Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm sure this is a familiar story. Two of my baby thayeri, hatched last July 22, died within two days of each other last week. Diagnosis -- five months of anorexia. Though they were kept warm and always had clean water and a hide, they simply were not interested in eating. Being an experienced reptile keeper/breeder, I tried EVERY trick in the book short of force feeding. In contrast, seven of their clutchmates kept under identical conditions are alive and doing well, averaging two f/t pinkies consumed per week. Alas, the non-eaters had some of the nicest colors and patterns in the clutch (doesn't it seem like that's often the case?).

Question -- does seven pinky eaters out of nine seem like a typical ratio for thayeri hatchlings? Just curious.

In any case, RIP little snakes . . . here's a picture of one of them as a new hatchling after her first shed.

I would have cooled them.

cooling kings or other snakes is not a big deal to me. I know that this causes them to eat in spring and they actually surpass in growth over other kings.

Had this happen with every adisto island king. They are snake eaters, but cooling them sends them on their way to huge growth after the winter cooling.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Sorry, I meant to type edisto island king!
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www.Bluerosy.com

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That's why I don't bring my snakes out of brumation until March and breed later. Snakes hatch in August/September.....and any non-feeders get brumated with good body weight.

Along time ago I used to bring my snakes up from brumation on Valentines's Day and I would end up with babies before July 4th and if some didn't feed......well it was a long time before brumation................

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

I agree. I brought my pyros out very early last year and got July babies that did eat, but I'd have preferred a shorter wait until brumation. The six baby pyros and the 14 adult and sub adults will now brumate to March at least. I am glad I brumated my baby pyros. They all look really good when I check on them for water, etc. It's been getting warm lately but still cold enough at night to maintain the brumation temp range. Besides, February and March can get pretty cold and wet again. Cool temps are the snakes' friend over winter.

I do plan to wake up my pituophis a bit earlier, weather permitting, but then they are always more ready to eat. I never brumated my baby bulls; they are feeding and eating all winter.

I am sorry tgcorley's babies died. Very sad. I feel incredibly fortunate that mine are thriving, seeing as how I am still quite the newbie with snake keeping.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

GREAT point Kerby.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

7 out of 9 pinky eaters is a great ratio.....IMHO......

And as others mentioned a brumation could've helped those two especially if they were hatched later in the Summer and closer to Fall......

Plus....
They are all "feeders" if you feed them what they want.
I seem to have good luck feeding lizards first to stubborn feeders then scenting with their lizard of choice.

Mouse tails is another option but it can be a long and tedious process and there is no guarantee that they will switch to rodents.....and assist feeding is stressfull.....

Sorry you lost those two Tom.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, that is too bad. That was one gorgeous bright orange thayeri you posted.

I would have also brumated those two when they still had some half-decent body weight. It doesn't necessarily have to be for several months either like it would be in naturem but just enough duration to trigger a change in their behavior. This can be achieved by artificial means with A/C units or wine coolers if needed when natural prolonged colder conditions are not available where you live. If the snakes absolutely WILL NOT feed no matter what is done, keeping them in a warmer environment only keeps their metabolism raised and uses up their precious body reserves that would have otherwise been slowed and conserved if they were cooled.

Many montaine and/or more northern forms of snakes such as the mexicana complex, zonata, ruthveni, certain northern getula, and many other types of snakes are very noted for having a natural predisposition for not feeding until after they are brumated. Then when they are warmed up in the spring go onto feed readily. This is probably a natural "safeguard" for making sure they are not caught by surprise with major cold snaps coming through early in the season just prior to them feeding that would cause the prey to rot in their gut and jeopardize their health and well-being.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sorry to hear about the passing of the snakes.
Is 55 to 65 good brumation temps? What is the lowest and the highest you would go for brumation?

DAVY

"Is 55 to 65 good brumation temps? What is the lowest and the highest you would go for brumation?"

For some higher elevation forms such as zonata, a temp of around 45-50 degrees seems to work pretty well for many of them, while some other types of snakes could certainly do just fine with it being toward 60 degrees. It really all depends on the specific type of snake and what their natural environment might be where they naturally range.

The actual length of brumation and temps for any given type or bloodline can vary of course, and it can greatly depend on the weather conditions where they are being kept in the country too. What works well for someone in Washington state or Montana might be very different from someone keeping them in South Carolina or Florida. It can sometimes take some experimentation and tweeking to find the best results.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yep---brumating probably would have worked. I too am very experienced with montane and northern (east coast) babies and cooling them seems to be the best method if they do not eat. I just pulled nine baby LTT from the cool room two weeks ago. I had put them down for six weeks and after a week of warming five of them have already taken scented pinks. These snakes would not touch anything prior to cooling, no matter what trick was tried.

Joe

Joe, ....yes, those Eastern triangulum you are working with are just another great example of what is being mentioned here, and what brumating can do for their good feeding responses when they come out of a brumation period. Even when shorter than usual periods are used. Excellent advice and outcome as your babies have certainly proven here..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Years ago I was breeding L.z. parvirura and had this problem with a few babies. The only thing for me do to, to keep them alive was to force feed them with baby food. Next year I did wait to bring them out of burmation later, this did solve the problem of no eating babies. I think the simulation of their living conditions gives the babies a chance to use what they have stored as food, plus under man made brumation, tricks their bodies into the eating mode after.

Your loss ratio is not bad at all. As painful as it is, think of it as a learning tool for next time.

Scott

Meant parvirubra

Scott

Funny you should mention it. I just stepped out of my snake room, and got one of my last 2 holdouts to eat by tease feeding it. The other with a cool aberrant pattern, still refuses. I may pinky pump him tomorrow, in an effort to keep him alive.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I really don't like to force feed, that's a last resort. First I try all the usual stuff, scenting, lizard tails, parts of mice tails, body parts of small lizards and pinkies, braining pinks. If all that fails, I'll do what I have to in order to keep the snake/snakes alive till they start eating on their own. Good luck with your snakes and keep us up to date on how the feeding goes.

Scott

>>Funny you should mention it. I just stepped out of my snake room, and got one of my last 2 holdouts to eat by tease feeding it. The other with a cool aberrant pattern, still refuses. I may pinky pump him tomorrow, in an effort to keep him alive.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra
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>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yeah I use it as a last resort also. Tease feeding seems to work for me quite often with the hold outs, even when scenting didn't work, but I have seen some babies that were started with the pinky pump end up switching over and surpassing their litter mates which did eat. I think the use of it has gotten a very bad stigma, and it can be a great tool if used properly, and as a last resort.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Oh yeah, I have nothing against pinkie pumps, have used them too. Also have used syringes with a small rubber hose for feeding small babies like amaura with baby food. Tease feeding works good too. I find it pretty funny how inaccurate some baby snakes are at hitting the food target. Whatever keeps them alive till they start feeding on their own.

Scott

>>Yeah I use it as a last resort also. Tease feeding seems to work for me quite often with the hold outs, even when scenting didn't work, but I have seen some babies that were started with the pinky pump end up switching over and surpassing their litter mates which did eat. I think the use of it has gotten a very bad stigma, and it can be a great tool if used properly, and as a last resort.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra
>>
>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

"Whatever keeps them alive till they start feeding on their own"

Exactly,.....that is really the bottom line Scott, and what I have always said too. After all, a dead snake doesn't do anyone any good. And it certainly doesn't "help" a snake if it's dead and gone..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks to all who responded, I appreciate the advice and even more the spirit in which it is given. I "woke up" my breeders last year on February 18th, this year I'll try waiting until the spring equinox. Best wishes to all for a great 2012!

Thank you for initiating this thread. When to wake up our snakes and why is an important topic. March 20 (First Day of Spring: Vernal Equinox) works for me, too!

Unless it looks like this:

March 22, 2009. My front yard. LOL!

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I agree. Great thread and no bad mouthing or bickering. Gotta love it. I have used, and still use, a syringe with small IV tubing on it for feeding the last holdouts. I use either baby food or egg yolk. Egg yolk has proven to get them growing faster then anything I have tried, which make sense if you think about it. Good luck to all this year and hopefully we can have many more topics with civil outcomes.

Joe

Isn't nice with no fighting? I like the egg yolk idea, I will not forget that.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!