....

SATAN

>>Kevin,
>>Had to read your post twice...there for a minute I thought maybe you knew my wife.....lol
>>Travis
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>>
>>LAIR OF DRAGONS
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Kevin, that is a very interesting take to think that the desert girls might not have the hormonal balance right to produce viable eggs.

As I said above, I am new to this hobby, but as a biochemist you have triggered a whole bunch of ideas in my mind. Do you know of any studies measuring ball python hormone levels in females as they mature, produce follicles, ovulate, and lay their eggs? Comparing desert females hormone levels to normal levels at various stages would be very interesting...

Perhaps a little estrogen or oxytocin supplement at the right time would unlock the whole project!

No, I don't know of any studies or literature. Just an idea..

I do think " I know" that the Luteinizing hormones build up in the female bloodstream as the follicles mature. Since all follicles are not mature at the same instant there is a delay that "waits" for the others to catch up and mature. Once mature the hormone spikes and triggers ovulation. (Don't think oxytosin would help us here?) If a female is trigger happy due to not being able to hold off she could easily ovulate prematurely resulting to a pile of "slugs". If a female is too warm she will often ovulate in this same fashion without there ever being a chance for a fertile eggs since ovum maturation was never accomplished.

So, her "jumpy/high strung" personality may indicate a deeper issue going on here. She may have an imbalance due to hormone regulation and just as a weightlifter that may be "juicing" and has elevate testosterone is jumpy and ANGRY. (I have met a few with this problem, they admitted to me what their deal was). Maybe, just maybe she just can not control her self and is very reactive and sensitive to environmental clues and/or temps...including their owners!

SATAN

>>Kevin, that is a very interesting take to think that the desert girls might not have the hormonal balance right to produce viable eggs.
>>
>>As I said above, I am new to this hobby, but as a biochemist you have triggered a whole bunch of ideas in my mind. Do you know of any studies measuring ball python hormone levels in females as they mature, produce follicles, ovulate, and lay their eggs? Comparing desert females hormone levels to normal levels at various stages would be very interesting...
>>
>>Perhaps a little estrogen or oxytocin supplement at the right time would unlock the whole project!
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.