Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hope everyone is having a good new year. I've been lying low on the forums for a while because, to put it simply, it's not much of a fun place anymore.

My wife and I threw a Christmas party this year and for the first time in a while several of my herp friends were all together in the same room. A lot of them have moved onto breeding ball pythons. Personally I don't see the allure but I can tell you that as a community ball python breeders have a single purpose; to create beautiful snakes that they and others can enjoy. That night there was no back biting, no questioning of stocks or worry about purity just an enthusiasm for the hobby. It was, in a word, refreshing.

This got me thinking about the market and how we as colubrid breeders have been complaining that it's depressed. We tend to think of this reality in terms of market saturation and over supply or that "those damn ball pythons are just sucking up all the money" but is that really it, or is there something else at play?

Try this little mental exercise. Imagin for an instant you're newly into snakes and want to start keeping a few. Or you just got your first place and finally can keep some. You go to a show and talk to a colubrid guy who starts off on how pure his stock is and how you have to be really careful because there is so much misrepresentation out there and you might end up with something that isn't what you think. You hear this again and again. You go on the forums and hear the same negativity. Then you go to a ball python breeder's table and see, hear and feel enthusiasm for what they are doing. Jeez even if they aren't selling much they love what they're doing. You go to the BP forums and experience the same generally positive atmosphere.

Now I ask you, which community would YOU be drawn to? Would you really go to the one fraught with negativity? I've kind or riled against the fracturing of the colubrid community for some time so maybe I'm biased but I think the public infighting has damaged the market by scaring people away. Given there is an alternative, I think the damage might be severe and possibly even the root cause of the general collapse. I know that the SOLE reason I've never gotten into grey bands is because I don't want to pay a premium for locality stock only to have to face the prospect that some self appointed expert is going to attack me any breeder associated with my stock has the temerity to produce a phenotypic outlier. If it happened to Ric Blair it can happen to anyone.

Anyway just some food for thought the next time you feel like griping about how bad things are or about how buying colubrids is the wild wild west.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

First of all, it seems lately all the ball guys have been complaining that they are over moderated and don't get to fight enough. It does seem like it hasn't seen much action in awhile. There has always been fighting in every part. Go over there and ask if it worth buying desert females to breed. I don't think ball pythons killed anything. They are one species that you don't have to hybridize. There are a billion genes floating in them that you can combine and make some crazy animals with. Colubrids are different, the amount of inheritable genes in any given species doesn't even come close to balls. The colubrids market is made up of hundreds of different kinds of snakes. I think a lot of people that get into snakes and start with ball pythons just haven't taken the time to learn about all the different other snakes there are. You don't buy a $5000 dollar ball python for a pet, you buy it to breed and make "money". So, the way I see it is that less people are keeping snakes as pets. People are drawn more to the business part rather than the interesting animals themselves. There is plenty of people that work with colubrids that don't have any trouble selling their offspring. There is people that make hybrids and people that like snakes the way they are supposed to be. That will not change and neither will the fighting about them. I think it's good to see the arguing over them so people that are interested in learning about them can see both sides.
The question was which Community would you be drawn too? I think that depends on your intentions not on wether I think hybrids are stupid. There is negativity in everything in life. Keep what you like and don't worry about what people think about you.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"People are drawn more to the business part rather than the interesting animals themselves. There is plenty of people that work with colubrids that don't have any trouble selling their offspring"

Well stated Gerard!..

ps....what a NOBLE portrait pose on that incredible looking king of ALL ophiophages!..

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

King Cobra---baddest arse snake in the whole world. Always will be!! There is an opinion for ya! LOL. I am in complete awe of them.

Joe

I agree, this is one of Toms monsters we were medicating.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Awesome!......

How big?...11-12 feet or so there?

What were you guys medicating it for, and what were you giving it?. And did it do better afterwards?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That guy was over 12' and we gave him some panacure. It was a preventative yearly procedure all the animals got. Tom has some killer Kings.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tom certainly does have some "KILLER" stuff alright, and in every sense of the word..LOL!

Man, I would have beefed up the corners on that cheesy little 1/2" plywood box in case it got dropped or something knowing that behemoth was inside it..LOL!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's was just it's hide box, this is one of my little girls.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

....and I thought I was a bad-a$$ for having the best fireworks on the block when I was a kid....sheesh! That "little girl" probably has more "intelligence" than all of our colubrids piled together. That's some serious fire man, don't know how you do it but God bless ya.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Not sure where you live Gerard, but maybe someday I can come check those out. I have always wanted to see one of the true kings of the world. I don't think I would ever own one with the kid and wife, but would love to work with one sometime. Be careful bro, I don't want to see you on an episode of ER with doctor Bush. I am jealous you get to work them, I will tell you that much! Such amazing creatures and they actually seem smart.

Joe

Oh, and I know I said it already, but in my eyes no other snake even comes close to a king cobra. Just awesome.

Joe

They are amazing! I have moved all my venomous to a friends ever since my daughter was born. I don't think they should be around children either. Once my kids get older and can understand what is going on I will move them back. If you ever get down this way I will take you to see some.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

We see eye to eye on that issue huh.(no young kids around the hots) Gerard, where are you located?

I'm in Deltona, fl. now. My stuff is in Miami. I go hunting down there all the time. Let me know if your coming that way. Check this out, my dad just got back from Cuba wahoo fishing. They did alright............

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yeah, I don't think I would call that a "skunk run"..HAHA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Are you kidding me? Holy cow. I have been on boats when they were caught but never caught one myself. Those things are like torpedos!! I am a huge bowhunting fanatic and used to compete in archery. Love to let the air out of a big fat hog down there sometime!! I used to do lots of fishing but now get seasick just looking at the ocean. Only freshwater stuff for me now. I am a big p---y now I guess!!! LOL.

Joe

My dad lives the good life. He caught a 500 lb thresher shark too. He said they had some bad ass underwater cameras so once I get the pics I will post them. I'm going to be eating good for a couple weeks!
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That it is, one beautiful King of Kings!

The ultimate theft deterrant!

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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Too funny Scott!,......and TRUE!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

First time in a long time I've check in on this forum and I must say THANK YOU TONY! Very valid point. Certainly we can't all get along as conflict is "human nature," but some here are growing and it's refreshing to see them show a level of respect even in the face of projects/morphs/snakes that are "not there thing"

I don't think the colubrid market is dead just yet... "we're" just in a dormant period and in need of some refinement. I love what I do, I love creating new morphs or even cleaning up a line/project through selective breeding. Indeed it is difficult to let go of "good work" for next to nothing ($$$) but I'm learning to share rather than covet them all. (limited space helped in that decision making too )

Good to see order and logic returning to the KS forum

~ZF

I can understand why you would feel that way, but I really think there is a bigger picture involved. This forum may have some impact on the herp community but I'm sure it's not an overwhelming percentage. Ball Pythons are all Ball Pythons, or at least 99% are. So there's none of the danger of getting something you didn't pay for. I think the appeal to BP's is the fact that many beginners are attracted to BP's because they are very easy to handle, and they are great looking, and the ideah of new possible combinations is also appealing. Add to that the buzz about how much money some people are making, and it is the perfect storm. I do think it will saturate like any other market, and I'm not saying that with any malice. It's just what markets do. The pendulum swings back and fourth. I've been hearing rumors of large breeders stock piling hundreds of females which are soon to be in production mode. What will that do to the market? I still say the main problem with our hobby today is the economy! Most people don't have extra money for anything but bills and are very nervous about where we go from here. Only a few sick people like myself, are going to spend a few hundered dollars on some slithering snakes, lol. If the economy turns around, then there should be a vaccume caused by the people who have left the colubrid world. Many have sold their collections and went the way of the Ball Python craze. Tony I try to keep a good attitude and try to help newbies as much as I can, cause they are the future of our hobby. Some use this forum as their platform to promote themselves at any cost, and that is a huge distraction, but I hope to be here for a while, and hopefully watch the hobby make at least a substantial comback.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

"Only a few sick people like myself, are going to spend a few hundered dollars on some slithering snakes"

I guess that would also include me for the recent deposit I just threw down on an incredibly RARE colubrid project ..LOL!

Anyway, whatever this hobby does in the future with all of it's ups and downs and twists and turns as it has always been known for over the years, I will simply keep plugging along working with the colubrids that I myself very much enjoy. As long as there is a small portion of (niche group) people in this country that are ALSO interested in what I work with, that is all that really matters to me. I don't necessarily care (and never really have) what everyone else is doing, because what "everyone else" is doing generally doesn't interest me anyway. I am not out to appeal to the great masses of this hobby, just as long as there is a small percentage of people out there that share some of the same interests and values that I do (and some certainly do). That is what I truly enjoy, and will ALWAYS enjoy about this hobby no matter what...

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

As a "new guy" to the forums I'll say that to me the BP community and the Lampropeltis community seems to be apples and oranges. I don't follow the BP forums but I do know how I feel about this community. I don't breed or sell snakes so I don't know about the sellers market but I try do my part as a buyer as money permits LOL.
It seems that this community develops into very specialized and often quirky groups that are most definitely passionate about the animals they keep. There seem to be a lot of field herpers, naturalists, and photographers. The conversation often deals with field herping, local finds, personal field observations, natural histories....etc. I really enjoy that part of this community. It would seem that a person who was drawn to that part of the hobby would be more drawn to the Lampropeltis or colubrid community.
I noticed that when bad threads appear on the BOI it often involves BPs and sellers who misrepresent and flip animals without regard for the animals or the buyers. This may be due to the fact that there are a lot of BP transactions taking place but I bet it has more to do with the fact that it's easier to make a buck flipping BPs that locale milks. LOL
On a side note: The first thing that came to mind with this was cornsnakes. They are available in a million and one morphs are easy to care for and seem to have a big following. So it would seem that if a person was looking at kings or milks and was turned off by talk of locale or such the next step in my mind would be to look at corns. What has happened to them?

The Corn snake market got flooded by all the hets that were being produced in order to get a target animal. I still have a lot of corns but I don't jump on all the new morphs which can sometimes look very similar. I have a few morphs that I have always admired and because of the prices coming down, I can afford to buy some of them. Also it seems that everyone who bought a corn snake wanted to breed them and it grew faster than the market could absorb. I think things will level off eventually as people realize they're not gonna breed 2 snow Corns and sell all the babies for a profit. There has been some new morphs which has sparked some new life in that market, so we will see what happens. I still say the economy is the biggest abstruction to a healthy market right now. This is another reason why BP's look enticing to those looking to make some money. You brought up some really good points, I liked what you said.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I love corns....

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I participate in the king snake forum because I have king snakes. I also hang out in the gopher, pine and bull forum because I have bulls and gophers. If I had ball pythons I'd be at that forum. People seem to be the same even though the animals they keep are different. Some people like to teach, some like to fight, some like to share their hobby with photos and such.. I am not much of a people person myself, so my take on human nature may be a little off. But I like all the people I have met both on the Internet and in real life who share an enthusiasm for keeping reptiles. It gives me something to talk with them about. I am not big on politics and can only say so much about the weather...LOL!

People will buy snakes when they have money again. As has been mentioned, some of us have gone and spent money on a snake they just had to have. But most people are scared of the floundering economy and are holding onto what little cash they have left.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I think North American Colubrid keepers are what made this hobby what it is.......We are still TRUE Herpetoculturists not some fly-by-night pipe dreamer.......

We are snake keepers before breeders.....BP guys are just breeders that are in it for the money......

And we are more passionate about what we do because we know what we are talking about. Most BP keepers know nothing about their natural history or habitat but they sure as heck can tell you how to make a yellow belly soul sucker pied pastel.......

I like to think I've grown up from the fascination of owning a "cool" boa or python as they were my first snakes decades ago......lol

I also like to think that folks like us that specialize in something will endure.....Newbies jumping on the BP band wagon will be gone in a couple years......

Those experienced BP keepers or those experienced snake keepers that became BP keepers will make it.....Don Soderberg told me years ago..."you will never get rich off of something someone else already did.....never."
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well said my friend.
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Very good post John and very true.

Scott

>>I think North American Colubrid keepers are what made this hobby what it is.......We are still TRUE Herpetoculturists not some fly-by-night pipe dreamer.......
>>
>>We are snake keepers before breeders.....BP guys are just breeders that are in it for the money......
>>
>>And we are more passionate about what we do because we know what we are talking about. Most BP keepers know nothing about their natural history or habitat but they sure as heck can tell you how to make a yellow belly soul sucker pied pastel.......
>>
>>I like to think I've grown up from the fascination of owning a "cool" boa or python as they were my first snakes decades ago......lol
>>
>>I also like to think that folks like us that specialize in something will endure.....Newbies jumping on the BP band wagon will be gone in a couple years......
>>
>>Those experienced BP keepers or those experienced snake keepers that became BP keepers will make it.....Don Soderberg told me years ago..."you will never get rich off of something someone else already did.....never."
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>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

"Most BP keepers know nothing about their natural history or habitat but they sure as heck can tell you how to make a yellow belly soul sucker pied pastel......."

LOL!!......John, that is EXACTLY word for word what I said to a few people just TODAY as a matter of fact. I am quite sure of that as well. The only thing that is important is what morph(s) produce which multi-morph combinations.

Our aspect of the hobby goes WAAAY beyond just that nonsense.

How many hobbyists in this country have plotting different milksnake subspecies coordinance of many preserved/tagged museum specimens from ~Systematics (K. Williams 1978) where they were actually captured in Central America on google earth to compare with known range maps and meristics data to get an even better better handle of which phenotypes originate from precisely what areas and elevations?...........I am thinking probably just one!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very good post Tony!! As always, you always bring up some food for thought that is quite extensive in the aspects of healthy thinking.

For myself, I have seen the exact opposite when comparing either the colubrid crowd vs. the ball python crowd. I have seen WAY more negativity in the ball python scene. Big time. Check out some of the other forums. Very negative and petty whining about “ market value, price, blah, blah, blah “, some forums reporting who has lower prices and labeling them “ market crashers “, creating a divisive attitude, the fight some BP breeders got into after a past Daytona, and so forth.

Thing is, any scene will have the negative ones. Colubrids, BPs, any scene/market. The thing, IMO, to always remember, is that it is a blessing to own these animals, and to always be happy we have the freedom to do so.

You will always have adult-children on forums causing trouble, etc. You will always have some people who are struggling with greed, and only view these precious animals as a way to make money. As far as what community I would be attracted to, my answer is I put my attraction towards my favorite snakes first and foremost. Heck, even that one factor being the only reason for me. I literally could care less what anyone else does in the colubrid scene, in regards to whether or not I would buy colubrids, but that is just me. Tony, if you like graybands, get whatever you want, and do not give a flip about what any insecure, self appointed expert thinks about anything you do. Give it not one moment of thought. No need to. The positive social and community aspect of the colubrid scene is just an added bonus.

You then have those who truly LOVE everything about the animals. I have, in my experience, seen that type of positive attitude way more in the colubrid scene with people I am close with who breed, forums, etc. Every breeder in my circle of friends truly loves the animals as a whole. I know some guys who breed a very big amount of colubrids, and they are passionate for what they do, and give their customers great service with a great attitude. For myself or anyone to label the BP scene as a greedy market is a horrible and brash generalization. I know that there are BP breeders out that must and do love the animals and all aspects pertaining. To me, that is what it is truly about. However, from again, what I have personally seen over the years in the BP area, I have seen way more negativity and an unhealthy love of money, which I also equate with negativity. But...the BP breeders who are just like the colubrid breeders I mentioned, what they do is just as important as well.

IMO, all markets are hurting, both colubrid and BP, due to saturation. I have seen 13 pages in a single day on the BP classifieds before. I have seen the same colubrids, for months and months, on classifieds. Breeders I know are not doing what they used to. Pet stores are going out of business and/or not buying animals as much as they used to. Reason being, the pet industry itself is not one that brings forth a steady income, a great portion of the time. I am now seeing complete saturation like I have never seen since I started back up into the reptile scene in 1991, after a short sabbatical from it a few years before. There always has been some saturation. I would see it back in the mid-nineties. Anytime animals are just not selling for a while, that does mean that customers are not buying and/or there just isn’t enough of them out there. No blame on the ball market taking away sales from the colubrid market, IMO.
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Genesis 1:1

Yes I do think the present economy is hurting to a degree, but it's not the first time and doubt that it will be the last. Trends come and go and right now to it sems BP are the big trend. Give it time, like all trends it will pass.

The colubred people who are in this hobby for the love of their snakes and the learning we get from them are the ones who will still be standing when this trend ends and another takes it's place.

Even with a bad economy people will find a way to get what they want. I just spent $300 this week on snakes, so I guess I am in the class of a few sick people that are going to spend hundred dollars on slithering snakes.

Economy goes up and down and trends come and go. The demand for colubreds will go up and down, but they and we will always be there. Big difference as I see it is love, interest and learning in your snakes or just out for a fast buck!

Scott

Very much agreed my friend! Perfect post!
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah, I agree, it was a good post, and so was yours.

"Market Crashers" indeed!!..HAHA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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Genesis 1:1

Billy, if you would just make some Northerns I would buy some. Come on man.......please!!!!!
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are too funny!
Email me.
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Genesis 1:1

np
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www.Bluerosy.com

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You should go to the BP forum. You just missed a big fight with plenty of deleted posts. It's not the kind of snake, it's the kind of people. Take those people out and there is no fighting. Just like it has been here lately.

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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

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www.Bluerosy.com

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Funny how easy it is......
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Gerard

"I am the one the hides the universal secret of all time"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony, I have been hunting, collecting, breeding, buying and selling graybands since 1996. My impression of the grayband market is that graybands have been easier to sell and selling for higher prices during the last 3 years than the previous 13.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I should add that you are not entirely wrong, IMHO. I think there is alot of truth to what you are saying about newbies and others being intimidated and put off by aggressive, know-it-all, opinionated, agrumentive, etc. attitudes and behavior.

The problem in my mind then becomes how do you break the news, so to speak, to a person who has posted a picture of a species, subspecies and/or locality specimen that is obviously not what they think it is. IMHO it is just as bad, if not worse, to let them go on thinking they have something they don't, than it is to question them or just come out and say that their animal(s) aren't what they were sold or represented as.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

A very good point!
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Gerard

"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!