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Hey this may be a stupid question, but I've never found myself in this situation before. I don't have enough frozen rats to feed my collection tonight, but I do have live. I don't want to feed live and throw my snakes off because they are all doing well on frozen thawed. I figured I could just gas what I needed then feed Pre-killed tonight. I know that I could just feed live, but that isn't what I want to do unless I have to. So my question is if I gas the rats then feed them after will the gas in their lungs have time to dissipate or is there possible harm to the snakes? Thanks in advance for all the help.

Mike
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Do you just use CO2? If so, there should be no harm to the snakes. Snakes need a LOT of CO2 before it starts to cause them problems. If you are even a bit concerned, give your gassed rats a bit of a squeeze and they will exhale some of the gas in their lungs. Otherwise, no worries.
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25 year old 0.1 from Lincoln, NE
Ball Pythons - 0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly, 2.1 Normals
Kingsnakes - 1.0 L. m. thayeri, 0.1 L. m. thayeri X L. alterna, 1.0 L. g. californiae
Other - 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 1.0 H. nascicus, ?.? Chrysemys picta, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Co2 isn't a poison, it just displaces the air and there is no oxygen for the rats to breathe. Co2 is what makes the soda and beer flow to the taps.

Actually CO2 bonds to the red blood cells 200 times faster than oxygen. And releases slower. More than just getting rid of the oxygen in the room. It can cause affixation even after leaving to a vented area. It causes affixation basically from within because when the CO2 bonds to the red blood cells there isn't room for an oxygen cells to reverse the process.
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So, I have a question for U. I have only gassed my rats once. It was really hard for me to watch. I felt really bad for them as they struggled to breath. People have said that this is the most humane way to euthanize rats. However, I find it easier to deal with emotionally with blunt force trauma to the head. Instantaneous! No suffocation, and no fear of what is happening to them. Don't get me wrong, I HATE doing it AT ALL!!! But what are your...and anyone elses thoughts on this subject??

If you precharge the CO2 chamber by getting the atmosphere completely exchanged for CO2 it goes a lot quicker with less gasping.

Otherwise, cervical ligation is the quickest. Grab the rat by the tail (with a good grip then place the metal part of a screwdriver across the neck (gripping the screwdriver tightly) and press it into a solid surface. Pull on the tail with a good tug and you will dislocate the neck. This is much easier than head trauma and less bloody.

All of these issues and methods are covered by the American Vet. Med Association (AVMA) guidelines at: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

-DC

CO2...they know they cannot breathe...yes it's fast...but they still know....

BFT...fast and they don't know what hit 'em...literally...

do not make them bleed...

I let the snakes take care of it all...?....they still know what's going on....

...think...what would YOU want done to you?...

...I never bought CO2 tanks...20 years...hundreds a week...

....
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........JY

This is exactly how I feel about it. There is room for everyone's opinion. None are wrong and none are perfect. Bottom line is we care for animals that eat other animals. My personal issue with it is this. I have to breed and raise animals for the purpose of killing them. The part that gets me through it is that I know that if it wasn't me someone else would be doing it and I would need to get them from someone else who is doing it. So may as well take it in to my own hands.

Now as for your method. I'm not saying its wrong. I'm saying it's not perfect. Sure it sounds great. Wack em in the head and it's instantaneous. But is it really? What if they don't die instantly. And how exactly do you know that it's instantaneous? If its really that great I don't know why we wouldn't use it as an entertaining form of Capitol punishment.

My way isn't perfect either. As you said the gasping. Which btw in my experience has never been longer than a minute or two tops. And for the most part they just seem to go to sleep. Keep in mind I gas with compressed CO2. I don't use the dry ice and water method.

Just putting them in the freezer doesn't seem too bad either, but I will admit the frozen rats always look somewhat freightened when you pull them out of the freezer and I've heard that they have a heart attack before they actually die, but who really knows.

Of course you could go the natural method, but let's be honest getting wrapped up by a python 10 times your size and squeezed to death doesn't sound like a good time either. Actually sounds the worst to me.

So let's get to the skinny of it. Snakes it mice bottom line. I gas and freeze because it's the most humane and convenient way for me to breed, raise, kill, store pre-killed, and feed the rats. I think the topic of the best way to kill freeze and feed is a train wreck of and argument just looking for a place to happen. I do it my way and I suggest that everyone else do the same. There are pros and cons to all method.
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>>Just putting them in the freezer doesn't seem too bad either, but I will admit the frozen rats always look somewhat freightened when you pull them out of the freezer and I've heard that they have a heart attack before they actually die, but who really knows.
>>

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Putting live rats in the freezer is probably the most inhumane way I have ever heard of.
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John Vandegrift

Like I said train wreck of an argument waiting for a place to happen.
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I put wheels and corn in the CO2 chamber for my rodents. The CO2 slowly leaks in through the top vent first, so they stop running on the wheel, snuggle up in a corner, or just sit and eat their corn. When everyone is happy and subdued, I add a much stronger flow of CO2 through a vent near the floor of the chamber. Eventually everyone goes glassy-eyed. There is the occasional rodent who is doing better than everyone else, but usually there is none of the panic or jumping about I have seen in other fast-dose-only chambers.

I have no ethical or moral quandry with it. The rodents I like the most tend to live to a ripe old age before being "put down". All them live decent lives in large cages with treats, toys, and good company. It isn't any different to me than having a dog or a cat that eventually needs to be put down due to age or infirmity.

There's my 2 cents.
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25 year old 0.1 from Lincoln, NE
Ball Pythons - 0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly, 2.1 Normals
Kingsnakes - 1.0 L. m. thayeri, 0.1 L. m. thayeri X L. alterna, 1.0 L. g. californiae
Other - 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 1.0 H. nascicus, ?.? Chrysemys picta, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Ok so this is my opinion, and that only.

I do not care for CO2 chambers, i have used them in the past when killing off literally hundreds of rats at a time, but like others have said if i had to choose how to end it for my personal self i would choose blunt trama. If you know what your doing and get it right it "in my opinion" is the quickest and least painful way to go. My father is a surgeon and ive had conversations similar to this thread with him. After talking with him in the past we have both sided with snapping the spinal cord, as long as you know what you are doing it literaly only takes seconds vs the minutes that a CO2 chamber can take. It does take a much longer time to individually whack each animal vs using a chamber to cull many at one time.

As far as the freezer route goes, i would never throw a live rat into a freezer for many reasons. First being that they can survive in temps lower then 32 degrees. I have actually heard stories and personally know people that tried before and opened the freezer days later and there was a lathargic half frozen live rat trying to chew its way out. I dont think being locked in a cold dark box is very humane, but it is only my opinion as well. I know what it feels like to sit outside in the snow for more then 20 mins and ive seen documentaries about the effects of frostbit and how your body literally starts shuting down and it just doesnt seem like a good time to me.

Anyways i use the whack method, a good hard 90 degree angle with the knowledge of what your doing has always been efficient and quick for my animals. After you whack them you can always by hand seperate their spinal cord to make sure that they are actually dead. As soon as the spinal cord is snapped, there is no feeling, the twitching is just the remainder of nerves but does not mean the animal is still alive (if the spinal cord is snapped)

Ok im done..lol.. sorry for the super long post. As others have said it comes down to a personal opinion and what the breeder feels is the best way to go about it. I will not bash anyone for their thoughts on this matter cause in the long run we are all turning up with the same results, a way of keeping our animals that we care for fed and happy. We raise cows, pigs and lambs ext for meat, it is unfortunatley the same circle of life that goes on in the snake trade.

Again just my opinions

Kim
N,A,R,C

Well said
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Carbon DIoxide does not compete with oxygen-heme binding in hemoglobin. Carbon MONOxide, however, does compete with oxygen in regards to the binding to the heme group, and does have a greater affinity for the heme group than oxygen. If CO2 competed with oxygen for the same binding sites we would all be dead...

My Bad that is right.. I did have the two confused. So does that mean that CO2 comsumption would be safe in the amounts present in a gassed rat?
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Obviously it is safe for the snake. Would people still be doing it if it killed the snakes. CO2, like I said pushes the soda and beer, if there was any danger they wouldn't use it.