Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All I know is you have huge breeder's telling you that you are making a mistake by editing post! All week because it's been slow and borring on here lately people are sick of the edit's I will no longer going to be posting here! I have had enough good luck kingsnake

Eric Daley

The desert thread that had most of the posts removed yesterday didn't seem to be over the line to me. I think the worst that was said is the desert breeders knew females had issues and still sold them. I don't think that info should have been removed. I don't believe it was that negative or could result in any type of slander lawsuit or whatever the forums are trying to avoid.

On the other hand, I used to read a forum sponsored by a big breeder. Without ANY moderators it turned in to a bunch of guys acting like they were in middle school. "You're a moron", "No, you're any idiot", "Your mama is the idiot" etc, etc. It would take scrolling through pages of nonsense to find a bit of info. I haven't looked at that forum in years, I don't know if it is even still there.

Bottom line, I guess KS is trying to keep anyone from getting their feelings hurt and to avoid a lawsuit. I have no idea what liability they face for allowing people to post negative things about others. I hope they can find a sort of middle ground where a little bit of dissent is allowed without letting it degrade in to the silly name calling .

I think that whole thing w/The Truth is nonsense! I thought PE answered all accusations adequately! The Truth just seems like a "bitterman" with an axe to grind!

I don't know that he is bitter as much as he just likes to push people's buttons and cause a stir. I don't know Neil, but that is how he was on forums before.

He does have a point about the desert issue. If this isn't the place to bring up BP issues, where should it be discussed? He wasn't particularly nasty. He feels female deserts should have a warning label, Chad thinks there is the possibility of environmental influences affecting deserts differently than other BP. The issue has been brought up before many times before with the questioner usually being chastised for even mentioning the subject. At least now we all know that there is some sort of issue. The Truth took great pleasure in pointing it out, I guess that is why he was hated so much.

I don't think Chad denies an issue! The Truth acts like PE invented the morph to screw people over! He's either bitter, an idiot or both!

Thetruth and/or Neil got some desert females and spent a fortune. Only to find out there are issuses with them. Honestly I would be a little upset myself. However, I do think he/they went about it wrong. I do agreethat PE explained it after being called out on it. I also think instead of spamming the forums like he did, Neil should have taken a chill pill and composed himself before looking like a vendictive child on a rampage.

Mike Bell's observations are well taken, and his comments well stated, as usual. I would add only this -- the constructive purpose of this debate seems to have been achieved. Any buyer who still has insufficient information to beware, well, he or she likely lacks the capacity to be forewarned. Against some less constructive purpose, KS should be reasonably expected to place greater weight on its real or perceived liability concerns.

The issue isn't the discussion, it is DB Neil/Truth/BGumms.

Chad has posted this information on KS perhaps three other times. We have posted it on many other forums as well. There are long threads up at BLBC and BPnet about it right now. We have had sensible forum discussions any number of times. Then some idiot comes in with his waffle stompers on and tries to make a mess.

I have replied to dozens of emails about Desert females, so has Chad. We have had dozens of live conversations about the Desert females. In fact, we have never avoided the discussion, about Deserts, females, breeding, etc.

We have also never sold them out the back door at a blowout price because they are "bad".

I don't think Desert females are normal breeding Ball pythons. They will never be "normal" and "normally productive". But they do breed, it has already been done, and will be done again. They are also not undersized, skinny, "like kingsnakes", or any other nonsense that Neil has put up even though he knows we have posted pics, scale pics, 2000 gram female pics, etc.

The discussion isn't the issue. And we will have it again. The nonsense that Neil brings to the table, questioning our integrity and making all sorts of nefarious implications, that is wrong, and childish. He replied to his own post something like 17 times in a row last night without interruption by any other poster (before it was all pulled). That's just dumb.

And a month from now, he will be back with a new name "TheRealNeil" or some such nonsense, and he will start it all over- "How come these guys never answer these questions and why are they ripping people off?". Then some new guy will fall for the okey doke and say "Yeah! That is a good point! How come you have never answered these questions?!?"

Ugh.

Chad's post on Deserts is below. If anyone wants to discuss them, it is still there, and you can post. The bs that got pulled was someone else's ego stroking grab for attention, with no actual value.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

With complete respect, Robyn, not to mention the deep sympathy I feel for PE's devastating loss, the subject of this particular post was precisely "the discussion" and the editorial response by the moderators to a prior post, which is the one you are now reacting to. A lot of people on this forum want to blame the prevailing level of discussion here on censorship, which may or may not be accurate, but is interesting in and of itself. To me anyway...Dave

Thanks for the support Dave, it is appreciated. 2011 ended in surreal fashion. I have big hopes for 2012, all in the world of reptiles.

I have seen the censorship discussion here recently. But there is a difference between actual discussion and personal nonsense.

There is still plenty of opportunity to discuss the Deserts. Folks could respond to Chad's post, or start a new post. But I am not opposed to pulling nonsense, whatever the topic is. A forum is valuable to me, but I can find a different playground, I don't need one here.

I don't think KS is interested in that kind of content. That is their prerogative. With so many viable forums now, I think each one needs to appeal to their desired crowd, which they do.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

What are good morphs for beginners to work with after breeding normals many times? I get the picture with deserts, caramels, and that spider head bob, sometimes. thanks, mike

With budget considerations I would suggest Albinos and Pieds. Those are always popular and move well. If you want something a bit pricier, go for Clowns, there are never enough of those, demand is always high.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Who cares????

What's the problem with that? Otherwise they are perfect....

Don't compare them to Caramels....as having as big of an issue!

Spider head wobble...pretty funny how a person would not want a snake that is perfect except it has a motor skill issue...

I think we are acting a bit extreme about what we are expecting from our snakes...

SATAN

>>What are good morphs for beginners to work with after breeding normals many times? I get the picture with deserts, caramels, and that spider head bob, sometimes. thanks, mike
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

spider...first wobbling one found should have been killed...
my opinion....who cares...too late

caramels...we need to figure out why they kink....probably just because 2 negative genes makes a screwup sometimes...(simple talk)...

pieds suck at eating....yes some do...

black pastels make kinked crap when inbred...yes they can...and go off feed also...just like all balls...

deserts...we need info...takes years,....so...he who owns them needs to keep temp records and all breeding records...even if they won't share info afterwards anyways....

...I need a new hobby....man....
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.
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........JY

would NEVER been any Spider Mutations!!!

A bit severe..... you hate spiders...but that is severe.

SAATAN

>>spider...first wobbling one found should have been killed...
>>my opinion....who cares...too late
>>
>>caramels...we need to figure out why they kink....probably just because 2 negative genes makes a screwup sometimes...(simple talk)...
>>
>>pieds suck at eating....yes some do...
>>
>>black pastels make kinked crap when inbred...yes they can...and go off feed also...just like all balls...
>>
>>deserts...we need info...takes years,....so...he who owns them needs to keep temp records and all breeding records...even if they won't share info afterwards anyways....
>>
>>...I need a new hobby....man....
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>-----
>>........JY
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

and it would be good...think of all the stuff with pinstripe and not spider....better snakes...right Kevin...?...but I know...you wanted cool stuff and money and you had it..so...it had to be bred...and it bred like a big dog...

I don't hate spiders...I hate the retard factor...

I sold out so it's cool...no more spiders...!....(I paid 3G and sold it for $200 so I had some spider stuff...alot...)

anyways....you scroll down too far...you must be as bored as I am...

you no longer play in the bands?...just asking....don't bother responding...post some pics instead....noone posted a good pic in weeeeks....think Yellow or purple....!!!

good luck..and more Pinstripeds....!!!

...have fun...
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........JY

I'm sure the spider wobble really scared a few breeders who bought them before they knew what it was. A friend bought one the year they were about 15K, when it started the wobble he thought it was IBD or something else terrible and his whole collection was going to croak. As it turned out the wobble isn't a big deal most of the time. Of all the spiders I have only one male bee has it to the point that it is even noticeable if you aren't looking for it.

Could not agree more. I personally have not seen any "wobble" in any of the spiders I've had or produced. At most I see a slight shiver of the head during feeding just before they strike...but I have also seen other non-spiders do the same. In my opinion they are one of the strongest morphs out there when it comes to feeding, growth, and breeding. They are not my favorite morph by any means but they definitely have my respect as being one of the most prolific.
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Brandon Osborne Reptiles

>>With complete respect, Robyn, not to mention the deep sympathy I feel for PE's devastating loss, the subject of this particular post was precisely "the discussion" and the editorial response by the moderators to a prior post, which is the one you are now reacting to. A lot of people on this forum want to blame the prevailing level of discussion here on censorship, which may or may not be accurate, but is interesting in and of itself. To me anyway...Dave

It isnt accurate, because before yesterday's little clean up, there was a post pulled in november, 1 post pulled in september and 1 in august. Sorry guys, ya all cant blame kingsnake for rapid fire pulling of posts. Those three previous were all adverts.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Maybe there aren't a lot of posts pulled, but everyone knows better than to even mention anything sensitive. Walking on egg shells. so to speak.

>>Maybe there aren't a lot of posts pulled, but everyone knows better than to even mention anything sensitive. Walking on egg shells. so to speak.

Really? I still call horse pucky.

Ya know why? Because 2 years ago there was this big change in management here and a few forums here picked up on it, but a few didnt.

Mike, I can give you a hint, the person writing this post is the one that deals with forum abuse complaints as well as keeping track of all the pulled posts and enforcing the terms of service. Ya'all havent tried things in a while because it is easier to blame me.

Why not try debates with out personal attacks. It is possible and welcome and encouraged. Some of you know me, some have no clue who I am, but I promise things are different. I like a good debate. So test the water. No name calling, personal attacks or advertising.

Now go play. Do not make me post pics of say Carpballs to get you guys riled.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Robyn/Chad, I think you guys have done an outstading job of describing the situation with the desert females . . . over and over and over again. Thank you for trying to explain things to those who will listen.

I agree that there is a challenge in getting desert females to breed. Similar to the challenge with caramel kinking and producing male bananas. We just have to find the right combination to get it done; whether that is the temp at breeding, size, age, or some other factor.

Good luck in 2012!
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

My take on the issue is that KS.com should require users to disclose their real names and limit people to one account. That way, when someone brings something up, the cannot do it anonymously. They cannot also show support for their posts by posting as a different user.

If it is not worth saying with your name attached, then it is just plain not worth saying!

Mike Bell does, Chad does it, Robyn does it, Kevin kinda does because everyone knows he is SATAN, and many more do to.

That is my take - so go ahead and flame me.

I understand your point, and it may well override my need for anonymity, but on the off chance there are others similarly situated, let me explain my preference for a pseudonym. The world wide web has made virtually every electronic utterance traceable by anyone who cares to look. I have 30 years invested in a field that is so intensely conservative that many of my clients and peers would almost certainly discount me professionally if they learned of my hobby. Sad but true. My motive for anonymity is not of course courageous, but neither is it nefarious. That said, if nameless participation is or becomes objectionable to this group, I will happily return to lurking and listening, which I did for many years before speaking up...Dave

yea....

LOL

actually...even half and more of the people in here WITH the real names attatched I have no idea who they are anyways....so...

I don't know you two...

I do know BiGG GuNNs.....

I do not know if that is he....as the Truth....

...it's all opinion anyways....people will pay for what they want...and get ripped all the time...no matter what...

...as in the old school..."How many people paid $12,000 for a male spider".....

.....anyways...

....temps too....I bred balls with no heat for years....room heat...feel cold...like 79 to 88....

.....>>>
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........JY

You keep going back to SPiders and how horrible they are....

Ripped off because of a motor skill possible defect?

Are you kidding????? So, if the snake does not sit there like a perfect little ball python all of the time it is CRAP and the entire line should have been killed?

Sorry Charlie, Pinstripes do not replace SPiders by any MEANS!!!

Spider Pastel smokes a Pinstripe Pastel and so on!!!

SUper Pastel Spider or a SUper Pastel Pin? Not even CLOSE!

With your logic then I can think of a bunch of snakes that should have been culled early on because they have "sub-par" genes.

I could really expand on your logic here.....

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Don't worry about him, he is just mad because his basement keeps flooding.

wow...funny?....duh....

actually it doesn't...once that badly...and due to stupid neighbors named Mike...whom I would like to beat with a brick..and he ain't dead yet so....

....takin care of it all...all new concrete all around home...and 200 tons of dirt to level yard... 6 huge trees gone...all ready....

you got a bobcat or front end loader I can borrow?....

...no animals in celler now so....

.
.
.(neighbor named charlie actually)
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........JY

who said I was ripped?...I got one for $3000 when they were going for $5000 ...I made a great deal...(thanxx again Alan)....I made money on it...I made all kinds of spider stuff...I made a few really cool lesserbee paradoxes...killer ones....so to speak....I just said the retard factor sucks...but we lived with it now for ? 12 years?....

and give me a break...a bee vs a blast?....blast anyday...

.anyways.....it's done it's history...it's cool...

where's the pics?...
.
.
.

...crystal sable blast.....?.....potion blast enchi....?...

....super spider super pastel super lesser?....

......
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........JY

LOOKING THAN >>who said I was ripped?...I got one for $3000 when they were going for $5000 ...I made a great deal...(thanxx again Alan)....I made money on it...I made all kinds of spider stuff...I made a few really cool lesserbee paradoxes...killer ones....so to speak....I just said the retard factor sucks...but we lived with it now for ? 12 years?....
>>
>>and give me a break...a bee vs a blast?....blast anyday...
>>
>>.anyways.....it's done it's history...it's cool...
>>
>>where's the pics?...
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>
>>...crystal sable blast.....?.....potion blast enchi....?...
>>
>>....super spider super pastel super lesser?....
>>
>>......
>>-----
>>........JY
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

>>LOOKING THAN (MY POST GOT CUT OFF)..

Are you kidding a Pastel Pinstripe is better looking than a Spider Pastel???

Are you kidding?

Well, I think a general poll would say otherwise.....

Do I need to prove my point?

SANTA
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

...I still cannot believe you still come this low on the forum...you got too many people cleaning your cages brother...
I have 0 animals...so i am bored...

....no point...I got my likes...balst anything...I made ghost blast this year and ghost pin and I think they beat alot of other stuff...my thought...

...anyways...spend time..Google...

www.lancasteronline.com

tuesday jan 10 ..today ...article...birds came to see him...about Theodore A Parker III

...or lookup....Ron Dahline..ronny dees gallery....
Turkey Merck pottery....Mitchell Grafton pottery...he makes custom stuff....making me a snake jug right now with shrooms on the sides.........better than being here talking at me...

have fun....!....potion super blast.....LOL
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........JY

Dave,

I have no problems with pseudonyms and in your case, you identified yourself as Dave. The EvilMorphGod is Kevin, etc... are all good.

There could also be an number of DChristensen's in the world but there is only one here.

The truly anonymous ones and the possibility of more than a single account are the ones that I don't like. It leads to a hit and run atmosphere where someone has no fear of making libelous allegations and personal attacks because they CAN hid behind a new anonymous account name.

>>Bottom line, I guess KS is trying to keep anyone from getting their feelings hurt and to avoid a lawsuit. I have no idea what liability they face for allowing people to post negative things about others. I hope they can find a sort of middle ground where a little bit of dissent is allowed without letting it degrade in to the silly name calling .

The posters can keep it about the snakes and not the name calling. That is all that needs to be required. You want to debate the stability of a morph of snakes fine, but once you add the name calling, we are gonna have issues.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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>>All I know is you have huge breeder's telling you that you are making a mistake by editing post! All week because it's been slow and borring on here lately people are sick of the edit's I will no longer going to be posting here! I have had enough good luck kingsnake
>>
>>Eric Daley
>>

Actually Eric,

We do have a terms of service and while you may not like it, we do enforce it. When we have that level of mudslinging and name calling to breeders, it goes. There were however no posts "edited" as you claim. There were however posts removed. The moderation is fairly light, but I will not tolerate dragging people through the mud or personal attacks to prove a point. Debate may stay but personal attacks never ever will.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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I am not a big fan of it but it has its value when it gets stupid and someone is being hurt by another person publicly.

Basic name calling is not what I am saying...if things get removed just as they heat up it seems people will get frustrated and BORED.

I think that if this forum is to stay active(I'm trying).... there has to be some drama and movement.

AS far as posting regarding anything negative about Robyn/Chad.... I don't think they should have to defend themselves or anything after what happened to them and their snakes. The fact that they can even come here and participate is rather amazing. They get a big phat get out of jail card in my opinion.

They are only defending the project and have lots of insight regarding it.

Fighting can be nice but I think we should leave them out of it...

SATAN

>>All I know is you have huge breeder's telling you that you are making a mistake by editing post! All week because it's been slow and borring on here lately people are sick of the edit's I will no longer going to be posting here! I have had enough good luck kingsnake
>>
>>Eric Daley
>>
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.